Do christians go straight to heaven upon their deaths?

[Katzpur]

Get where? __________
Scripture speaks of two [ 2 ] resurrections:
One, first or earlier resurrection to heaven for some - Rev. 20 v 6
Then a future or later resurrection for the majority of mankind [ John 3 v 13 ] to enjoy a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth starting with Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over earth.

You are aware, of course, that most Christians don't believe in this "healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth starting with Jesus' 1000-year reign." So yes, there are two resurrections, but I don't believe the second one is even remotely the same as you think it is.

 

[rrosskopf]

Angels are spirits

Some are, some aren't. The angels that accompanied Abraham to Sodom and Gomorrah weren't flying, they were walking. The angel that physically wrestled with Jacob obviously had a body.

 

[rrosskopf]

Adam did Not live apart from his body. All of Adam ' returned ' to the dust

There is no need to take an interpretation that is out of sync with many other scriptures in the Bible.

 

[jeager106]

Well, I'll mention a heaven story that came from a person that didn't know doodley-squat about Christianity, probably never set foot in a church save for a wedding.
That'd be my ex-wife. This is not a bash an ex story at all. She is the mother of my son and deserves the very best. ( I have a fine son )
The ex got pregnant to someone else ( after the divorce ) and had a fine little boy.
She let me old that baby boy when he was maybe a month old and I spiritually bonded with the little guy.
Sadly the father managed to die of a drug overdose before the little fellow was a year old. When I pick up my son for very regular visits I longed for his little brother, wanted so very much to be his father, still do.
When the little guy was old enough to realize his older brother ( my son ) had a father the little fellow asked his mother where his daddy was.
Natch she told him that god needed another angel in heaven and took his daddy.
WOW! You have GOT to be kidding me!!!!!!
How in the world could anyone so thoughtlessley BLAME god for killing the boys dad??????????
You know that little boy, now 8, will eventually be very confused, perhaps even harbor hatred for god.
Lots of people try to comfort others with similar lies and damage other suffering people more than could ever be known.
Do I seem angry? I am. I am indeed. I'd take that 8 year old in a heartbeat and raise him as my own without reservation. He is after all my son's brother.
I hate it that people use god as an excuse for where and why a person left this life.
It's horrible to do that to anyone let alone a child.
It's also not true.
Read the Nicene Creed if you like. Take it apart, digest it, see if it says anything about going to heaven. Does it not speak of a resurrection?
Most all Christian churches espouse the Nicene or Apostles Creed yet those same churches talk about "good" Chrisitans going to heaven and "bad" ones going to hell to be tormented.
Sorry about the slight rant but it really hurts me to know people tell little kids awful things about god ( or God ).
Listen folks: I'm now 68, crippled and in permanent intractable pain, my youngest (to the ex) son is 15, his bro is 8, I'd take that little boy on in a second.
My son and I am very, very, close and I've raised him with the truth about Chrisitanity as best as I can. He knows he can keep an open mind & is not jaded by anyones preaching.
Whew. I'm done now.

 

[Clear]

1) Regarding the use of “graves” in vs 28

E.R.M. quoted John 5:28-30 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice [29] and come out---those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Faybull claimed : “For starters, it isn't "graves". (post #4)

E.R.M. said : “Then what does John 5:28 say if Not ' graves' ?”(post #10)



E.R.M. I'm not sure what Faybull is referring to since, your text was perfectly correct in using “graves” for koines’ “μνημειοις” (the greek word rendered “graves” in 5:28).

Some texts may render "μνημειοισ" as “Tombs” (NA-27) or others would even be correct if they used “monuments” IF the context is a place of interment associated with a special “remembrance” of the dead since "remembrance" is the secondary meaning in this case. However, since graves also had markers for “remembrance” without context forcing the meaning of "monument" (of the dead), then “graves” is perfectly fine.

Since verse 25 uses the generic term for “the dead” (pl – οινεκροι) i.e. “…the hour is coming, and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God…”. Thus in this verse one should NOT assume a monument or tomb is meant, but instead is speaks of the “dead”. Thus, if vs 28 is a parallel, then it also may certainly apply to a generic class as well.

If anyone has any reason why we should break the assumption of parallelism in these two verses, I could certainly change this model.



2) Regarding the earliest Christian worldview and interpretation described in the earliest texts

The earliest textual Judeo-Christian traditions held that all when anyone died, their physical bodies remained behind in the grave and their cognizant spirits went to a “world of spirits” called “hades” (and it had other names as well). The early Judeo-Christian literature is replete with traditional teachings about this place where spirits awaiting the resurrection dwelt.



Clear
ειτωειω

 

[e.r.m.]

1) Regarding the use of “graves” in vs 28

E.R.M. quoted John 5:28-30 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice [29] and come out---those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Faybull claimed : “For starters, it isn't "graves". (post #4)

E.R.M. said : “Then what does John 5:28 say if Not ' graves' ?”(post #10)



E.R.M. I'm not sure what Faybull is referring to since, your text was perfectly correct in using “graves” for koines’ “μνημειοις” (the greek word rendered “graves” in 5:28).

Some texts may render "μνημειοισ" as “Tombs” (NA-27) or others would even be correct if they used “monuments” IF the context is a place of interment associated with a special “remembrance” of the dead since "remembrance" is the secondary meaning in this case. However, since graves also had markers for “remembrance” without context forcing the meaning of "monument" (of the dead), then “graves” is perfectly fine.

Since verse 25 uses the generic term for “the dead” (pl – οινεκροι) i.e. “…the hour is coming, and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God…”. Thus in this verse one should NOT assume a monument or tomb is meant, but instead is speaks of the “dead”. Thus, if vs 28 is a parallel, then it also may certainly apply to a generic class as well.

If anyone has any reason why we should break the assumption of parallelism in these two verses, I could certainly change this model.



2) Regarding the earliest Christian worldview and interpretation described in the earliest texts

The earliest textual Judeo-Christian traditions held that all when anyone died, their physical bodies remained behind in the grave and their cognizant spirits went to a “world of spirits” called “hades” (and it had other names as well). The early Judeo-Christian literature is replete with traditional teachings about this place where spirits awaiting the resurrection dwelt.



Clear
ειτωειω

Interesting, thank you.

 

[e.r.m.]

1) Regarding the use of “graves” in vs 28

E.R.M. quoted John 5:28-30 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice [29] and come out---those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Faybull claimed : “For starters, it isn't "graves". (post #4)

E.R.M. said : “Then what does John 5:28 say if Not ' graves' ?”(post #10)



E.R.M. I'm not sure what Faybull is referring to since, your text was perfectly correct in using “graves” for koines’ “μνημειοις” (the greek word rendered “graves” in 5:28).

Some texts may render "μνημειοισ" as “Tombs” (NA-27) or others would even be correct if they used “monuments” IF the context is a place of interment associated with a special “remembrance” of the dead since "remembrance" is the secondary meaning in this case. However, since graves also had markers for “remembrance” without context forcing the meaning of "monument" (of the dead), then “graves” is perfectly fine.

Since verse 25 uses the generic term for “the dead” (pl – οινεκροι) i.e. “…the hour is coming, and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God…”. Thus in this verse one should NOT assume a monument or tomb is meant, but instead is speaks of the “dead”. Thus, if vs 28 is a parallel, then it also may certainly apply to a generic class as well.

If anyone has any reason why we should break the assumption of parallelism in these two verses, I could certainly change this model.



2) Regarding the earliest Christian worldview and interpretation described in the earliest texts

The earliest textual Judeo-Christian traditions held that all when anyone died, their physical bodies remained behind in the grave and their cognizant spirits went to a “world of spirits” called “hades” (and it had other names as well). The early Judeo-Christian literature is replete with traditional teachings about this place where spirits awaiting the resurrection dwelt.



Clear
ειτωειω

I did not say: "Then what does John 5:28 say if Not 'graves'?"

 

[Clear]

e.r.m. you are correct. I attributed the question to the wrong poster. I apologize. Thank you for the correction.

Clear.

 

[moorea944]

Doesnt the bible say that no one has ever gone to heaven except for Christ? Three times in John, Jesus tells us when he goes to heaven, no one will ever follow him there. He has to come back!

Scripture tells us that when we die, we are our dead.
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Those are just two of many verses on death. Paul says that we have hope in the resurrection! Besides, does the bible tell us that Jesus will be here on earth forever when he comes back?

 

[moorea944]

What is a "soul" and what is a "spirit"?
In Hebrew a soul is just someone who is alive. A living, breathing frame.

In Hebrew a spirit is breath. But can written in many ways. Man has given man a "soul". The bible's "soul" is a living person. A soul can die, eat, cry, sleep, etc. But there are verses that say a soul can die. But so many people believe in the immortality of the soul. That is false doctrine.

 

[Katzpur]

What is a "soul" and what is a "spirit"?
In Hebrew a soul is just someone who is alive. A living, breathing frame.

In Hebrew a spirit is breath. But can written in many ways. Man has given man a "soul". The bible's "soul" is a living person. A soul can die, eat, cry, sleep, etc. But there are verses that say a soul can die. But so many people believe in the immortality of the soul. That is false doctrine.

I believe a soul can die, but that's only because when the spirit leaves the body, there is no longer "a living soul." That doesn't mean the spirit has ceased to exist, though.

 

[psychoslice]

In my Christian beliefs that I no longer have, when we die we all sleep in our grave, its no until the second coming that those who are judged pure will be taken up into the clouds of glory to meet Jesus.

 

[jeager106]

In my Christian beliefs that I no longer have, when we die we all sleep in our grave, its no until the second coming that those who are judged pure will be taken up into the clouds of glory to meet Jesus.

Sir, how can you have belief you no longer have.
You still seem to believe but deny you believe.
One of us is confused tho we both respect one another.
I hunt game. I don't kill to kill little fuzzies. I was raised that way.
When I take the deer I pray and apologize to the Great Spirit for taking it's life, then promise to use the animal properly.
Ancient native american beliefs.
The soul is the life of the animal, it's a living soul, the spirit is the "life force or breath."

 

[sincerly]

moorea944 said: ↑
What is a "soul" and what is a "spirit"?
In Hebrew a soul is just someone who is alive. A living, breathing frame.

In Hebrew a spirit is breath. But can written in many ways. Man has given man a "soul". The bible's "soul" is a living person. A soul can die, eat, cry, sleep, etc. But there are verses that say a soul can die. But so many people believe in the immortality of the soul. That is false doctrine.

I believe a soul can die, but that's only because when the spirit leaves the body, there is no longer "a living soul." That doesn't mean the spirit has ceased to exist, though.

Katzpur, Moore gave you the meaning of "spirit" and "soul" as they were translated from the Hebrew. You accepted that the "soul" could die because Ezek.18 is hard to circumvent.

The body is "molded dust" into which the Creator GOD "breathed the breath of life". It wasn't just "wind", "breath", "spirit" that was imparted to that "dust"---It was life.
Yes, That "life" force came from GOD and it is returned to GOD. "Life" doesn't have a "life" of its own---is not another "self".
The Holy Spirit is the only SPIRIT with such an existence.

Jesus said .(John 10:17-18), "
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Life isn't something that one possesses---and can never lose. Jesus made that clear in Saying, (Mark 8:35-37), "
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

No place in the OT or NT usage of "soul or spirit" is there any "modifiers" of those words to indicate "immortality", "never dying", "deathless", etc.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur, Moore gave you the meaning of "spirit" and "soul" as they were translated from the Hebrew. You accepted that the "soul" could die because Ezek.18 is hard to circumvent.

I accepted the fact that a soul can die because that's what I believe. Don't try to tell me why I accepted it. For crying out loud, you can't read my mind!

The body is "molded dust" into which the Creator GOD "breathed the breath of life". It wasn't just "wind", "breath", "spirit" that was imparted to that "dust"---It was life.

So what? I agree.

Yes, That "life" force came from GOD and it is returned to GOD.

So what would want with a dead spirit?

"Life" doesn't have a "life" of its own---is not another "self".

Life doesn't have life? That doesn't even make sense.

The Holy Spirit is the only SPIRIT with such an existence.

Interesting opinion. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[sincerly]

[QUOTE="Katzpur, post: 4077927, member: 2540" !

Life doesn't have life? That doesn't even make sense.

.[/QUOTE]

Katzpur, Organic matter has "life" as given by GOD---there is no "life" apart from GOD.

 

[Yes]

John 5:28-30 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice [29] and come out---those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. [30] By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

It is common to say "This person has gone to be with the Lord", "He is looking at us from heaven now". But according to this verse, that is not so. Those who have believed in Christ and been baptized in His name for the remission of their sins, when they die, stay in their graves until Jesus returns. I recently heard Pat Robertson say that a person's spirit goes to heaven, but they are reunited with their body at the resurrection. As I understand it here, the dead will here his voice. I believe their spirit, not their bodies, hear his voice, but I could be wrong on that.
However, why have the final judgement, if everyone is already in heaven or hell?

Do you believe we are sent to our ultimate destinaton upon our death or at judgement day?

Thank you.

When a Christian dies they go in their spirit to heaven with Jesus.

Those who die before the coming of Jesus have their bodies in the grave, and their spirits in heaven. When Jesus comes again, he will bring with him the spirits of those who died.


1 Thessalonians 3:13
May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.


Then, Jesus will give the command, and the dead will rise with new bodies.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then those who are still alive when Jesus comes, will be changed to new immortal bodies.


1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


We will all be caught up in the clouds with Jesus in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:…15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

 

[sincerly]

When a Christian dies they go in their spirit to heaven with Jesus.

Those who die before the coming of Jesus have their bodies in the grave, and their spirits in heaven. When Jesus comes again, he will bring with him the spirits of those who died.


1 Thessalonians 3:13
May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.


Then, Jesus will give the command, and the dead will rise with new bodies.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then those who are still alive when Jesus comes, will be changed to new immortal bodies.


1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


We will all be caught up in the clouds with Jesus in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:…15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

Yes, when you look at those verses closely, you will notice that Jesus isn't bringing "spirits" with HIM , but all the Holy Angels. Matt.25:31-34

The righteous dead and the righteous living both have to put on the same eternal life and immortality---and meet the returning Jesus in the air.

 

[Yes]

Yes, when you look at those verses closely, you will notice that Jesus isn't bringing "spirits" with HIM , but all the Holy Angels. Matt.25:31-34

The scripture I gave says holy ones, and other translations say saints.

You have not disproved the scripture I have.

One scripture says Jesus is coming with his holy ones, and another scripture says he is coming with angels. We can know that Jesus is coming with his holy ones and the angels.

The righteous dead and the righteous living both have to put on the same eternal life and immortality---and meet the returning Jesus in the air.

Your soul sleep doctrine is a doctrine of death.
You do not know and understand about our spirits.

We are not just flesh. We are flesh and spirit.

Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
Yes, when you look at those verses closely, you will notice that Jesus isn't bringing "spirits" with HIM , but all the Holy Angels. Matt.25:31-34

The scripture I gave says holy ones, and other translations say saints.

You have not disproved the scripture I have.

True. However, that doesn't change Matt.25:31-35

Look at Matt.27:50-53, "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
These were the fruit of the Resurrection Jesus would accomplish of those who sleep in the grave.
Jesus had just died and those Dead Saints were raised from the grave---NOT brought down from heaven.

One scripture says Jesus is coming with his holy ones, and another scripture says he is coming with angels. We can know that Jesus is coming with his holy ones and the angels.


Your soul sleep doctrine is a doctrine of death.
You do not know and understand about our spirits.

We are not just flesh. We are flesh and spirit.

Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.

You are fighting against Jesus who acknowledged Lazarus as being in the sleep of death. ---which all mortals will die.(First death)
Our "spirit " is the "ruwach" (Hebrew)= breath of life.
When GOD takes back the "breath of life", one is left a "dead" pile of dust.
It is only at the second coming that the redeemed/righteous mankind will again have "life" and this time "put on immortality"/everlasting life".