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Do Athiests have morals?

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
If that is all you got out of it.
Do you see greediness as moral or immoral behavior and why?
Immoral because the negative effects of greed in a population generally outweigh that some people might profit from it.
Survival requires a group to be able to control the resources necessary for survival. The stability of a group is dependent on it's control of resources. As long as it can successfully exploit the resources of other groups, it can survive.
The groups chances of survival also depends on how it "exploits" the resources of other groups, whether by force or by mutual agreement.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Exactly that is why it would much such a poor basis for morality. Not that you had said it should be used.

The 4% of us that are gay create 60% of new aids cases. I do not think the harm between the two is equivalent. I don't know it is a choice or not, that issue has not been settled, you may be right but you cannot know you are. What is certain is that acting on the impulse is a choice.

It does not have to be moral, just, right, or true to be universal. I prefer the former and care not for the latter. I agree there is no God necessary for Hitler to have won the war and made his practices universal.

Ok so now for the argument. Even if we can reproduce we would still probably die off if we were all gay because the practice seems to be a magnet for destruction of all types. From sexual violence to STDs. If 4% of us that are gay create 60% of new aids cases if 100% of us were gay we might just explode on the spot.
I think this is nonsense. Any person who has ever been attracted to any other person knows that sexual orientation is not a choice.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Exactly that is why it would much such a poor basis for morality. Not that you had said it should be used.

The 4% of us that are gay create 60% of new aids cases. I do not think the harm between the two is equivalent. I don't know it is a choice or not, that issue has not been settled, you may be right but you cannot know you are. What is certain is that acting on the impulse is a choice.

It does not have to be moral, just, right, or true to be universal. I prefer the former and care not for the latter. I agree there is no God necessary for Hitler to have won the war and made his practices universal.

Ok so now for the argument. Even if we can reproduce we would still probably die off if we were all gay because the practice seems to be a magnet for destruction of all types. From sexual violence to STDs. If 4% of us that are gay create 60% of new aids cases if 100% of us were gay we might just explode on the spot.
As you well know, these statistics you keep citing only apply within the US and are therefore incomplete and not anywhere close to telling the whole story.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Exactly that is why it would much such a poor basis for morality. Not that you had said it should be used.

The 4% of us that are gay create 60% of new aids cases. I do not think the harm between the two is equivalent. I don't know it is a choice or not, that issue has not been settled, you may be right but you cannot know you are. What is certain is that acting on the impulse is a choice.

It does not have to be moral, just, right, or true to be universal. I prefer the former and care not for the latter. I agree there is no God necessary for Hitler to have won the war and made his practices universal.

Ok so now for the argument. Even if we can reproduce we would still probably die off if we were all gay because the practice seems to be a magnet for destruction of all types. From sexual violence to STDs. If 4% of us that are gay create 60% of new aids cases if 100% of us were gay we might just explode on the spot.
Let's just assume that your god does exist, and that Hitler won the war. How are we in a different boat than if there were no god?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The most educated nation on earth, and one of the most stable and functional, was Hitler's economic and military powerhouse of about 1940. It had about 4 years of life in it left. Plus your going to have to yet again decide what sort of functionality you want, what sort of stability you prefer.




Then why have libraries full of rules about war? If survival was actually our legal goal we would have outlawed war thousands of years ago, not systematized it and made it more terrible than ever.

I will ask one last time, find me a single legal text from a single successful society that even claimed we derive our laws directly from evolutionary principles. Most of humanities laws were written long before anyone ever heard of evolution much less what was true of it. In fact discovering evolution did not change legal principles one bit.
More terrible than ever? We now have rules about how to treat prisoners of war or civilians, rules against using poisonous gases during war, rules concerning torture, etc. Seems to me like we're going in the opposite direction from the one you describe.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I have no idea what you mean by this demand and "evolutionary principles". Please be more specific.
Name any society where if you look up the historical basis or legal theory upon which they created their legal codes, where evolution is cited as the foundation. As I said: none have, the closest was Hitler, and none probably ever will because it is a horrible idea.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Atheism is just an absence of belief in gods. Nothing to do with "objective morality" or any kind of morality.
I Know that is why I said objective morality can be compatible with an atheist but it can't be found within atheism.



Theism doesn't have anything to do with "objective morality" either.
Yes it does, God's eternal nature determines what is right or wrong, what has value or none, what rights are, if any actual equality exists. It is not a mater of opinion, not even God's and is there for objective. There cannot be a more objective source possible than God. If you have concocted a semantic technicality to claim he is not objective then the word no longer has any meaning.

Theism is just a belief in god(s).Theist or atheist doesn't matter, we both evolved a survival instinct. So nature by way of evolution and natural selection programmed us to see survival as "inherently right by nature" and non-survival "inherently wrong by nature". Which is why we instinctively run out of the way of an oncoming car. We don't run out of the way of an oncoming car because some regulations say we should but do it instinctively because the act is "inherently right by nature." Acting in accordance with the Golden Rule is "inherently right by nature" because it enhances our chances of survival.
Survival of one species (namely us) at the expense of all other life forms on the planet is not moral, it is selfish speciesm. However whatever it is, it is impossible that it is an objective moral. Nature does not contain one atom with a moral property, it is 100% amoral, and it can never tell a single being what it 'should do". That does not mean humans cannot invent subjective ethics and call that morality, but it isn't morally objectively true. We ruin out of the way of a car because we not want to be hit, but what we want cannot produce a single objective moral fact.

I have never understood why non-theists take a bible with several thousand moral duties in it and reduce it down to the Golden rule.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Name any society where if you look up the historical basis or legal theory upon which they created their legal codes, where evolution is cited as the foundation. As I said: none have, the closest was Hitler, and none probably ever will because it is a horrible idea.
Evolution and natural selection produced our survival instinct. We have legal codes because they increase the survival chances of our society and us. We have traffic laws because they decrease the risk of people getting injured or dying in traffic. We have a judicial system and laws to deal with and prevent immoral people from injuring or killing us. Legal codes all based on our survival instinct that came from evolution.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I have already blew holes in this argument and you have stated you didn't want to get back into it so I can leave it at this or I can re-hash it again.
Leave it.

True. But our own moral compasses would have eventually shifted back. At least that is my belief. A faith in humanity if you will. But Hitler couldn't actually make his "morality" universal. He could kill anyone who disagreed with him and made it law of the land but even Stalin didn't make his morality universal he made it law. Which are very different things
These are of course hypotheticals. I am using one where Hitler won the war and killed off anyone who disagreed with him. His morality would be universal and completely wrong. IOW universality has nothing to do with being right. This is less so for experiential claims. If a thousand people go to the North Pole and 980 of them say it is cold then it is pretty certain, but for moral theory popularity does not matter at all.

Doubtful. Nothing about being gay makes you promiscuous. If you were suddenly gay tomorrow for example that wouldn't make you go out and have unprotected sex with anything with a pair of testicles. There are sociological implications and societal constructs that has led to an unfair setup for this particular demographic. If 100% of our population was homosexual then I doubt they would suffer from the negative aspects that were the actual cause of the high spread of HIV. Also this isn't really part of the argument but as a fun fact roughly 1 in 4 people are immune to the effects of HIV. They can still pass it on but won't show symptoms or highly reduced symptoms. So even for the sake of argument if everyone in the world (strait or not) had HIV we would still survive as evolved beings.
I don't know if it is causal but higher promiscuity rates and sexual violence rates are higher for homosexuality. It may be as simple as the "gate way" theory. If you try dope your likely to try other drugs. Or the theological theory that and single immorality breeds bad moral judgments in other areas.

Regardless I am going to leave homosexuality as a subject as this point.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Name any society where if you look up the historical basis or legal theory upon which they created their legal codes, where evolution is cited as the foundation. As I said: none have, the closest was Hitler, and none probably ever will because it is a horrible idea.
You're talking about an idea that originated in the first decade of the 20th century and has since been eradicated. The concept of radical Social Darwinism, while not necessarily evil in it's premise, has not taken root anywhere - and that's not because the holy and righteous religious populations have rooted them but because even us heathen moral-less atheists realize that the human experience is more than the sum of it's parts.

If you're going to play this game you need to get some better toys.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Yes it does, God's eternal nature determines what is right or wrong, what has value or none, what rights are, if any actual equality exists. It is not a mater of opinion, not even God's and is there for objective. There cannot be a more objective source possible than God. If you have concocted a semantic technicality to claim he is not objective then the word no longer has any meaning.
Theism has nothing to do with moral codes. A person can believe in any god(s) he like and they don't need to supply him with any "moral codes" for him to be a theist. All that is required by a theist is that he believes in the existence of one or more gods. That's it. Theism has nothing to do with morals. A theist may believe in a religion with a god that supplies him with moral codes, but that is not a requirement for a theist.
Survival of one species (namely us) at the expense of all other life forms on the planet is not moral,
True because we can't survive without a healthy stable ecosystem.
Nature does not contain one atom with a moral property, it is 100% amoral, and it can never tell a single being what it 'should do".
So if your survival instinct makes you jump out of the way of an oncoming car to avoid injury or death that is not something you "should do"? Should you have let him run over you instead?
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
I think this is nonsense. Any person who has ever been attracted to any other person knows that sexual orientation is not a choice.
The fact so many switch sides over the course of their life and so many overcome being homosexual begs to differ. This is not going to be settled by a popularity poll anyway and I am not going to re-open this call.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
As you well know, these statistics you keep citing only apply within the US and are therefore incomplete and not anywhere close to telling the whole story.
I agree and have specified than many times. I however have no think this problem reverses it's self by geography and I am not going to have this same debate again. It's like tunnel out of one prison to find you tunneled into another.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Let's just assume that your god does exist, and that Hitler won the war. How are we in a different boat than if there were no god?
I believe my God stopped Hitler so I can't consider illogical hypotheticals. It's like a round square or a rock so heavy he can't lift. I am not going to force an explanation for how God did an logical impossibility. It could be than as in the days of Noah God destroyed the evil once it permeated all level of every society but I have no idea what would happen.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
These are of course hypotheticals. I am using one where Hitler won the war and killed off anyone who disagreed with him. His morality would be universal and completely wrong. IOW universality has nothing to do with being right. This is less so for experiential claims. If a thousand people go to the North Pole and 980 of them say it is cold then it is pretty certain, but for moral theory popularity does not matter at all..

Some things can be universally true which would mean that one could argue the point anywhere.

Here is an example. Is it universally true that you shouldn't put your hand in fire? I am pretty sure that I can convince people not to stick their hand in fire all around the world. That is universally accepted as a bad thing to do. There is no civilization or opinion that is held that we should stick our hands in fire as a good idea.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
More terrible than ever? We now have rules about how to treat prisoners of war or civilians, rules against using poisonous gases during war, rules concerning torture, etc. Seems to me like we're going in the opposite direction from the one you describe.
Yes we have rules, but if necessary we will break them all. In fact they are broken every single day. I will tell you how good these rules are. In the 80's most people do not know we came as close to full nuclear war than ever. No one cared about rules, no one cared about even survival, it came down to one technician in one USSR launch detection facility. He was asked if his gut feeling was that the signals showed a launch or a malfunction. I don't think he knew either way but guessed malfunction and so we were all not incinerated. We have not fought a world war since WW2 but if the way minor engagements are carried out indicates how WW3 will be prosecuted then it will truly be even worse. There is an old saying that we don't know exactly what WW3 will be fought with (we have many thing the German's only dreamed of) but WW4 will be fought with clubs. I was not aware of half of what we actually have even as a soldier but some of them are so bad we cannot even discuss them. Things that make gas ovens look like a vacation.
 
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