So why did God allow Christians to be lead astray for so long?

[Wharton]

By the fourth century apostate Christians were ripe for pickings and Constantine faced no opposition when he became the spiritual head of the Roman Catholic Church. He bore the title of "Pontifex Maximus" which was a pagan Roman title carried by the Pope to this day.
Once the restraining influence of the apostles was gone.....nothing would stop the lawlessness that followed. History testifies to the rest

If you read the bible, you will see that God uses pagans to accomplish his objectives also. Constantine was not the head of the theological discussions. The bishops were. Most were eastern bishops, not Latin bishops. Pontifex Maximus means greatest bridge builder. BTW, it is not one of the pope's official titles

 

[Wharton]

I doubt there is an organization on earth that is immune to pedophiles, but no one comes close to the Catholic Church on this one. Sexual and physical abuse was an institutional norm for hundreds of years in countries all over the world. The priesthood became a safe haven for homosexuals and deviates of every description. No child was safe.

It's not an institutional norm.

BTW, here's info from your organization. And your organization has hidden religious leaders from prosecution who have sexually abused children. Does that make your organization a false religion? Yes, it does, based on what's below.

Kingdom News No. 37

The End of False Religion Is Near!

▪ TOLERATES IMMORAL SEX: In Western lands, church groups ordain gay and lesbian members of the clergy and urge governments to recognize same-sex marriages. Even churches that condemn immorality have tolerated religious leaders who have sexually abused children. What, though, does the Bible teach? It plainly states: “Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men . . . will inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Do you know of religions that condone immoral sex?

 

[Wharton]

Christians were told by Jesus to be "no part of the world" which includes its governments and its conflicts, so your point is moot.
Conversion at the point of a sword or confession under torture is hardly what Jesus taught

So I guess you will proudly refuse to accept government sponsored Social Security and Medicare? Tell us.

 

[Wharton]

The apostles were acting as a restraint to full blown apostasy, but once the last apostle John passed away at the end of the first century, that is when the weeds began to multiply.

Let's see. John died around 100AD yet the Church in Corinth appealed to the pope in Rome, Clement 1, for guidance not to John the Apostle. And I see no writings or hints of John the Apostle opposing the teachings of the pope in Rome or any other bishops.

 

[JayJayDee]

So you can't name them. They're just shadow figures and so the gates of hell prevailed against Christ's Church.

The Bible doesn't "name them" so how can you? Church tradition and the writings of the church "fathers", who appeared along with the apostasy, do not trump scripture unless of course your church gives itself that authority. I will accept only what the Bible teaches and I can assure you that the Catholic Church does not agree with the Bible at all. It gave itself permission to override it.

You still didn't tell me what "the gates of hell" are?

 

[JayJayDee]

Jesus DID say he would form a church. Where was that church located until yours came into existence? It appears that no one held what you believe to be true which necessitated the formation of your organization 1800 years later. Face it. None of the wheat held what you believed until the 1800's. So there is an 1800 year gap when churches were apostate, not preaching the truth. The gates of hell prevailed for 1800 years making Jesus a liar and a sinner.

Do you know what "Babylon the great" is Wharton?

When God abandoned his unfaithful people in ancient times, it was because of spiritual defection from his truth. They fell away to the worship of other gods, so he allowed them to be taken into exile in Babylon. Far away from their homeland, it fell I to disrepair and became a haunt for wild animals.
They were to stay there in Babylon until all the unfaithful ones of that generation died.

Then, when their time was up, God orchestrated a liberation and restoration of a remnant of faithful Jews to their homeland. They rebuilt the temple and re-established true worship with God's blessing on their efforts.

Pictorially, God again allowed his faithless worshippers to be held captive in a greater Babylon. But when the time was right, he commanded his faithful ones to "come out of her". (Rev 18:4, 5)
Those who have obeyed his command will not share in her punishment.

 

[Wharton]

The Bible doesn't "name them" so how can you? Church tradition and the writings of the church "fathers", who appeared along with the apostasy, do not trump scripture unless of course your church gives itself that authority. I will accept only what the Bible teaches and I can assure you that the Catholic Church does not agree with the Bible at all. It gave itself permission to override it.

You still didn't tell me what "the gates of hell" are?

Of course the bible names the churches. Who do you think Paul and John wrote to? A lot of churches. The gates of hell, in your circumstance, would be the apostate bible in use until the JW's found it necessary to rewrite it according to their beliefs. So Christians were totally misinformed as to the truth until the NWT came along. It seems the Holy Spirit was a failure at inspiration for 1800 years. Your bible was written to reflect your beliefs. Plain and simple. Do you know of any other denomination that uses your bible?

Now tell me what ceremony was Jesus performing at the Last Supper and I don't want to hear initiating a new covenant. What ceremony do you attempt to mimic at your Passover memorial service each year?

 

[JayJayDee]

It's not an institutional norm.

BTW, here's info from your organization. And your organization has hidden religious leaders from prosecution who have sexually abused children. Does that make your organization a false religion? Yes, it does, based on what's below.

Kingdom News No. 37

The End of False Religion Is Near!

▪ TOLERATES IMMORAL SEX: In Western lands, church groups ordain gay and lesbian members of the clergy and urge governments to recognize same-sex marriages. Even churches that condemn immorality have tolerated religious leaders who have sexually abused children. What, though, does the Bible teach? It plainly states: “Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men . . . will inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Do you know of religions that condone immoral sex?

How much money has "the church" had to pay the victims of its abusive priests? What could that money have done for the poorer Catholic people in developing nations when their Pope lives in an ornate palace with servants?

The church was exposed as supporting the perpetrators by sending known pedophiles to other unsuspecting parishes to abuse even more victims.
No organization is immune to deviates...they do't exactly wear a sign around their necks declaring their tendencies, but we have a clear policy on child abuse. Elders in our brotherhood are not the police. They have no powers to prosecute anyone. They also need the Biblically required "two or three witnesses" in order to proceed with any disciplinary action. In cases of child abuse, the offenders are always careful not to show themselves for what they really are. The parents must take matters to the police.

But children in Catholic instructions had no such option. It was a systemic problem for centuries. The children had no recourse and suffered mercilessly at the hands of those entrusted with their care. The Catholic Church were by no means the only ones guilty of institutional abuse. What is coming to light now has shocked everyone.

Court proceedings in the past subjected the victims to intense interrogation in court which was as damaging to the victim as the original act. Thankfully things have changed.

I see the priesthood of your church dwindling seriously. In the town where I live the Catholic Church had no priest except one that was trying to share himself around several parishes. Now that the church has tried to publicly tighten up its standards, it appears as if the vocation has become even less attractive to those who may have chosen it for the wrong purpose.

That is not to say that all Catholic priests are bad by any means, but those who are trying to do the most good seem to get little or no support from the church itself. They seem to have to rely on public money...why?

 

[Wharton]

Do you know what "Babylon the great" is Wharton?

When God abandoned his unfaithful people in ancient times, it was because of spiritual defection from his truth. They fell away to the worship of other gods, so he allowed them to be taken into exile in Babylon. Far away from their homeland, it fell I to disrepair and became a haunt for wild animals.
They were to stay there in Babylon until all the unfaithful ones of that generation died.

Then, when their time was up, God orchestrated a liberation and restoration of a remnant of faithful Jews to their homeland. They rebuilt the temple and re-established true worship with God's blessing on their efforts.

Pictorially, God again allowed his faithless worshippers to be held captive in a greater Babylon. But when the time was right, he commanded his faithful ones to "come out of her". (Rev 18:4, 5)
Those who have obeyed his command will not share in her punishment.

So the Jews were in Babylon. Where was your "wheat" located that held your beliefs? Since JW's are gnostic Arians and the Arian heresy and the gnostics were shown to be heretics and have no churches, you're out of luck.

 

[JayJayDee]

So I guess you will proudly refuse to accept government sponsored Social Security and Medicare? Tell us.

The Bible tells us to pay our taxes so that we can benefit from the government programs that our tax money pays for....pensions are one such provision along with roads, hospitals schools etc. Being no part of the world does not preclude us from the provisions that God has allowed from those he permits to rule. (Rom 13:1-7)

 

[Wharton]

How much money has "the church" had to pay the victims of its abusive priests? What could that money have done for the poorer Catholic people in developing nations when their Pope lives in an ornate palace with servants?

The church was exposed as supporting the perpetrators by sending known pedophiles to other unsuspecting parishes to abuse even more victims.
No organization is immune to deviates...they do't exactly wear a sign around their necks declaring their tendencies, but we have a clear policy on child abuse. Elders in our brotherhood are not the police. They have no powers to prosecute anyone. They also need the Biblically required "two or three witnesses" in order to proceed with any disciplinary action. In cases of child abuse, the offenders are always careful not to show themselves for what they really are. The parents must take matters to the police.

But children in Catholic instructions had no such option. It was a systemic problem for centuries. The children had no recourse and suffered mercilessly at the hands of those entrusted with their care. The Catholic Church were by no means the only ones guilty of institutional abuse. What is coming to light now has shocked everyone.

Court proceedings in the past subjected the victims to intense interrogation in court which was as damaging to the victim as the original act. Thankfully things have changed.

I see the priesthood of your church dwindling seriously. In the town where I live the Catholic Church had no priest except one that was trying to share himself around several parishes. Now that the church has tried to publicly tighten up its standards, it appears as if the vocation has become even less attractive to those who may have chosen it for the wrong purpose.

That is not to say that all Catholic priests are bad by any means, but those who are trying to do the most good seem to get little or no support from the church itself. They seem to have to rely on public money...why?

I told you about glass houses. BTW, the pope doesn't live in the papal palace. He lives in a small apartment.

The Watchtower Society is facing another major court case that will be necessary to resolve a $3 Billion (Australian dollars) class action lawsuit. This may be the most serious battle they’ve waged in decades because they are actually facing serious criminal charges in a trial court in the State of Victoria, Australia.
Filed on behalf of over 6,000 children, this class action investigation may unveil over 14,000 alleged serious criminal breaches of Australian state and federal mandatory child protection laws over the past four years. Charged with either ignoring or violating the law are elders and ministerial servants associated with Kingdom Halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The Victoria State Government’s “Inquiry into the Handling of Child Abuse by Religions and other Organisations” is expected to hold a public hearing about this in early 2013.

A victim advocacy group for survivors of the Church of Jehovah’s Witnesses within Australia, JW Survivors, is providing the evidence and testimonies needed to successfully launch this lawsuit. This evidence relates to criminal breaches of the Victoria State’s “Working with Children Act 2005.” Specific violations of that act were allegedly committed by members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses between July 1, 2008 and December 12, 2011. This was after full compliance with the “Working With Children” laws became mandatory for all “religious organisations” on July 1, 2008.

And BTW, the JW organization changed in 2012 and now claims that they hold no assets so there's no money to pay out for law suits. Nice.

 

[Wharton]

The Bible tells us to pay our taxes so that we can benefit from the government programs that our tax money pays for....pensions are one such provision along with roads, hospitals schools etc. Being no part of the world does not preclude us from the provisions that God has allowed from those he permits to rule. (Rom 13:1-7)

So you are not part of the world until it comes to $$$ benefits?

 

[JayJayDee]

So the Jews were in Babylon. Where was your "wheat" located that held your beliefs? Since JW's are gnostic Arians and the Arian heresy and the gnostics were shown to be heretics and have no churches, you're out of luck.

LOL... you think? JW's are not Arians. Nor are we Gnostics.
We are Christian disciples of Jesus Christ as worshippers of his God and Father. We don't worship Jesus but join him in offering our worship to his Father....the one Jesus called "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)

Did you miss the point about original Babylon? God's people were left there until it was time to restore them to their homeland and to his pure worship.

In the "time of the end" another restoration was foretold. Release from Babylon the great (false worship sown by the devil) was facilitated when a new spiritual estate was created so that God's "people" would have somewhere to go. He would hardly tell his people to get out of one institution without a place of safety to flee to.

 

[JayJayDee]

I told you about glass houses. BTW, the pope doesn't live in the papal palace. He lives in a small apartment.

He lives in a separate "country" in an ornate palace with servants. Am I wrong?
He is immune to prosecution from outside his very convenient estate.

A victim advocacy group for survivors of the Church of Jehovah’s Witnesses within Australia, JW Survivors, is providing the evidence and testimonies needed to successfully launch this lawsuit. This evidence relates to criminal breaches of the Victoria State’s “Working with Children Act 2005.” Specific violations of that act were allegedly committed by members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses between July 1, 2008 and December 12, 2011. This was after full compliance with the “Working With Children” laws became mandatory for all “religious organisations” on July 1, 2008.

If there are breaches of the law then guilty ones will pay. I have no problem with that. It has yet to be proven in court. They are at present "allegations". As I said...we are not immune to the problem but we pale by comparison to the "proven" abuses perpetrated by your own church clergy.

And BTW, the JW organization changed in 2012 and now claims that they hold no assets so there's no money to pay out for law suits. Nice.

If you say so. I can see how you are always right.

Incidentally when the French government tried to tax our organization they were forced to pay back every cent because we hold the same status as any other "religious" organization that is tax exempt. We are legally a charitable organization with funds used to benefit our members. We do not solicit donations from the public.

We will defend ourselves in court when there is a miscarriage of justice and we will see what the courts decide in this case, won't we?

Are you pitting your own church's evildoing against ours... As if it somehow excuses or eliminates the scale of it? Really?

 

[JayJayDee]

So you are not part of the world until it comes to $$$ benefits?

"Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad. 5 There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. 6 That is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. 7 Render to all their dues: to the one who calls for the tax, the tax; to the one who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to the one who calls for fear, such fear; to the one who calls for honor, such honor. "

 

[Wharton]

"Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad. 5 There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. 6 That is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. 7 Render to all their dues: to the one who calls for the tax, the tax; to the one who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to the one who calls for fear, such fear; to the one who calls for honor, such honor. "

Correct. But since you label all earthly governments as Satan, why take Satan's hand-outs?

 

[Wharton]

He lives in a separate "country" in an ornate palace with servants. Am I wrong?
He is immune to prosecution from outside his very convenient estate.

Now that's funny. Vatican City has 110 acres. Your new world headquarters in Warwick NY has 257 acres. And I bet it's air conditioned as the Vatican is not. Must be nice for your clergy.

 

[Wharton]

He lives in a separate "country" in an ornate palace with servants. Am I wrong?
He is immune to prosecution from outside his very convenient estate.



If there are breaches of the law then guilty ones will pay. I have no problem with that. It has yet to be proven in court. They are at present "allegations". As I said...we are not immune to the problem but we pale by comparison to the "proven" abuses perpetrated by your own church clergy.



If you say so. I can see how you are always right.

Incidentally when the French government tried to tax our organization they were forced to pay back every cent because we hold the same status as any other "religious" organization that is tax exempt. We are legally a charitable organization with funds used to benefit our members. We do not solicit donations from the public.

We will defend ourselves in court when there is a miscarriage of justice and we will see what the courts decide in this case, won't we?

Are you pitting your own church's evildoing against ours... As if it somehow excuses or eliminates the scale of it? Really?

There is no central governing body in the Catholic Church that exercises total control like your governing body.

 

[JayJayDee]

Correct. But since you label all earthly governments as Satan, why take Satan's hand-outs?

Those ruling by God's permission are not satan but are influenced by the god of this world...look around you and tell me what government on earth is not corrupt at its core and controlled by others who possess power greater than their own? (2 Cor 4:3, 4) The devil is the power behind the power. He orchestrates everything through his ruling powers...like a puppeteer.

These ones rule by God's permission so that the God-assigned work of his servants can be carried out. Why do you think the Jews were told to pay taxes to the Roman government? Why do you think tax collectors like Matthew were so despised? The Jewish zealots were trying to orchestrate a revolt against Rome but Jesus never backed them. The Christians were never told to oppose the government, but to obey them. (Rom 13:1-7)

 

[JayJayDee]

Now that's funny. Vatican City has 110 acres. Your new world headquarters in Warwick NY has 257 acres. And I bet it's air conditioned as the Vatican is not. Must be nice for your clergy.

We have no clergy. We have shepherds who guide and direct the flock.

And the last time I looked, air conditioning was not against any Bible principle. Perhaps the Vatican thinks that sweating in the heat of summer is a form of penance? Austerity? Self-denial? What?
What do they do in the winter? Freeze?

Warwick is not classified as a country. It doesn't have a bank or a police force or a mint or even a post office......last time I checked.

There is no central governing body in the Catholic Church that exercises total control like your governing body.

Ha ha ha....no you have an infallible Pope. Anyone who goes against his teaching is going to hell. Right? No control there......just fear.

When did Jesus ever use fear to control people and force them to do certain things against their conscience? Where was the collective conscience of the ones who carried out the torture of the inquisition?
How do clergy sanction war in the face of Jesus' command to love our enemies? No one ever seems to address that.

What is this "control" that the governing body is supposed to exert on us poor ignorant members of the flock? In over 40 years as a Witness of Jehovah, I have never been asked to do anything against my will. I have never been forced into a situation where my conscience was bothered about anything.

I know what I believe and I know where to find it in the Bible. Do you?

We don't have "church" with mindless repetition and ritual. We have no men in funny hats dressed in pagan garb or back to front collars who parade idols through the streets. We are Bible students who obey Jesus command to "preach the good news about God's kingdom in all the inhabited earth". (Matt 24:14) Is the Catholic Church known for its preaching? Are Catholic people known for their adherence to the Bible?
Are they followers of Christ or followers of a man?