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Can someone explain the Trinity please...
- Thread starter Youtellme
- Start date
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
It would be nice if there was a point to posting that parable WCV.
Did you wish to discuss something?
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
You are correct...the man Jesus did not exist before Adam, but the Word certainly did. He said that he was in existence before Abraham and that he came down from heaven.
Rev 3:14 calls Jesus "the beginning of God's creation" so that proves to me that he is a created being.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
The scripture says Jesus was the first born of all creation.
The scriptures say everything was made through Jesus, by Jesus, and for Jesus.
Believe, moorea944, believe.
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Wrong.
In Hebrews it clearly states that Jesus is the creator. Anyone has yet to address this blatant declaration of Jesus being in Genesis, as our creator.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Sorry, I beg to differ. The pre-human Jesus was not a creator, but a fabricator of the raw materials that his Father brought into existence.
Proverbs 8 gives us the picture of Father and son working as a team.
Proverbs 8:22-23, 30-31 “The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began......I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race."
Colossians 1:15-17 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
In Genesis this is what is meant by Jehovah saying to his firstborn....."let US make man in OUR image according to our likeness".
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
What does "firstborn" mean to you?
What does "only begotten son" mean?
If you were not blinded by the trinity (or whatever you call it) you would see those statements for what they are.
Creation came "through" Jesus not from him. He is not the originator of creation, but the fabricator of materials brought into existence by the only Creator in existence....who was his Creator too.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
There is a scripture that say the creation has been made THROUGH GOD. Another scripture says that the creation has bee made THROUGH JESUS.
This shows us that God and Jesus are used interchangeable, because they are one and the same. If Jesus were not God, then the Bible would not say the creation was made through him.
gsa
Well-Known Member
This is something that really does fascinate me. It would have been really easy for the tetragrammaton to inspire the authors of Genesis to include some mention of Jesus, to make very clear allusions to the life of Jesus somewhere, anywhere, in the Tanakh.
Yet he is nowhere to be found. No clear reference at all, just lots of tortured re-interpretations of prophecy using a flawed (septuagint) source. The lack of candor and clarity is all the more surprising when you are confronted with the clarity of the Torah.
ImaTroll
Member
the trinity is three gods at the same time, yet not three gods at the same time.
I would like to share what Trinity means to me.
How to explain the concept of God as Trinity to non-Christians? I do not wish to become a super God by defining what Trinity is but see it in a practical way. The Christian concept is that God is Love. Love is Unity. so God is Unity. This Unity unfolds the creation. The dualities that we see in the world are unfoldment of Unity. The another Christian concept is that Love is relationship. Human life is relationship. It is in relationships that we share God and we receive God. It means that we need to see God( better manifestation of God) in the other. It is God( the manifestation of God) in us loving God in the others. It is God in us giving to God in the others. It is God in us receiving God in the others. It means a husband sees God in his wife and a wife sees God in her husband (it may be the most difficult one).The parents see God in their children and the children see God in their parents. A student sees God in the teacher and the teacher sees God in the student. It means our relationships are not a business but become sacred. We do not use others as objects to satisfy us or enrich us materially. Everyone and everything is the manifestation of God. It is God loving God. We are all one in essence and three in appearance, in relationships. Unity and Trinity go together. In every relationship there are three: the husband-wife and the love between them which is binding principle; the lover, the beloved and the love between them; tduj he static, the dynamic and the link between them. This is the message I get when I meditate on the concept of Trinity. This is also message I get from the Eucharist. It is seeing the finite bread and wine as the body and bread of God and sharing with each other in relationships. It is the love of God manifesting in relationships, in the love of neighbour. It is not theoretical Trinity but practical Trinity, living each moment of our life. This way of living I describe as 'unfolding', in opposition to becoming. In Unfolding every action comes from our unity with God and with one another. In becoming, our actions come from our fragmented identity or ego as a means of filling our emptiness. In unfolding, our actions come from our fullness, from our image and likeness of God. In becoming our life is like a barren fig tree. In unfolding our life is 'to be fruitful and multiply'. It is the fruitfulness and multiplication of divine attributes in relationships. Every encounter with the other is a Trinitarian experience.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
I question why so many cannot understand how Jesus, a man sent by YHWH, could not be God.
YHWH came to earth as a man before.
Don't believe me? Read it for yourself. He came to Abraham in Genesis 18. Read it from an interlinear.
YHWH came to earth as a man before.
Don't believe me? Read it for yourself. He came to Abraham in Genesis 18. Read it from an interlinear.
cataway
Well-Known Member
in your opinion are all three equal ..?
Yes, essentially one but functionally different. Masculine and feminine are one in essence but functionally there are different. Water and ice are one in essence but functionally they are different.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Firstborn = a title of preeminence.
Jesus is the preeminent one in all things.
Firstborn can also mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7)
Psalm 89:20, 27 says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . I also shall make him My first-born."
As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Begotten = 1. pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." This is its meaning inHebrews 11:17when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son." (only son with Sarah, only son of covenant)
Begotten = 2. pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied inJohn 3:16
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature(BAGD, 3rd Edition),
John 1:3 says
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
If ALL things were made through Him, wouldn't that also include those "materials" you claim that God supposedly created prior?
Where does it say that God fabricated materials that Jesus in turn used to create the world?
Jesus Christ is fully divine and fully human. If we use the analogy of the Sun and its rays. The rays are different from the core of the Sun. The core is like God and the ray is Christ. Christ is one with God at one level. He is also different from another level. In order to understand this, we also need to describe God: God is a self sustaining being. There can be only one God. Jesus Christ as a physical being cannot be God because he has a beginning and an end. But in the core he is one with God. Jesus Christ is not a creature of God. We have to say that at one level he is one with God and another level he is fully human. So he is fully human and fully divine.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Here is another verse where you can clearly see the Trinity. If you say Trinity is against God then this verse not from God.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Mequa
Neo-Epicurean
What Trinitarians seem to be getting at is rather like this analogy:
God (the Godhead) is H20.
God the Father is steam.
God the Son is water.
God the Holy Spirit is ice.
Steam is H20, water is H20, ice is H20, yet also, steam, water and ice are still distinct. Steam is not water. Water is not ice. Steam is not ice. Yet all are equally H20.
Likewise, we can have the Father being God, the Son being God, the Holy Spirit being God, yet also, Father, Son and Holy Spirit still being distinct. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Holy Spirit. Yet all are equally God.
The technical terms are: one ousia in three hypostases.
Where this analogy breaks down is that, while the existence of water and its states is empirically validated, the same cannot be said for the God of the Trinitarians, who it appears was invented quite simply to mystify the mind.
God (the Godhead) is H20.
God the Father is steam.
God the Son is water.
God the Holy Spirit is ice.
Steam is H20, water is H20, ice is H20, yet also, steam, water and ice are still distinct. Steam is not water. Water is not ice. Steam is not ice. Yet all are equally H20.
Likewise, we can have the Father being God, the Son being God, the Holy Spirit being God, yet also, Father, Son and Holy Spirit still being distinct. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Holy Spirit. Yet all are equally God.
The technical terms are: one ousia in three hypostases.
Where this analogy breaks down is that, while the existence of water and its states is empirically validated, the same cannot be said for the God of the Trinitarians, who it appears was invented quite simply to mystify the mind.
First born means 'the first manifestation of the divine'. It is like the primordial seed like quarks, who are the source of the material universe, from which everything comes. Only begotten(not created but manifested) also means that the primordial matter is not created by God out of nothing but it is the manifestation of God, like a piece of ice that comes from the water.