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Does the universe need intelligence to order it?
- Thread starter Robert.Evans
- Start date
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I force them to listen to me.
This works because I exist and so do they.
It doesn't work on 'you'....because 'you' don't exist.
In what way does GNG not exist?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Have you read this thread?
His word salad is the dust of his argument.
He leans to it, as he has nothing else to offer.
But he might admit it if you ask him.
He does not exist......his stance is that.....and nothing more.
Nothing more than dust.
Oh, heavens no. It's too long.
KK. Dust is our friend. It gathers everywhere, and things that gather to us likes us.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Did you know?....the dust on your furniture....IS you.
The world is me.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
"No-one was there to view creation"
No one had to be.
But we have a picture of it.
RELEASE: 03-064
NASA RELEASES STUNNING IMAGES OF OUR INFANT UNIVERSE
NASA today released the best "baby picture" of the Universe ever taken; the image contains such stunning detail that it may be one of the most important scientific results of recent years.
Scientists using NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), during a sweeping 12-month observation of the entire sky, captured the new cosmic portrait, capturing the afterglow of the big bang, called the cosmic microwave background.
"We've captured the infant universe in sharp focus, and from this portrait we can now describe the universe with unprecedented accuracy," said Dr. Charles L. Bennett of the Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC), Greenbelt Md., and the WMAP Principal Investigator. "The data are solid, a real gold mine," he said.
One of the biggest surprises revealed in the data is the first generation of stars to shine in the universe first ignited only 200 million years after the big bang, much earlier than many scientists had expected.
In addition, the new portrait precisely pegs the age of the universe at 13.7 billion years old, with a remarkably small one percent margin of error.
The WMAP team found that the big bang and Inflation theories continue to ring true. The contents of the universe include 4 percent atoms (ordinary matter), 23 percent of an unknown type of dark matter, and 73 percent of a mysterious dark energy. The new measurements even shed light on the nature of the dark energy, which acts as a sort of an anti-gravity.
"These numbers represent a milestone in how we view our universe," said Dr. Anne Kinney, NASA director for astronomy and physics. "This is a true turning point for cosmology."
The light we see today, as the cosmic microwave background, has traveled over 13 billion years to reach us. Within this light are infinitesimal patterns that mark the seeds of what later grew into clusters of galaxies and the vast structure we see all around us.
Patterns in the big bang afterglow were frozen in place only 380,000 years after the big bang, a number nailed down by this latest observation. These patterns are tiny temperature differences within this extraordinarily evenly dispersed microwave light bathing the universe, which now averages a frigid 2.73 degrees above absolute zero temperature. WMAP resolves slight temperature fluctuations, which vary by only millionths of a degree.
Theories about the evolution of the universe make specific predictions about the extent of these temperature patterns. Like a detective, the WMAP team compared the unique "fingerprint" of patterns imprinted on this ancient light with fingerprints predicted by various cosmic theories and found a match.
WMAP 1 Year Mission Results Press Release
WMAP 9-YEAR RESULTS RELEASED
WMAP has refined its measurements with a final 2 years of data.
Credit: NASA/WMAP Science Team
The WMAP science team has determined, to a high degree of accuracy and precision, not only the age of the universe, but also the density of atoms; the density of all other non-atomic matter; the epoch when the first stars started to shine; the "lumpiness" of the universe, and how that "lumpiness" depends on scale size. In short, when used alone (with no other measurements), WMAP observations have improved knowledge of these six numbers by a total factor of 68,000, thereby converting cosmology from a field of wild speculation to a precision science.
WMAP's "baby picture of the universe" maps the afterglow of the hot, young universe at a time when it was only 375,000 years old, when it was a tiny fraction of its current age of 13.77 billion years. The patterns in this baby picture were used to limit what could have possibly happened earlier, and what happened in the billions of year since that early time. The (mis-named) "big bang" framework of cosmology, which posits that the young universe was hot and dense, and has been expanding and cooling ever since, is now solidly supported, according to WMAP.
WMAP 9 Year Mission Results
apophenia
Well-Known Member
You might say that we are viewing it now.
Was creation the first micro-second ? The first second ?
Where do we draw the line ?
And since 'the Big Bang' was not the arising of something out of nothing, 'creation' would actually be the genesis of the point singularity itself - not 'what subsequently happened'.
It is simply wrong to call the microsecond (or whatever) after the presumed beginning of the expansion 'creation'.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
"Was creation the first micro-second ? The first second ?"
"What is the smallest unit of time you can conceive? A second? A millisecond? Hard to say seeing as how time is relative. Under the right circumstances, hours can fly by and seconds can feel like a lifetime. But unfortunately for physicists, time is not something that can be delt with so philosophically. And since they deal with cosmological forces both infinitesimally large and small, they need units that can objectively measure them. When it comes to dealing with the small, Planck Time is the measurement of choice. Named after German physicist Max Planck, the founder of quantum theory, a unit of Planck time is the time it takes for light to travel, in a vacuum, a single unit of Planck length. Taken together, they part of the larger system of natural units known as Planck units."
Physics has divided the second into quantum lengths called plancks and they are very, very small units of time. As a matter of fact there is roughly a hundred million trillion trillion trillion plancks in a second. A planck is about the time it would take a photon travelling at the speed of light to cross a distance equal to the Planck length. This is the ‘quantum of time’, the smallest measurement of time that has any meaning, and is equal to 10-43 seconds.
1x10 (to the 43rd power)th of a second
or
100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th of a second
When something is this small it is very difficult to wrap your mind around it.
Gary Cox, Science Fiction/Fact Blog: Planck Time: Concerning the Big Bang Theory-The First 3 Seconds of Creation
So we can go back in time 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th of a second then math breaks down as does everything.
"Where do we draw the line ?"
We don't get too.
"And since 'the Big Bang' was not the arising of something out of nothing, 'creation' would actually be the genesis of the point singularity itself - not 'what subsequently happened'."
There in NO NO-Thing. Even i the vacuum of space. Recently some Physicists have shown how the bang could have happened from virtual particles.
"singularity"
Interesting you used that word. They don't know, but since everything breaks down that is why they use singularity. That however is not actually part of the bing bang theory, the theory is only the universe was very hot and dense in the past. Which is exactly what WMAP shows above. They are also collecting data from a the NEW Planck, which is finer detail then WMAP.
"It is simply wrong to call the microsecond (or whatever) after the presumed beginning of the expansion 'creation'."
what?
shawn001
Well-Known Member
There is also the Anthropic principle in cosmology.
godnotgod
Thou art That
The comparison is not saying they are alike in content, but only that they both share the fact of indoctrination, whether you like it or not. You see? People who are socially indoctrinated never think of themselves in that way. It's only other people or groups who are indoctrinated. We, of course, are free, aren't we?
Like the Nazis, Americans indoctrinate school children into a nationalist mindset with the final result that both go willingly to their deaths firmly believing the empty slogans and banners under which they fight for their country. Muslims do it in deep religious fervor for their deity.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
No, it 'works' because if they don't listen to you, there will be serious consequences. You are conditioning your children to live in fear. Once you teach them that force and fear are ways to control others, they will exercise it on them as well. It doesn't work on me because I'll just laugh at you, or maybe I'll play your game and force you to listen to me.
apophenia
Well-Known Member
The Big Bang is a continuation of the reality which preceded it - 'virtual particles', singularity or whatever.
It is not 'the beginning'.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
psychoslice
Veteran Member
The universe itself is intelligence, how could the universe do what it does if it wasn't, we are also all born intelligent, that is until we are conditioned and programmed by our parents, education, and society.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
"No-one was there to view creation"
No one had to be.
But we have a picture of it.
RELEASE: 03-064
NASA RELEASES STUNNING IMAGES OF OUR INFANT UNIVERSE
NASA today released the best "baby picture" of the Universe ever taken; the image contains such stunning detail that it may be one of the most important scientific results of recent years.
Scientists using NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), during a sweeping 12-month observation of the entire sky, captured the new cosmic portrait, capturing the afterglow of the big bang, called the cosmic microwave background.
"We've captured the infant universe in sharp focus, and from this portrait we can now describe the universe with unprecedented accuracy," said Dr. Charles L. Bennett of the Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC), Greenbelt Md., and the WMAP Principal Investigator. "The data are solid, a real gold mine," he said.
One of the biggest surprises revealed in the data is the first generation of stars to shine in the universe first ignited only 200 million years after the big bang, much earlier than many scientists had expected.
In addition, the new portrait precisely pegs the age of the universe at 13.7 billion years old, with a remarkably small one percent margin of error.
The WMAP team found that the big bang and Inflation theories continue to ring true. The contents of the universe include 4 percent atoms (ordinary matter), 23 percent of an unknown type of dark matter, and 73 percent of a mysterious dark energy. The new measurements even shed light on the nature of the dark energy, which acts as a sort of an anti-gravity.
"These numbers represent a milestone in how we view our universe," said Dr. Anne Kinney, NASA director for astronomy and physics. "This is a true turning point for cosmology."
The light we see today, as the cosmic microwave background, has traveled over 13 billion years to reach us. Within this light are infinitesimal patterns that mark the seeds of what later grew into clusters of galaxies and the vast structure we see all around us.
Patterns in the big bang afterglow were frozen in place only 380,000 years after the big bang, a number nailed down by this latest observation. These patterns are tiny temperature differences within this extraordinarily evenly dispersed microwave light bathing the universe, which now averages a frigid 2.73 degrees above absolute zero temperature. WMAP resolves slight temperature fluctuations, which vary by only millionths of a degree.
Theories about the evolution of the universe make specific predictions about the extent of these temperature patterns. Like a detective, the WMAP team compared the unique "fingerprint" of patterns imprinted on this ancient light with fingerprints predicted by various cosmic theories and found a match.
WMAP 1 Year Mission Results Press Release
WMAP 9-YEAR RESULTS RELEASED
WMAP has refined its measurements with a final 2 years of data.
Credit: NASA/WMAP Science Team
The WMAP science team has determined, to a high degree of accuracy and precision, not only the age of the universe, but also the density of atoms; the density of all other non-atomic matter; the epoch when the first stars started to shine; the "lumpiness" of the universe, and how that "lumpiness" depends on scale size. In short, when used alone (with no other measurements), WMAP observations have improved knowledge of these six numbers by a total factor of 68,000, thereby converting cosmology from a field of wild speculation to a precision science.
WMAP's "baby picture of the universe" maps the afterglow of the hot, young universe at a time when it was only 375,000 years old, when it was a tiny fraction of its current age of 13.77 billion years. The patterns in this baby picture were used to limit what could have possibly happened earlier, and what happened in the billions of year since that early time. The (mis-named) "big bang" framework of cosmology, which posits that the young universe was hot and dense, and has been expanding and cooling ever since, is now solidly supported, according to WMAP.
WMAP 9 Year Mission Results
Did any of this confirm Sir Roger Penrose's proposal that leftover background microwave radiation pointed to the existence of previous universes?
apophenia
Well-Known Member
Says me.
And you, actually - well, says the physicists you referred to ...
In other words, the alleged Bang was not the beginning. Not in any of the scientific explanations. It is a continuation.
It's like saying that life begins when you are born. Wrong. Life takes a new name and form when you are born.
You could say "Shawn001" began at such and such a time. Just as you could say "it appears, based on microwave radiation and the red shift that the universe began about 13 billion years ago."
But the origin of Shawn001 is not your birth date. It is all life which preceded you, right back to alleged abiogenesis.
Similarly, the universe only 'began' 13 billion years ago if you define its antecedent as not being 'the universe'.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Good point. 'The Universe' may actually be an endless cycle of 'on' and 'off' phases. In the 'on' phase, there appears to be 'Something', and in the 'off' phase, sheer Nothingness, out of which again comes Everything, the 'off' phase being pure potential, like the light potential of a light bulb just before being switched 'on'.