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Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??
- Thread starter katiemygirl
- Start date
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Agree! But they are each spoken of separately in the Scriptures. My point was that WE, the saved, the church are the "exclusive channel," for God. God sent His Son Jesus. Jesus was His representative on earth. All christians are ambassadors for Christ. We speak on His behalf. God's word is our source.
The WTO Governing Body IS NOT God's exclusive channel. That is a lie perpetrated by JW's. The church is the pillar and ground of the truth, and the church is the saved......ALL of the saved. God gave each of us the ability to read and understand His will. He didn't give it to only a select few.
PS You're preaching to the choir.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
I think this is more accurately said as, "the GB promises them the "PROSPECT" of paradise earth if they stay loyal to the slave." The great crowed are not taught that they have any promise of anything. They are taught that they have no part in the New Covenant, because Jesus only said that to the 12 Apostles at the last supper. Only the anointed have the forgiveness of sins through Jesus' blood. Everyone else "MIGHT" prove to be Abraham's seed, if they come to the "ORGANIZATION" for salvation.
Everyone has the prospect of life. You need not be a Jehovah's Witnesses to fear God for righteousness sake.
Acts 10: 34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Romans 2:14
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law
The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that to do what is right every person must submit themselves to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
What a sad commentary. Imagine going thru life thinking that you MIGHT prove to be Abraham's seed.
I thank God for His truth and the knowledge that I am saved. I am of the seed of Abraham.
ALL christians are Abraham's seed. Paul assures us of this in his letter to the Galatians in Chapter 3.
26For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes. 28There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.
If you have been baptized into Christ, you belong to Christ. God's promise to Abraham belongs to YOU.
JW's contradict the word of God.
There are not two classes of christians. We are ONE body the church, the saved. We are ALL equal in the eyes of God.
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Someone from The Watchtower hath provoked me.
He says that my saying "the governing body does not teach comprehension" is an "attack". Good! Because I wanted to share what I know about the beginning of the Jehovah's Witnesses which they say happened when Jesus found them to be "faithful and discreet".
The first Bible Student "Pastor" Russell filed a lawsuit against another member of the clergy J. J. Ross for "defamatory libel". Ross said of Russell these things:
From the book The Kingdom of the Cults by Walter R. Martin (page 38: para 1) ""Ross assailed Russell's teachings as revealed in the "Studies of The Scriptures" as "the destructive doctrines of one man who is neither a scholar nor a theologian" Mr. Ross scathingly denounced Russell's whole system as "anti-rational, anti-scientific, anti-Biblical, anti-Christian and a deplorable perversion of the gospel of God's Dear Son".....
......(page 38 par 3) ""Pastor" Russell did not give any evidence to substantiate his case and the only evidence offered was Russell's own statements, made under oath and cross-examination by Ross's lawyer, Counsellor Staunton. By denying Ross's charges Russell automatically claimed high scholastic ascendancy, recognized theological training (systematic and historical), working knowledge of the dead languages (Greek, Hebrew, ect.) and valid ordination of a recognized body (page 18). To each part of Mr. Ross's pamphlet (and all was read) Russell entered vigorous denials, with the exception of the 'Miricle Wheat Scandal" which he affirmed as having "a grain of truth in a sense" to it (page 17). "Pastor" Russell had at last made a serious mistake. He had testified under oath before Almighty God, and had sworn to tell "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." He was soon to regret his testimony as a perjurer, an unpleasant experience for the "Pastor" which more than explains his aversion to the witness chair. .....
( page 39 para 5)
......
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - "Do you know the Greek alphabet?"
Answer (Russell) - "Oh yes."
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - "Can you tell me the correct letters if you see them?"
Answer (Russell) - "Some of them, I might make a mistake on some of them."
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - "Would you tell me the names of those on top of the page, page 447 I have got here?"
Answer (Russell) - "Well, I don't know that I would be able to."
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - You can't tell what those letters are , look at them and see if you know?"
Answer (Russell) - "My way..." [he was interrupted at this point and not allowed to explain]
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - Are you familiar with the Greek language?"
Answer (Russell) - "No."
My point is telling the truth is not attacking. Attacking is making bad things up about a person.
I was a JWs for almost 20 years I KNOW they do not teach comprehension. It is actually against the rule of the society to comprehend anything different than the governing body does.
He says that my saying "the governing body does not teach comprehension" is an "attack". Good! Because I wanted to share what I know about the beginning of the Jehovah's Witnesses which they say happened when Jesus found them to be "faithful and discreet".
The first Bible Student "Pastor" Russell filed a lawsuit against another member of the clergy J. J. Ross for "defamatory libel". Ross said of Russell these things:
From the book The Kingdom of the Cults by Walter R. Martin (page 38: para 1) ""Ross assailed Russell's teachings as revealed in the "Studies of The Scriptures" as "the destructive doctrines of one man who is neither a scholar nor a theologian" Mr. Ross scathingly denounced Russell's whole system as "anti-rational, anti-scientific, anti-Biblical, anti-Christian and a deplorable perversion of the gospel of God's Dear Son".....
......(page 38 par 3) ""Pastor" Russell did not give any evidence to substantiate his case and the only evidence offered was Russell's own statements, made under oath and cross-examination by Ross's lawyer, Counsellor Staunton. By denying Ross's charges Russell automatically claimed high scholastic ascendancy, recognized theological training (systematic and historical), working knowledge of the dead languages (Greek, Hebrew, ect.) and valid ordination of a recognized body (page 18). To each part of Mr. Ross's pamphlet (and all was read) Russell entered vigorous denials, with the exception of the 'Miricle Wheat Scandal" which he affirmed as having "a grain of truth in a sense" to it (page 17). "Pastor" Russell had at last made a serious mistake. He had testified under oath before Almighty God, and had sworn to tell "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." He was soon to regret his testimony as a perjurer, an unpleasant experience for the "Pastor" which more than explains his aversion to the witness chair. .....
( page 39 para 5)
......
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - "Do you know the Greek alphabet?"
Answer (Russell) - "Oh yes."
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - "Can you tell me the correct letters if you see them?"
Answer (Russell) - "Some of them, I might make a mistake on some of them."
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - "Would you tell me the names of those on top of the page, page 447 I have got here?"
Answer (Russell) - "Well, I don't know that I would be able to."
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - You can't tell what those letters are , look at them and see if you know?"
Answer (Russell) - "My way..." [he was interrupted at this point and not allowed to explain]
Question: (Attorney Staunton) - Are you familiar with the Greek language?"
Answer (Russell) - "No."
My point is telling the truth is not attacking. Attacking is making bad things up about a person.
I was a JWs for almost 20 years I KNOW they do not teach comprehension. It is actually against the rule of the society to comprehend anything different than the governing body does.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
To help innocent victims see who is telling the truth about Jehovah's Witnesses and who is not:
Insight In The Scriptures, Volume 2, page 791, under the topic, “Resurrection”, published by the WTB&TS
An Undeserved Kindness of God. The provision of a resurrection for humankind is indeed an undeserved kindness of Jehovah God, for he was not obligated to provide a resurrection. Love for the world of mankind moved him to give his only-begotten Son so that millions, yes, even thousands of millions who have died without a real knowledge of God might have opportunity to know and love him, and so that those who love and serve him can have this hope and encouragement to faithful endurance, even as far as death. (Joh 3:16) The apostle Paul comforts fellow Christians with the resurrection hope, writing to the congregation at Thessalonica about those of the congregation who had died and who had hope of a heavenly resurrection: “Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping in death; that you may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus God will bring with him.”—1Th 4:13, 14.
Likewise, for those faithful to God who died with hope of life on earth under God’s Messianic Kingdom, and also for others who have not come to know God, Christians should not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. When Sheol (Hades) is opened, those in there will come out. The Bible mentions many who have gone there, including the people of ancient Egypt, Assyria, Elam, Meshech, Tubal, Edom, and Sidon. (Eze 32:18-31) Jesus himself said that the people of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom would be on hand for Judgment Day, some of the pagans being more likely to repent than many to whom Jesus himself preached in Bethsaida, Chorazin, and Capernaum.—Mt 11:20-24; Lu 10:13-15.
Insight In The Scriptures, Volume 2, page 791, under the topic, “Resurrection”, published by the WTB&TS
An Undeserved Kindness of God. The provision of a resurrection for humankind is indeed an undeserved kindness of Jehovah God, for he was not obligated to provide a resurrection. Love for the world of mankind moved him to give his only-begotten Son so that millions, yes, even thousands of millions who have died without a real knowledge of God might have opportunity to know and love him, and so that those who love and serve him can have this hope and encouragement to faithful endurance, even as far as death. (Joh 3:16) The apostle Paul comforts fellow Christians with the resurrection hope, writing to the congregation at Thessalonica about those of the congregation who had died and who had hope of a heavenly resurrection: “Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping in death; that you may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus God will bring with him.”—1Th 4:13, 14.
Likewise, for those faithful to God who died with hope of life on earth under God’s Messianic Kingdom, and also for others who have not come to know God, Christians should not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. When Sheol (Hades) is opened, those in there will come out. The Bible mentions many who have gone there, including the people of ancient Egypt, Assyria, Elam, Meshech, Tubal, Edom, and Sidon. (Eze 32:18-31) Jesus himself said that the people of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom would be on hand for Judgment Day, some of the pagans being more likely to repent than many to whom Jesus himself preached in Bethsaida, Chorazin, and Capernaum.—Mt 11:20-24; Lu 10:13-15.
Shak34
Active Member
I'm sorry I might have missed something, but when was resurrection brought up?
cataway
Well-Known Member
there are people that will be going to heaven and people that will not be going the people not going will be living even forever here on earth . whats wrong with that?
The way I read her was she says according to JWs some are gifted God's grace (those being 144,00, according to JWs) and all others must work for their salvation, according to JWs.
I think he posts the resurrection hope of the JWs to show us they are really who they say they are, God's exclusive channel, because no other group teaches it. But God will resurrect who God will resurrect despite people knowing about it or not knowing about it, I am sure.
I suppose he is saying we should honor what lies they tell seeing that they are so special knowing about the resurrection.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Let's look at the only verse in the Bible which speaks of a heavenly calling:
Hebrews 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"
Taken alone that could be interpreted as saying that they were going literally to heaven to live. But that seems weird in that it sounds like the very place they are from is not good enough for them as their home, yet they will be earth's kingly rulers? And as that does sound highly suspicious right up front, perhaps we ought to examine the context closer to see if there is another way this might possibly be viewed?
(consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;") Hebrews 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."
The heavenly calling seems there to belong to Christ and those who will be the kings right here on earth will be the partakers of Christ's right to rule as high king over this earth. Thus it can be said that they are partakers of the heavenly calling for that reason alone, having nothing whatsoever to do with their needing to go and actually live in heaven.
Think outside the box. Ideas can box us in if we let them, so that we become unable to see the other possible ways to view such texts.
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
That is why I like a topical examination of the Bible in addition to a contexual one. Add please to this part in Hebrews 3 what is found at 1 Corinthians 15:44-54.
Here is a quote of part of this section:
"The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one. But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption."
- 1 Cor 15:47-50
This points to them no longer having bodies made of "dust", that is "flesh and blood", but instead having bodies that do not need constant renewing. Since they will be made neither of "flesh" nor "blood" they can not be human when they are with Christ, any more than he is human today.
Recognizing why Hebrews 3:4 was included, we understand that Jesus is not faithful as a son over Jesus' own house anymore than Moses was faithful over Moses' own house, but in each case it was God's house. Was this in relation to the kingship? No. In this particular metaphor it is in relation to the priesthood.
"As you come to [Jesus], a living stone rejected by men but chosen, precious to God, you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Christ Jesus." - 1 Peter 2:4,5
As part of the priesthood we can confirm that the location of Jesus and this "holy priesthood" will be in heaven with earth being under its jurisdiction.
"Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister (or "public servant.") of the holy place and the true tent, which Jehovah set up, and not man....If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are already men who offer the gifts according to the Law. These men are offering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things; just as Moses, when about to construct the tent, was given the divine command: 'See that you make all the things after their pattern that was shown to you in the mountain.' But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry (or "public service.") because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises." - Hebrew 8:1-2,4-6
The shadow's reality was already in heaven in the first century C.E. These under-priests will go where the true tent is to be with our High Priest Jesus.
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Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Have you got their number?
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Kolibri, If indeed you are wrong on this point and I sincerely believe you are: I want you to know up front that I don't believe that your being wrong on that one point speaks anything at all bad about you as a God fearing people, no more so that the Thessalonian congregation's premature excitement that the end was immediately upon them there at 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. I figure that eventually issues as this one concerning heaven, everyone who remains to see it will then know for certain what is what, anyway. It is not a big deal worth creating an uproar among brethren. But so long as you are willing I will explain it more thoroughly to you.
Here is my post to which you are responding:
And now let's begin dissecting your evaluations:
You said concerning my post: “Add please to this part in Hebrews 3 what is found at 1 Corinthians 15:44-54.”
OK, let's break it down by placing related thoughts with related thoughts:
("The first man is from the earth and made of dust;” “Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust;” “ And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust..”)
Now you tell me, whose image we bear? Do we bear the newly created Adam's image that Jesus bore? Or, did we bear the image of the corrupted Adam?
(“the second man is from heaven.” “and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly.” “we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.”)
Look very carefully at that above: “We will bear the image of” “the second man .. from heaven.” so that we will be like that second man. That man (in the flesh) was heavenly in his nature, meaning holy and pure, undefiled, not corrupted like us who bear the image of the first man who corrupted himself and his flesh. It is about our spiritual nature, not about our literal body type: 2 Peter 1:4 “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
Paul's focus is clearly on Jesus in the flesh while he was a man. You cannot afford to miss that point or I may as well forget trying to explain it to you. So take time to be sure you understand it.
(“But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.")
Of course flesh and blood cannot inherit anything from God. Our flesh and blood is not how we image God, we image God in our spirit by walking in a holy spirit all credit to him as the source of the wisdom which makes and keeps that spirit holy. That is why it also says, "nor does corruption inherit incorruption." Paul's words are all about corrupted man born of the corrupted first man, no longer being like that first man in his corruption but like the second man in his holiness, free from corruption (heavenly of nature).
So ought it really be surprising that we can only inherit the kingdom by becoming that new man whose spirit is made holy by walking only in God's wisdom after the model of his spirit? That in no way means flesh and blood cannot be in God's kingdom for we will bear the image of “the second man”.
I am going to pause there, but I will take you through everything from start to finish if you remain willing to speak about it.
To Be Continued......
Here is my post to which you are responding:
And now let's begin dissecting your evaluations:
You said concerning my post: “Add please to this part in Hebrews 3 what is found at 1 Corinthians 15:44-54.”
OK, let's break it down by placing related thoughts with related thoughts:
("The first man is from the earth and made of dust;” “Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust;” “ And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust..”)
Now you tell me, whose image we bear? Do we bear the newly created Adam's image that Jesus bore? Or, did we bear the image of the corrupted Adam?
(“the second man is from heaven.” “and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly.” “we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.”)
Look very carefully at that above: “We will bear the image of” “the second man .. from heaven.” so that we will be like that second man. That man (in the flesh) was heavenly in his nature, meaning holy and pure, undefiled, not corrupted like us who bear the image of the first man who corrupted himself and his flesh. It is about our spiritual nature, not about our literal body type: 2 Peter 1:4 “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
Paul's focus is clearly on Jesus in the flesh while he was a man. You cannot afford to miss that point or I may as well forget trying to explain it to you. So take time to be sure you understand it.
(“But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.")
Of course flesh and blood cannot inherit anything from God. Our flesh and blood is not how we image God, we image God in our spirit by walking in a holy spirit all credit to him as the source of the wisdom which makes and keeps that spirit holy. That is why it also says, "nor does corruption inherit incorruption." Paul's words are all about corrupted man born of the corrupted first man, no longer being like that first man in his corruption but like the second man in his holiness, free from corruption (heavenly of nature).
So ought it really be surprising that we can only inherit the kingdom by becoming that new man whose spirit is made holy by walking only in God's wisdom after the model of his spirit? That in no way means flesh and blood cannot be in God's kingdom for we will bear the image of “the second man”.
I am going to pause there, but I will take you through everything from start to finish if you remain willing to speak about it.
To Be Continued......
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katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
It's not Biblical truth.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
I have not detected any crusade from you. And that makes your request feel more like a discussion than a debate. I will do a bit more research on this and send you a private message when I am about ready to post a reply. I don't normally watch this thread but infrequently check it out from time to time. Also I have a part on our weekly school at the KH this week that needs my attention. Between that and this being 'figure out and pay bills day for the month.' I am not sure I will give this the attention you requested for a couple of days. But I will.
Nada
#
How is it not biblical truth if it says it in the holy scriptures clear as day?
Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
So here we have passages explaining that earth has a purpose.It also explains that those who follow God commands, and are not part of those who have heavenly hope,will reside on earth forever, as intended from the beginning with Adam and Eve.An inheritance is received at the end.
So here we have passages that tell us earth has a purpose and that is to be filled.
Those with heavenly hope will reside in heaven with Jesus.This is where Gods' government is.
Here are some more scriptures that shed light on this issue.I just happened to be explaining this very thing yesterday to someone else.
Heavenly hope was given to those who walked with Christ and received the holy spirit.They were called the Royal Priesthood.
- John 14:2, 3
2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places.Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.
Here is the first reference to heaven by Jesus to his apostles.This is a promise of heavenly hope.- Hebrews 10:19, 20
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh,
We know from scripture that no man has ever gone to heaven before Jesus.- John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
So from this we can see that only Jesus has come from and gone back to heaven.
- John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
- We also have to keep in mind that Jesus was talking to the 1st century christians that followed God.These that were blessed with holy spirit,such as those who were at the Pentecost of 33 C.E. These are the ones with heavenly hope.All others who follow God shall reside on earth forever.It is explained in the holy scriptures.
- Hebrews 10:19, 20
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
An inheritance comes at the end. Those with heavenly hope will reside with Jesus in heaven where Gods government is.All others shall share in the work needed to be done on earth to restore it to its original state after all is complete.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
It's false teaching. JW's have created two classes of christians. This is not Biblical.
Do you have faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God? Have you been baptized into Christ? Do you belong to Christ?
If your answer to these questions is YES, then you are a child of God. You have put on Christ. You are in Christ. You are Abraham's seed, and an heir according to the promise.
Galatians 3
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
If your answer to my questions were YES, then you are a part of ONE BODY.
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.