Jesus vs Paul (salvation doctrine)

[Simplelogic]

Jesus

The one who repents from sin is “justified.” (Parable of the Publi- can and the Pharisee. Luke 18:10- 14.) Th son who was dead but now repents is “alive again” (born again). (Parable of the Prodigal Son, Luke 15:1-32, viz. v. 24.)

Paul

One is not justified nor born again by repentance from sin, but by faith alone. (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:4.) Any such addition to Paul’s salvation by faith alone doctrine is the heresy of “works salvation.” (Wilkin, Stanley, Hodge.)

Jesus

The one who relies upon God’s election to salvation and does not repent goes home unjustified. (Parable of the Publican and the Pharisee. Luke 18:10-14.)

Paul

The one who relies upon God’s election alone for salvation is relying on the right thing. (Rom. 8:33.) God elects you to salvation by means of predestination, and hence without any work on your part. Faith is given to you as part of God’s work in you. (Phil 1:6) (Wilkin, Stanley.)

Jesus
To have eternal life, follow the Ten Commandments, deny your- self (i.e., repent and do works worthy of repentance) and then follow Jesus. If you give up fathers, mothers, and brothers for Jesus, deny yourself, take up your cross, and “follow Me,” you “shall have eternal life.” (Mat- thew 19:27-29; Matthew 10:37- 39; John 12:25-26.)

Paul
To have eternal life, say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe He is resurrected. (Rom. 10:9.) Do not add any work. “Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.”(Rom. 4:4.) If salvation depends on keeping the Law, then salvation by faith is made void. “f they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void...” (Rom.4:14.)

Jesus
A Christian will go to hell if they deny Christ under pressure. (Luke 12:4-9.)

Paul
If we deny Jesus, He will deny us, but in the end God will still accept us because He cannot deny Himself. (Stanley.) Paul says: “if we shall deny him, he also will deny us: if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for He cannot deny himself.” (2 Tim. 2:12-13.)

Jesus

As part of an answer on how to have eternal life, Jesus tells a rich man to repent by giving his wealth to the poor. The man is grieved. (Matthew 19:16-26; Mark 10:17-31; Luke 18:18-26.) Jesus tells another rich man who repents and repays those he stole from that “Today salvation has come to this house....” (Luke 19:9.)

Paul

Salvation could not possibly depend on any works of repentance. Salvation is by faith alone. (Eph.2:8-9; Rom. 4:4.)

Jesus

The thief on the cross, in front of a crowd hostile to Jesus, says: “Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom.”(Luke 23:42.) Jesus had said that if you “confess me before men” then he will confess you before the angels in Heaven. (Luke 12:8.) Jesus thus tells the thief “this day you will be with me in Paradise.”

Paul

Salvation could never depend on a confession of Jesus before men. If it was a means of salvation, this would be works righteousness. Instead, even though Paul said that if you “say Jesus is Lord with your mouth” and believe He was resurrected, then you shall be saved (Rom. 10:9), faith is all you need to be saved. (Rom. 4:4.) Paul must mean that such confes- sion will flow naturally from faith rather than salvation is produced by a public confession. (Wilkin.)

Jesus

Salvation is based on God forgiving your sin. If you do not forgive others after you receive forgiveness, God will revoke your forgiveness and send you to hell to be tormented. (Matt. 18:28-35; cf. Matt. 6:12.)

Paul

Salvation is not contingent on your forgiving others. Salvation only has one condition: a one- time faith. (Romans 4:4.) If you ever once had faith (Romans 10:9), you are no longer able to be condemned. (Romans 8:1.)

Jesus

Jesus promised those who “kept guard” of His word “should never taste death.” (John 8:51.) “He who continues to trust/believe should be saved.” (John 3:16.) He who continues to “disobey” the Son continues to be under God’s wrath. (John 3:36.)

Paul

There is no endurance in any action required. Only a one-time faith is necessary for salvation. (Romans 4:4.) One could fail to keep and guard Jesus’ word and still be saved because one is eternally secure based on a one-time faith. (Romans 8:1, 10:9.)

Jesus

Jesus said “a branch in me” that produces no fruit because it failed to keep staying “in me” will be thrown “outside” the vineyard. It is as a branch that died (dried up). It is gathered up into the fire and is burned. (John 15:1-6.)

Paul

If fruit or works were necessary to avoid being thrown outside God’s vineyard, becoming dead and then being burned in hell, it would be a salvation by works. Instead, salvation is by faith without any works. (Romans 4:4, 14; Eph. 2:8-9.)

Jesus

A servant of Jesus who produces no fruit is useless, and he will be “thrown...into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matt. 25:14 et seq.) This place of weeping and gnashing is the “fiery furnace.” (Matt. 13:42, 50.)

Paul

If fruit or works were necessary to avoid being thrown outside and be burned in hell where there is weeping and gnashing, it would be a salvation by works. Instead, salvation is by faith without any works. (Romans 4:4, 14;
Eph. 2:8-9.)

Jesus

If you receive the word with joy and “believe for a while,” but in time of temptation, you fall away, you are lost. If you are choked by the pleasures of this world, and bring no fruit to completion, you are lost. If on the other hand, you bring forth fruit to the end, in patient endurance, you will be saved. (Luke 8:13-15.) You “shall be saved” if you “endured to the end.” (Matt. 10:22.)

Paul

If you receive the word with joy and believe for a while, you are eternally saved. (Romans 8:1; 10:9.) Salvation cannot depend on you or anything you do thereafter. Otherwise, it is salvation by works. (Romans 4:4, 14; Eph. 2:8-9.) Thus, if you fall away or are choked with the pleasures of this life and have no fruit, you are still saved. There is no need to endure in faith as long as you believed once.

Jesus

Among the sheep and goats who both call Jesus Lord, the group who serves Jesus by feeding the brethren in need, clothing them, and giving them water, goes to heaven. The other group who calls Jesus Lord but who fails to provide such charity are, as a consequence, sent to “eternal fire.” (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. Matt. 25:32 et seq.). A faith that ignores the poor breth- ren is “dead” and “cannot save.” (James 2:14-17.) “Every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matt. 7:19.)

Paul

Anyone who “shall call” on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13.) This is perma- nent, and no condition subsequent can be put on this that you must be charitable or have fruit thereaf- ter. Otherwise, it is salvation by works. (Romans 4:4, 14; Eph. 2:8-9.) Hence, it cannot be true that if the goats, in fact, ever once called on the name of the Lord that they should be sent to hell. James’ statement that paraphrases the principle of Matthew 25:32 et seq. contradicts Paul, and we are not to believe even an angel from heaven if he should contradict Paul. (Gal. 1:8.)

Jesus

“I keep telling you the one who keeps on listening to my teaching and keeps on believing in the one who sent me keeps on having eternal life and does not come into condemnation but has departed out of death into life.” (John 5:24.) For the basis to this translation, see pages 167-70.

Paul

Once in Christ, there is now no condemnation. This entry is by a one-time faith. (Rom. 10:9). As a result, freedom from condemna- tion is not secured by any conti- nuity in listening to Jesus’ teaching or believing in God-the- Father.

 

[Kolibri]

Running thru this extensive list I picked up 4 basic conflicts in understanding what Paul was actually teaching

dead faith vs living faith - what actually saves?
predestination - is foreknowledge used to determine individual salvation?
believe vs exercise faith - is the sense of how the Greek verb pisteuo translated confusing the message taught? Is once saved - always saved a valid understanding of what being taught?
works - is salvation possible without faith but by deeds alone? Can following the Law earn one salvation?

Am I missing one?
----------------------

As the issues are with Paul's writings vs Jesus. Here are the ones from Romans cited in the OP with added context. Highlighting the ones cited in the OP.

--------------------------------------------------
This whole section is how righteousness comes from faith. To the one has hinged their salvation on what is earned: Being declared righteous is not something we can deserve. To insist otherwise is to say we don't need God.
"Where, then, is the boasting? There is no place for it. Through what law? That of works? No indeed, but through the law of faith. For we consider that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law. Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith. Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Not at all! On the contrary, we uphold law."

"That being so, what will we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For instance, if Abraham was declared righteous as a result of works, he would have reason to boast but not with God. For what does the scripture say? "Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness." (Ge 15:6) Now to the man who works, his pay is not counted as an undeserved kindness but as something owed to him. (or "as a debt.") On the other hand, to the man who does not work but puts faith in the One who declares the ungodly one righteous, his faith is counted as righteousness. Just as David also speaks of the happiness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: "Happy are those whose lawless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered; (or "forgiven') happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account." (Ps 32:1,2)

"Does this happiness, then, only come to circumcised people or also to uncircumcised people? For we say: "Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness." Under what circumstances, then, was it counted as righteousness? When he was circumcised or uncircumcised? He was not yet circumcised but was uncircumcised. And he received a sign (Ge 17:1,2,11) - namely circumcision - as a seal (or "guarantee; confirmation.") of righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, so that he might be the father of all those having faith while uncircumcised, in order for righteousness to be counted to them; and so that he might be a father to circumcised offspring, not only to those who adhere to circumcision but also to those who walk orderly in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had while in the uncircumcised state."

"For it was not through law that Abraham or his offspring (Lit., "seed") had the promise that he should be heir of a world, (Ge 12:1-3; 17:5,6; 22:17,18) but it was through righteousness by faith."

"For if those who adhere to law are heirs, faith becomes useless and the promise has been abolished. In reality the Law produces wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there any transgression."

"That is why it is through faith, so that it might be according to undeserved kindness, in order for the promise to be sure to all his offspring, not only to those who adhere to the Law but also to those who adhere to the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all" - Romans 3:27-4:16
----------------------------------------------------
We all struggle with sin, but by keeping our minds focused on delighting in law of God in union with the Christ, we do not need to feel condemned. Do not get overwhelmed with sadness. Set our minds on delighting in the law of God while trusting in the ransom to cover our unavoidable sins. Aux.- it was our imperfect flesh made the Law weak in the sense that our slavery to sin prevents anyone from keeping it perfectly. Christ satisfied the sacrificial requirement of the Law, so people can be declared righteous - though we still need to struggle against sin.
"I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. (Jer 17:9) I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I see in my body (Lit., "members.") another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin's law that is in my body."

"Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God's law, but with my flesh to sin's law."

"Therefore, those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation. For the law of the spirit that gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free (Joh 8:31,32; Jas 1:25) from the law of sin and death. What the Law was incapable of doing because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk, not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. for those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit, on the things of the spirit. For setting the mind on the flesh means death, but setting the mind on the spirit means life and peace; because setting the mind on the flesh means enmity with God, (Isa 59:2) for it is not in subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. so those who are in cannot please God." - Rom 7:21-8:8
---------------------------------------------------
Here is a case were how pisteuo is translated can really change the meaning. Attaining God's righteousness is not a once saved - always saved scenario. We exercise or live our faith by, relying on the ransom, relying on Jehovah, and, as we are able, helping others to do the same.
"Brothers, the goodwill of my heart and my supplication to God for them are indeed for their salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, (Lu 16:15) they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. (Lu 7:29,30) For Christ is the end of the Law, (Mt 5:17) so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness."

"For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the Law: "The man who does these things will live by means of them." (Le 18:5) But the righteousness resulting from faith says: "Do not say in your heart, (De 9:4) 'Who will ascend into the heaven?' (De 30:12) that is, to bring Christ down, or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (De 30:13) that is, to bring Christ up from the dead." But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your own mouth and in your own heart"; (De 30:14) that is, "the word" of faith, which we are preaching. For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation."

"For the scripture says: "No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed." (Isa 28:16) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. (Acts 15:7-9) There is the same Lord over all, who is rich (or "generous.") toward all those calling on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Joe 2:32) However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whole they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? (Mt 28:19,20) Just as it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!" (Isa 52:7) - Romans 10:1-15

 

[Simplelogic]

Running thru this extensive list I picked up 4 basic conflicts in understanding what Paul was actually teaching

dead faith vs living faith - what actually saves?
predestination - is foreknowledge used to determine individual salvation?
believe vs exercise faith - is the sense of how the Greek verb pisteuo translated confusing the message taught? Is once saved - always saved a valid understanding of what being taught?
works - is salvation possible without faith but by deeds alone? Can following the Law earn one salvation?

Am I missing one?
----------------------

As the issues are with Paul's writings vs Jesus. Here are the ones from Romans cited in the OP with added context. Highlighting the ones cited in the OP.

--------------------------------------------------
This whole section is how righteousness comes from faith. To the one has hinged their salvation on what is earned: Being declared righteous is not something we can deserve. To insist otherwise is to say we don't need God.
"Where, then, is the boasting? There is no place for it. Through what law? That of works? No indeed, but through the law of faith. For we consider that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law. Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith. Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Not at all! On the contrary, we uphold law."

"That being so, what will we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For instance, if Abraham was declared righteous as a result of works, he would have reason to boast but not with God. For what does the scripture say? "Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness." (Ge 15:6) Now to the man who works, his pay is not counted as an undeserved kindness but as something owed to him. (or "as a debt.") On the other hand, to the man who does not work but puts faith in the One who declares the ungodly one righteous, his faith is counted as righteousness. Just as David also speaks of the happiness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: "Happy are those whose lawless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered; (or "forgiven') happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account." (Ps 32:1,2)

"Does this happiness, then, only come to circumcised people or also to uncircumcised people? For we say: "Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness." Under what circumstances, then, was it counted as righteousness? When he was circumcised or uncircumcised? He was not yet circumcised but was uncircumcised. And he received a sign (Ge 17:1,2,11) - namely circumcision - as a seal (or "guarantee; confirmation.") of righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, so that he might be the father of all those having faith while uncircumcised, in order for righteousness to be counted to them; and so that he might be a father to circumcised offspring, not only to those who adhere to circumcision but also to those who walk orderly in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had while in the uncircumcised state."

"For it was not through law that Abraham or his offspring (Lit., "seed") had the promise that he should be heir of a world, (Ge 12:1-3; 17:5,6; 22:17,18) but it was through righteousness by faith."

"For if those who adhere to law are heirs, faith becomes useless and the promise has been abolished. In reality the Law produces wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there any transgression."

"That is why it is through faith, so that it might be according to undeserved kindness, in order for the promise to be sure to all his offspring, not only to those who adhere to the Law but also to those who adhere to the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all" - Romans 3:27-4:16
----------------------------------------------------
We all struggle with sin, but by keeping our minds focused on delighting in law of God in union with the Christ, we do not need to feel condemned. Do not get overwhelmed with sadness. Set our minds on delighting in the law of God while trusting in the ransom to cover our unavoidable sins. Aux.- it was our imperfect flesh made the Law weak in the sense that our slavery to sin prevents anyone from keeping it perfectly. Christ satisfied the sacrificial requirement of the Law, so people can be declared righteous - though we still need to struggle against sin.
"I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. (Jer 17:9) I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I see in my body (Lit., "members.") another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin's law that is in my body."

"Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God's law, but with my flesh to sin's law."

"Therefore, those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation. For the law of the spirit that gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free (Joh 8:31,32; Jas 1:25) from the law of sin and death. What the Law was incapable of doing because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk, not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. for those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit, on the things of the spirit. For setting the mind on the flesh means death, but setting the mind on the spirit means life and peace; because setting the mind on the flesh means enmity with God, (Isa 59:2) for it is not in subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. so those who are in cannot please God." - Rom 7:21-8:8
---------------------------------------------------
Here is a case were how pisteuo is translated can really change the meaning. Attaining God's righteousness is not a once saved - always saved scenario. We exercise or live our faith by, relying on the ransom, relying on Jehovah, and, as we are able, helping others to do the same.
"Brothers, the goodwill of my heart and my supplication to God for them are indeed for their salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, (Lu 16:15) they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. (Lu 7:29,30) For Christ is the end of the Law, (Mt 5:17) so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness."

"For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the Law: "The man who does these things will live by means of them." (Le 18:5) But the righteousness resulting from faith says: "Do not say in your heart, (De 9:4) 'Who will ascend into the heaven?' (De 30:12) that is, to bring Christ down, or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (De 30:13) that is, to bring Christ up from the dead." But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your own mouth and in your own heart"; (De 30:14) that is, "the word" of faith, which we are preaching. For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation."

"For the scripture says: "No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed." (Isa 28:16) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. (Acts 15:7-9) There is the same Lord over all, who is rich (or "generous.") toward all those calling on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Joe 2:32) However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whole they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? (Mt 28:19,20) Just as it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!" (Isa 52:7) - Romans 10:1-15

There is no such thing as a sin nature in the Hebrew scriptures.

There is no difference between works and faith in the scriptures either. Only in Paul's letters are these concepts presented as mutually exclusive terms. To the contrary, works and faith go together like peanut butter and jelly!

 

[Simplelogic]

"Grace and mercy versus Law and works?

In the book of Romans, Paul goes on to try and drive home his picture of grace versus works with more nonsensical, as well as non-Scriptural, logic. The remainder of Romans is sprinkled throughout with this picture... based on the assumption that he has established it as truth in his previous arguments, namely, that no one can become righteous under the Law, because God made the Law impossible to keep for the very purpose of keeping man humble and reliant on His good graces. We have also seen his twist of Scripture taken from the story of Abraham. Another one of his statements that ultimately makes God responsible for man's sin is this gem.

"Moreover the Law entered that (for this purpose) the offense (sin) might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:20

Again he draws the mutually exclusive picture of Law versus grace in the following.

"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law but under grace." Romans 6:14

Later on in Romans, Paul uses an analogy from the time of Elijah to make his grace-versus-works point.

But what does the divine response say to him (Elijah)? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant (of Israel) according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Romans 11:4-6

Paul's logic is so stood on its head, and his proof demonstrated with smoke and mirrors here that it's almost humorous. It would be if so many didn't actually believe this is the infallible word of God! The only thing that Paul derives from what God said to Elijah is that He had reserved a "remnant" for Himself. Nothing more! Never mind the fact that these seven thousand men had themselves remained true to God's Law and not bowed their knee to Baal! Sounds like works to me! But then, to keep the illusion going, Paul states that this new remnant of saved Israel is "according to the election of grace". This he bases on the assumption that he firmly established the concept of predestination and the election by grace earlier in the infamous passages of Romans 9. This detestable doctrine is itself based on numerous misquotes of Scripture as I have shown. But now Paul continues to build lie on top of lie with the flow of logic that if salvation is by grace, then it is no longer by works; otherwise grace is no longer grace! What utter nonsense! Where is it written that grace and Law (works) are mutually exclusive concepts... other than in Paul's writings? Paul had previously tried to establish this principle that the two concepts cannot go together with this slight-of-hand.

"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." Romans 4:4

This slight-of-hand is accomplished by renaming elements in the equation much the way an abortionist would never call an unborn child "a baby". If Paul can get away with callingobedience to God "work", then he can get away with calling the benefits of that work "wages", and if we continue to follow him down this road we find out that wages are really a "debt"! Oh no! Who would want to be accused of being so presumptuous as to bill God for grace?!! Phew! Let's back up and start over. What Paul calls "work" is reallyobedience to God. God is the One with the bill! He made us and demands the payment of obedience. His grace and mercy are benefits (not wages) of doing business with Him. No one, no matter how obedient, can presumptuously demand payment of anything from God. To do so would involve disobedience to the Law concerning walking humbly with God! Anyone who is obedient and walks humbly with God can have all the faith in the world that God will provide the benefits He promised. This is where true faith exists! Now doesn't this sound so much more simple and right?Even a child can grasp this picture. But one has to spend many years in seminary before they can even pretend to comprehend Paul's convoluted mess. "

The Law stands

 

[outhouse]

Your making a false assumption Jesus said those things, when we have no idea what he may have stated.

Those are unknown authors writings who compiled multiple traditions, oral and written, who were far removed from Jesus life and geographic location.

 

[Yes]

Jesus

The one who repents from sin is “justified.” (Parable of the Publi- can and the Pharisee. Luke 18:10- 14.) Th son who was dead but now repents is “alive again” (born again). (Parable of the Prodigal Son, Luke 15:1-32, viz. v. 24.)

Paul

One is not justified nor born again by repentance from sin, but by faith alone. (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:4.) Any such addition to Paul’s salvation by faith alone doctrine is the heresy of “works salvation.” (Wilkin, Stanley, Hodge.)

You misunderstand what Paul says, as do many other teachers.

Jesus taught that we have to repent before being saved, and the Apostle Paul does too!

Read these scriptures as said by PAUL:

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Acts 17:30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,

Acts 8:22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart.

Did you read them?

Paul preached for us to REPENT then be saved.

Paul was speaking about ALL THE MANY CEREMONIAL WORKS as being the works we no longer have to do!

Paul was NOT preaching that all we have to do is believe AND NOT OBEY! That is ludicrous. Paul would not ever teach such a thing.

Men misunderstand what Paul says about no works. Paul is speaking about no works such as circumcision, and other works of the Old Testament Law, like the dietary laws, the various external washings, the observance of special days; those are the CEREMONIAL WORKS OF THE LAW. The Jews had to do those things JUST TO WORSHIP GOD. No one has to do those things anymore, because through faith in Jesus’ blood makes us clean. The Jews had to work at making THEMSELVES clean to have a relationship with God, but God nailed those works to the cross. We do not have to do those things to be made clean before God; Jesus makes us clean before God. God did not nail repenting, confessing, and stop sinning to the cross. We have to believe and obey God. We have to repent, confess, and stop sinning.

 

[Simplelogic]

Paul was NOT preaching that all we have to do is believe AND NOT OBEY! That is ludicrous. Paul would not ever teach such a thing.

[/QUOTE]

Paul
Gal 2:16; Romans 3:28: Justification is by faith not works of the Law.

James
James 2:24: Justification is by works not faith alone

Paul
Gal 3:6; Romans 4:3: Quotes Genesis 15:6, Faith made Abraham right with God.

James
James 2:22-23: Quotes Genesis 15:6, his faith and deeds worked together

 

[Simplelogic]

Men misunderstand what Paul says about no works. Paul is speaking about no works such as circumcision, and other works of the Old Testament Law, like the dietary laws, the various external washings, the observance of special days; those are the CEREMONIAL WORKS OF THE LAW. The Jews had to do those things JUST TO WORSHIP GOD. No one has to do those things anymore, because through faith in Jesus’ blood makes us clean. The Jews had to work at making THEMSELVES clean to have a relationship with God, but God nailed those works to the cross. We do not have to do those things to be made clean before God; Jesus makes us clean before God. God did not nail repenting, confessing, and stop sinning to the cross. We have to believe and obey God. We have to repent, confess, and stop sinning.

Except Yeshua didn't say this at all. He said the person who teaches against the "least of the Torah" will be called least in the kingdom. Circumcision, Dietary laws are all still valid. Even all the Temple laws will be valid again soon when Yeshua returns. You have been sold a lie by a false apostle who has come looking like a sheep. Yeshua warned up this man numerous times.

 

[Yes]

Paul
Gal 2:16; Romans 3:28: Justification is by faith not works of the Law.

James
James 2:24: Justification is by works not faith alone

Paul
Gal 3:6; Romans 4:3: Quotes Genesis 15:6, Faith made Abraham right with God.

James
James 2:22-23: Quotes Genesis 15:6, his faith and deeds worked together

I just explained it to you!

Please, listen carefully.

The WORKS Paul was speaking about that we do not have to do---those works are the CEREMONIAL WORKS the Jews used to have to do just to worship God.

We do not have to do the ceremonial works anymore.

That is what Paul is saying.

For hundreds of years the Jews and Gentiles were SEPARATED because of the CEREMONIAL WORKS.

The Jews were not DEAD in their sins as the Gentiles were.

The Jews were not UNCLEAN people as the Gentiles were, BECAUSE THE JEWS HAD THE WORKS OF THE LAW, the JEWS HAD THE CEREMONIAL WORKS to make them clean, to make them justified before God.

Paul is explaining that no one has to do THOSE works anymore.

 

[Simplelogic]

I just explained it to you!

Please, listen carefully.

The WORKS Paul was speaking about that we do not have to do---those works are the CEREMONIAL WORKS the Jews used to have to do just to worship God.

We do not have to do the ceremonial works anymore.

That is what Paul is saying.

For hundreds of years the Jews and Gentiles were SEPARATED because of the CEREMONIAL WORKS.

The Jews were not DEAD in their sins as the Gentiles were.

The Jews were not UNCLEAN people as the Gentiles were, BECAUSE THE JEWS HAD THE WORKS OF THE LAW, the JEWS HAD THE CEREMONIAL WORKS to make them clean, to make them justified before God.

Paul is explaining that no one has to do THOSE works anymore.

There is no such thing in the Torah as the "ceremonial laws"…just the Torah. It is an all encompassing law structure which YHVH says is perfect.

 

[Simplelogic]

Jesus exposes Paul as a false apostle | ReligiousForums.com

 

[Yes]

Except Yeshua didn't say this at all. He said the person who teaches against the "least of the Torah" will be called least in the kingdom. Circumcision, Dietary laws are all still valid. Even all the Temple laws will be valid again soon when Yeshua returns. You have been sold a lie by a false apostle who has come looking like a sheep. Yeshua warned up this man numerous times.

GOD NAILED ALL THE CEREMONIAL WORKS OF THE LAW TO THE CROSS.

Colossians 2:14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Ephesians 2:15
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

ALL THOSE CEREMONIAL WORKS were a TEACHING TOOL, they were a teaching tool about JESUS.
They were a SHADOW of Jesus Christ.

Jesus FULFILLED those ceremonial works.

Jesus fulfilled the prophets’ means all the prophets prophesied about Jesus, and everything they said about him, he fulfilled.

Jesus fulfilled the law means, all sins were paid for.

The Law said to circumcise the flesh for a sign of faith. Jesus fulfilled that Law to us we do not have to circumcise ourselves in the flesh, because the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts, the Holy Spirit is the sign of our faith.

The Law commanded various external washings, to make ourselves clean. Jesus fulfilled that Law for us---his blood makes us clean, once and for all.

The Law commanded that we observe special days. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because ALL those special days are about Jesus, when we observe Jesus, we observe those special days---Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Jesus is our Passover, etc.

The Law said blood must be shed for the forgiveness of sins, we were told to give animal sacrifices. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because he is the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

See, Jesus fulfilled the law. Since we have salvation through Jesus, it is a greater salvation. Is it greater to observe the Son of God instead of special days? Is it better to be cleaned by the blood of God than by animals? Is it better to be circumcised in the heart by the Holy Spirit, than with a physical circumcision done by the hands of men? The Jews had to do certain ceremonial things, just to go to the temple to worship God. Through Jesus, we are made clean, and we become the temple of the Living God. Circumcision, special days, various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals...these were all teachings tools, a shadow of what was coming, Jesus Christ.

 

[`mud]

Tantalizingly inviting to hang around here.....
So many interesting choices of about all the beliefs and their differences.
Fantastic investigation and conclusion being done here.
Who needs a church, or a pulpit, or a bible,
We have all you guys, very entertaining,
~
'mud

 

[Yes]

Jesus exposes Paul as a false apostle | ReligiousForums.com

I am not going to that link.

You are having the truth explained to you here and now.

Stop blaspheming the Apostle Paul.

Paul does not preach what you, and many other ignorant preach.

 

[Simplelogic]

Yeshua never got rid of any dietary laws.

Peter
Did Yeshua pronounce all foods clean

 

[Simplelogic]

Tantalizingly inviting to hang around here.....
So many interesting choices of about all the beliefs and their differences.
Fantastic investigation and conclusion being done here.
Who needs a church, or a pulpit, or a bible,
We have all you guys, very entertaining,
~
'mud

Happy to entertain!! Be sure to tip your waitress!!

 

[Simplelogic]

I am not going to that link.

You are having the truth explained to you hear and now.

Stop blaspheming the Apostle Paul.

Paul does not preach what you, and many other ignorant preach.

I have studied every word of Paul in detail. If you don't want to debate this then go somewhere else.

 

[Simplelogic]

Stop blaspheming the Apostle Paul.

How could denying Paul be consider blasphemous? Is Paul God? Is he one of the twelve apostles even??

 

[outhouse]

Read these scriptures as said by PAUL:

Those are not Pauls words.

Those are the words of an unknown author, the same one who wrote Luke, who looks to have never met or even knew Paul.

 

[outhouse]

I have studied every word of Paul in detail.

I don't see it. Have you ever sat and listened to a professor on Paul?