Jesus vs Paul (eating idol meat)

[Simplelogic]

HK, You should have stopped with saying Paul was right.
Jesus said to go to the lost sheep of Israel, because they had/were given the Oracles of GOD and had rebelled. After the crucifixion the Gentiles an Samaritans would better understand the Good News of Salvation.Jesus only taught that which the Father had given HIM to say/do. Paul stated that which he taught was revealed to him by Jesus. and Paul believed that which was in the law and in the prophets.
Paul told how those OT Prophecies were fulfilled.
Those OT sacrificial laws were fulfilled in the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ upon the cross.
Gal.1:11-12, Paul's authority, "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

At least Harikrish is being honest about the obvious difference between Jesus and Paul's words.

 

[Simplelogic]

sincerly said: ↑
SL, that site is not portraying Paul's belief correctly, nor is the wikipedia. The NIV is placing the opinions of its compilers in the verses.
Here is the KJV of 1 Cor.10:14-33."
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved."
Click to expand...



SL, quoting from sites that are claiming the same erroneous material doesn't make it right. The Holy Scriptures are true and condemn those argument you are supplying.
2Pet.3:15-16, has this to say concerning Paul's writings, "
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Let's look at the "All things" wording in the context of 1 Cor.10:1-+
Paul said to flee from Idolatry. That was GOD'S position as well.
Man made whatever to worship---it was his idol. Those who believed in such man made idols made offerings to them.
The material from which those idols were made was first made by the Creator GOD. Therefore, All things GOD made was "very good".
Man defiled/corrupted/ made abominable that which was "good" by transferring worship from the Creator GOD to a man-made god. Whatsoever was offered to that idol and the believer in that idol partook of the sacrifice in worship to it was condemned by the true GOD.

Paul is saying a believer in the Creator/savior cannot sit at both GOD'S Communion table and the table worshiping the devil.
Where did some of those Corinthians come from who were now converted from idol worship to following/believing in the Sacrifice Jesus Christ has made for their Salvation. Previously worshiping at the tables of idols. Some of them were still hanging to the belief that the idol had power and were struggling with that animal flesh question.

Paul, like the prophets and GOD before had pointed out, wrote very clearly that vs.18-20,
"Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils."
The sacrificed clean animals were eaten by the Levites who attended to the sanctuary services.
The difference was Who or what was being worshiped.
The animal's flesh was not rendered inedible.
That is the point Paul was making. The Idol is just whatever it was fashioned from---a nothing/not a god with power. Therefore, the animal offered could not be tainted---so, when you buy your flesh meats from the market don't question where it was killed or the purpose. Its the flesh from a clean animal.

In Acts. 24:14 we find Paul's attestation of beliefs shortly before his death. "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

Therefore, the "All things" are those written in the "Law and in the prophets"
Just because something is "lawful" doesn't mean that it is uplifting or edifying for another at that time.

The site you quoted is still wrong as is some of the NWT.

Worst rebuttal ever. I gave a logical interpretation of the text and you are dancing around it now by bouncing to different scriptures which you think help your case.

You even quoted from 2 peter, an obvious forgery which many scholars freely admit now. Peter's name isn't even spelled correctly in 2 Peter!

Please explain what Paul meant by saying "my freedom" then. What was Paul free from?

 

[fantome profane]

Thats fine if you see it that way. As long as its clear that Jesus had a completely different view.

I don't really care, but no, I don't think it is clear at all what Jesus thought. I think it is very difficult to really know what Jesus really thought or really said on any topic. It is especially nebulous when you are using as your source a vision or a dream that someone had such as the book of revelation.

And there is the Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." Honestly I don't know if Jesus really said this either, but I think is is slightly more likely to be authentic than Revelations is. But still as I say nothing is clear.

 

[sincerly]

Jesus through his reckless act maligned the pig. Pigs are not meat of idol worship. They were innocent bystanders.

Mark 5:15
He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

From the Corinthian sacrifices which Paul was referring to, one gathers that the "sold in shambles" and that "Believers were buying was of the varity of animals which GOD had stated were "clean"/to be eaten". That would exclude the "pig and other unclean animals"---that may have been "sacrificed to their idols".

"innocent bystanders", but unclean for human consumption.

 

[sincerly]

Are you seriously saying that Paul was right and Jesus was wrong??? Yet you still call this "Christianity"???

SL, Jesus was correct in HIS teachings and actions and Paul was not contrary to, but affirmed their validity.
"Christian" was a name given the followers of those teachings rather than the false "teachings/doctrines and traditions" of men. (those made by the "fathers".)

 

[sincerly]

Therefore, the "All things" are those written in the "Law and in the prophets"
Just because something is "lawful" doesn't mean that it is uplifting or edifying for another at that time.

The site you quoted is still wrong as is some of the NWT.

Worst rebuttal ever. I gave a logical interpretation of the text and you are dancing around it now by bouncing to different scriptures which you think help your case.

You even quoted from 2 peter, an obvious forgery which many scholars freely admit now. Peter's name isn't even spelled correctly in 2 Peter!

Please explain what Paul meant by saying "my freedom" then. What was Paul free from?

SL, the dancing is in your assessing non-scriptural sites for "so called logical answers" to the validity of the scriptures.

I take it you are inquiring about Paul's writing in 1Cor. 10:25, 27-33.
"Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved".

SL, Those converted Corinthians from idol worship and the pagan beliefs concerning idols was still fresh in some of the believers minds.
Paul was saying that The "clean animals" which one might encounter in the local market might have been offered to an idol. But you are not obliged to inquire as to the source of the slaughter. Buy and eat. By eating of flesh that GOD made and stated was "clean" your conscience is not defiled.
The same principle applies to a invitation to dine with an unbeliever and you are aware the the flesh is from a clean animal' Eat. However, if one should say that it was offered to idols---then don't eat because of that brother's conscience who pointed out that fact.(Not one's own conscience) because your conscience is at liberty/freedom to eat such because it is not condemned for eating the flesh from "clean animals" and giving GOD Thanks for it.
Therefore, the one's conscience that would be offended seeing a brother eating such is spared.

 

[sincerly]

I don't really care, but no, I don't think it is clear at all what Jesus thought. I think it is very difficult to really know what Jesus really thought or really said on any topic. It is especially nebulous when you are using as your source a vision or a dream that someone had such as the book of revelation.

And there is the Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." Honestly I don't know if Jesus really said this either, but I think is is slightly more likely to be authentic than Revelations is. But still as I say nothing is clear.

Fantome, As you indicated it is "Your "Thinking"/belief. Revelation was given as a guide for Believers from about 100 AD to the end of time.
Apparently, you do not fall into that category of people.

Yes, Matt.15:11, when looked at in context. is clear. The dirt one might have on one's hands doesn't defile one because it is eliminated in the excretion process. However, those spoken evil eminations which start in the mind and proceed out of the mouth are what does defile a person.

 

[Simplelogic]

SL, the dancing is in your assessing non-scriptural sites for "so called logical answers" to the validity of the scriptures.

I take it you are inquiring about Paul's writing in 1Cor. 10:25, 27-33.
"Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved".

SL, Those converted Corinthians from idol worship and the pagan beliefs concerning idols was still fresh in some of the believers minds.
Paul was saying that The "clean animals" which one might encounter in the local market might have been offered to an idol. But you are not obliged to inquire as to the source of the slaughter. Buy and eat. By eating of flesh that GOD made and stated was "clean" your conscience is not defiled.
The same principle applies to a invitation to dine with an unbeliever and you are aware the the flesh is from a clean animal' Eat. However, if one should say that it was offered to idols---then don't eat because of that brother's conscience who pointed out that fact.(Not one's own conscience) because your conscience is at liberty/freedom to eat such because it is not condemned for eating the flesh from "clean animals" and giving GOD Thanks for it.
Therefore, the one's conscience that would be offended seeing a brother eating such is spared.

What?? Yeshua, James and the Torah state to NOT eat it…period. Of course you should ask if the meat was offered to idols! What on earth are you talking about? CLEAN ANIMALS OFFERED TO IDOLS ARE FORBIDDEN BY JESUS HIMSELF!

19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Rev 2:19-20

14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Rev 2: 14

None of this has anything to do with clean and unclean like you keep suggesting. This is an easy command of Jesus which was obviously being ignored in the regions of Asia minor. Hey, isn't that where all of Paul's converts were?? This is how simple this was:

If an animal was offered to an idol, it was FORBIDDEN.

 

[Simplelogic]

I don't really care, but no, I don't think it is clear at all what Jesus thought. I think it is very difficult to really know what Jesus really thought or really said on any topic. It is especially nebulous when you are using as your source a vision or a dream that someone had such as the book of revelation.

And there is the Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." Honestly I don't know if Jesus really said this either, but I think is is slightly more likely to be authentic than Revelations is. But still as I say nothing is clear.

Why don't you look at the context of Matt 15 for clarity.

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

Notice this whole discourse is about a bogus hand washing tradition that the Rabbi's made up. This tradition was NOT in the Torah so Jesus was right to expose it. None of this has anything to do with the laws regarding clean and unclean animals.

3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. Matt 15: 3-11

Jesus is refuting something he called "a tradition of men". Obviously, kosher laws were not given by men but God Himself. Read a little context and you will find the answers you need.

 

[Pegg]

Jesus through his reckless act maligned the pig. Pigs are not meat of idol worship. They were innocent bystanders.

Mark 5:15
He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

What?? Yeshua, James and the Torah state to NOT eat it…period. Of course you should ask if the meat was offered to idols! What on earth are you talking about? CLEAN ANIMALS OFFERED TO IDOLS ARE FORBIDDEN BY JESUS HIMSELF!

19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Rev 2:19-20

14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Rev 2: 14

None of this has anything to do with clean and unclean like you keep suggesting. This is an easy command of Jesus which was obviously being ignored in the regions of Asia minor. Hey, isn't that where all of Paul's converts were?? This is how simple this was:

If an animal was offered to an idol, it was FORBIDDEN.

Paul was more intune with Jesus teachings then you may realise.
For example, Jesus said:
Matt 15:11 “Not what enters into his mouth defiles a man; but it is what proceeds out of his mouth that defiles a man.”

Eating meat sacrificed to idols is not the problem because Jesus said that the things entering our mouth is not what defiles us... its if someone participates in the worship of the idol. Jesus words in revelation even state that they were following the 'course of Balaam' which was actually when the Isrealites were sacrificing to the false god Peor.
Some christians back then were still participating in idol worship... similarly today when christians participate in idol worship by praying to mary or other saints, or when they participate in celebrations to false gods such as easter, the godess Estare or christmas which is the pagan festival to the sun god.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
SL, the dancing is in your assessing non-scriptural sites for "so called logical answers" to the validity of the scriptures.

I take it you are inquiring about Paul's writing in 1Cor. 10:25, 27-33.
"Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved".

SL, Those converted Corinthians from idol worship and the pagan beliefs concerning idols was still fresh in some of the believers minds.
Paul was saying that The "clean animals" which one might encounter in the local market might have been offered to an idol. But you are not obliged to inquire as to the source of the slaughter. Buy and eat. By eating of flesh that GOD made and stated was "clean" your conscience is not defiled.
The same principle applies to a invitation to dine with an unbeliever and you are aware the the flesh is from a clean animal' Eat. However, if one should say that it was offered to idols---then don't eat because of that brother's conscience who pointed out that fact.(Not one's own conscience) because your conscience is at liberty/freedom to eat such because it is not condemned for eating the flesh from "clean animals" and giving GOD Thanks for it.
Therefore, the one's conscience that would be offended seeing a brother eating such is spared.
Click to expand...

What?? Yeshua, James and the Torah state to NOT eat it…period. Of course you should ask if the meat was offered to idols! What on earth are you talking about? CLEAN ANIMALS OFFERED TO IDOLS ARE FORBIDDEN BY JESUS HIMSELF!

19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Rev 2:19-20

14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Rev 2: 14

None of this has anything to do with clean and unclean like you keep suggesting. This is an easy command of Jesus which was obviously being ignored in the regions of Asia minor. Hey, isn't that where all of Paul's converts were?? This is how simple this was:

If an animal was offered to an idol, it was FORBIDDEN.

SL. Jezebel and Balaam were persons of the OT abd Jesus in Rev. is using their examples to make a point concerning the "condition of the church"/assemblage of believers from about AD100 to the last group of believers before Jesus Christ returns.----seven ages(time periods.)
Notice with the first Church: Ephesus.(Rev.2:4), " Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."

Notice Paul's response to Daniel"s 7:25 Prophecy. 2Thess.2:3-4, "
Let no man deceive you by any means: (Jesus Christ's second coming)for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God"
Now note Paul's last meeting with the Ephesus leaders.Acts 20: , "
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
As prophesied so it occurred. and that condition(of the seven churches) is discribed in the examples of the past as know by the readers of the Scriptures.
In Rev.18:3, one sees the drunken condition of "all nations" who have partaken/been made "drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication". (False teachings)
Just as Israel had departed from GOD by the "Jezebel" and "Balaam" worship along with GOD.1Kings 16:31-33.

SL, Those previous Idol worshipers who had converted were no longer actively worshiping the idols. Paul had previously written to the Corinthians(1Cor.8:1-13), "
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak."

Now let's look at what James said/wrote(4:17), "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

Paul said to buy and not ask.---if your "conscience" believes that there is something of the idol worship which is still active in the flesh of the animal---then don't buy or eat.

To GOD"S believers, the unclean animals are scripturally not to be eaten. A portion of Clean sacrificial animals was eaten by the Levites.

 

[sincerly]

Paul was more intune with Jesus teachings then you may realise.
For example, Jesus said:
Matt 15:11 “Not what enters into his mouth defiles a man; but it is what proceeds out of his mouth that defiles a man.”

Eating meat sacrificed to idols is not the problem because Jesus said that the things entering our mouth is not what defiles us... its if someone participates in the worship of the idol. Jesus words in revelation even state that they were following the 'course of Balaam' which was actually when the Isrealites were sacrificing to the false god Peor.
Some christians back then were still participating in idol worship... similarly today when christians participate in idol worship by praying to mary or other saints, or when they participate in celebrations to false gods such as easter, the godess Estare or christmas which is the pagan festival to the sun god.

Pegg, By Paul's Answer to the meat question is there a "Estare"? But Jesus did resurrect and was born. YES! One should keep focused upon Jesus and not the associated trappings."Believers" are not worshiping the "non-gods" associated or imagined with such festivites..

 

[Desert Snake]

The verse is not referring to people who aren't worshipping the idol. It's clearly referring to worship & the partaking of the ceremonies, neither of which a 'Xian' ie Jesus follower would have to worry about.

 

[Simplelogic]

sincerly said: ↑
SL, the dancing is in your assessing non-scriptural sites for "so called logical answers" to the validity of the scriptures.

I take it you are inquiring about Paul's writing in 1Cor. 10:25, 27-33.
"Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved".

SL, Those converted Corinthians from idol worship and the pagan beliefs concerning idols was still fresh in some of the believers minds.
Paul was saying that The "clean animals" which one might encounter in the local market might have been offered to an idol. But you are not obliged to inquire as to the source of the slaughter. Buy and eat. By eating of flesh that GOD made and stated was "clean" your conscience is not defiled.
The same principle applies to a invitation to dine with an unbeliever and you are aware the the flesh is from a clean animal' Eat. However, if one should say that it was offered to idols---then don't eat because of that brother's conscience who pointed out that fact.(Not one's own conscience) because your conscience is at liberty/freedom to eat such because it is not condemned for eating the flesh from "clean animals" and giving GOD Thanks for it.
Therefore, the one's conscience that would be offended seeing a brother eating such is spared.
Click to expand...



SL. Jezebel and Balaam were persons of the OT abd Jesus in Rev. is using their examples to make a point concerning the "condition of the church"/assemblage of believers from about AD100 to the last group of believers before Jesus Christ returns.----seven ages(time periods.)
Notice with the first Church: Ephesus.(Rev.2:4), " Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."

Notice Paul's response to Daniel"s 7:25 Prophecy. 2Thess.2:3-4, "
Let no man deceive you by any means: (Jesus Christ's second coming)for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God"
Now note Paul's last meeting with the Ephesus leaders.Acts 20: , "
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
As prophesied so it occurred. and that condition(of the seven churches) is discribed in the examples of the past as know by the readers of the Scriptures.
In Rev.18:3, one sees the drunken condition of "all nations" who have partaken/been made "drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication". (False teachings)
Just as Israel had departed from GOD by the "Jezebel" and "Balaam" worship along with GOD.1Kings 16:31-33.

SL, Those previous Idol worshipers who had converted were no longer actively worshiping the idols. Paul had previously written to the Corinthians(1Cor.8:1-13), "
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak."

Now let's look at what James said/wrote(4:17), "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

Paul said to buy and not ask.---if your "conscience" believes that there is something of the idol worship which is still active in the flesh of the animal---then don't buy or eat.

To GOD"S believers, the unclean animals are scripturally not to be eaten. A portion of Clean sacrificial animals was eaten by the Levites.

You are diminishing the words of Jesus by your interpretation. Of course, Jesus was referring to "Old testament" prophets but he was using them to make a point about what was going on currently. Look at the verse again:

14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Rev 2:14

There is an obvious reason for Jesus mentioning Balaam. He was making a connection to the fake Christians in Asia who were following the same "doctrines" as Balaam was in the Old testament. And what was this doctrine? EATING MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS AND FORNICATION.

It seems you are attempting to water down these obvious warnings of Jesus in order to defend Paul's credibility. This is the sad reality for those who follow Paul. Jesus must diminish so Paul can increase!

 

[Simplelogic]

Paul was more intune with Jesus teachings then you may realise.
For example, Jesus said:
Matt 15:11 “Not what enters into his mouth defiles a man; but it is what proceeds out of his mouth that defiles a man.”

Eating meat sacrificed to idols is not the problem because Jesus said that the things entering our mouth is not what defiles us... its if someone participates in the worship of the idol. Jesus words in revelation even state that they were following the 'course of Balaam' which was actually when the Isrealites were sacrificing to the false god Peor.
Some christians back then were still participating in idol worship... similarly today when christians participate in idol worship by praying to mary or other saints, or when they participate in celebrations to false gods such as easter, the godess Estare or christmas which is the pagan festival to the sun god.

Yeshua was talking about a bogus hand washing tradition. NOT kosher laws which are eternal. Read the context. I already addressed this verse in detail above ^^^^

 

[Simplelogic]

The verse is not referring to people who aren't worshipping the idol. It's clearly referring to worship & the partaking of the ceremonies, neither of which a 'Xian' ie Jesus follower would have to worry about.

Wrong. It was an absolute statement regarding the prohibition against eating animals offered to idols. Thats what the text says. You can water it down all you want to make room for Paul. Most people do.

 

[Simplelogic]

Pegg, By Paul's Answer to the meat question is there a "Estare"? But Jesus did resurrect and was born. YES! One should keep focused upon Jesus and not the associated trappings."Believers" are not worshiping the "non-gods" associated or imagined with such festivites..

Maybe people should start listening to what Yeshua actually said instead of diluting his words for the sake of Paul.

 

[sincerly]

The verse is not referring to people who aren't worshipping the idol. It's clearly referring to worship & the partaking of the ceremonies, neither of which a 'Xian' ie Jesus follower would have to worry about.

Disciple, that was the message Paul was giving. "idols" are made by persons from whatever material and into a form which is the figment of their imagination---they are nothing/have no power/are not to be afraid of for conscience sake. Therefore, what has been offered to them hasn't been changed/defiled/etc---it is still the same animal's flesh which was alive prior to being killed.
Paul is saying to the converted previous idol worshiper to a follower of Christ who hasn't fully made that distinction of the Creator GOD being the only true GOD, when you go to the local meat market for your conscience sake--buy and eat that which you have chosen.
In Paul's confession that he "believed all things which are written in the law and in the prophets", that would include GOD'S prohibition against the eating of the unclean animals.(Lev.11/Deut.14)

Disciple, the meat market isn't the "temple of the god" where the animal was killed. Buying flesh food isn't an act of "worshiping".

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
sincerly said: ↑
SL, the dancing is in your assessing non-scriptural sites for "so called logical answers" to the validity of the scriptures.

I take it you are inquiring about Paul's writing in 1Cor. 10:25, 27-33.
"Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the [profit] of many, that they may be saved".

SL, Those converted Corinthians from idol worship and the pagan beliefs concerning idols was still fresh in some of the believers minds.
Paul was saying that The "clean animals" which one might encounter in the local market might have been offered to an idol. But you are not obliged to inquire as to the source of the slaughter. Buy and eat. By eating of flesh that GOD made and stated was "clean" your conscience is not defiled.
The same principle applies to a invitation to dine with an unbeliever and you are aware the the flesh is from a clean animal' Eat. However, if one should say that it was offered to idols---then don't eat because of that brother's conscience who pointed out that fact.(Not one's own conscience) because your conscience is at liberty/freedom to eat such because it is not condemned for eating the flesh from "clean animals" and giving GOD Thanks for it.
Therefore, the one's conscience that would be offended seeing a brother eating such is spared.
Click to expand...



SL. Jezebel and Balaam were persons of the OT and Jesus in Rev. is using their examples to make a point concerning the "condition of the church"/assemblage of believers from about AD100 to the last group of believers before Jesus Christ returns.----seven ages(time periods.)
Notice with the first Church: Ephesus.(Rev.2:4), " Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."

Notice Paul's response to Daniel"s 7:25 Prophecy. 2Thess.2:3-4, "
Let no man deceive you by any means: (Jesus Christ's second coming)for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God"
Now note Paul's last meeting with the Ephesus leaders.Acts 20: , "
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
As prophesied so it occurred. and that condition(of the seven churches) is discribed in the examples of the past as know by the readers of the Scriptures.
In Rev.18:3, one sees the drunken condition of "all nations" who have partaken/been made "drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication". (False teachings)
Just as Israel had departed from GOD by the "Jezebel" and "Balaam" worship along with GOD.1Kings 16:31-33.

SL, Those previous Idol worshipers who had converted were no longer actively worshiping the idols. Paul had previously written to the Corinthians(1Cor.8:1-13), "
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak."

Now let's look at what James said/wrote(4:17), "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

Paul said to buy and not ask.---if your "conscience" believes that there is something of the idol worship which is still active in the flesh of the animal---then don't buy or eat.

To GOD"S believers, the unclean animals are scripturally not to be eaten. A portion of Clean sacrificial animals was eaten by the Levites.
Click to expand...

You are diminishing the words of Jesus by your interpretation. Of course, Jesus was referring to "Old testament" prophets but he was using them to make a point about what was going on currently. Look at the verse again:

14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Rev 2:14

There is an obvious reason for Jesus mentioning Balaam. He was making a connection to the fake Christians in Asia who were following the same "doctrines" as Balaam was in the Old testament. And what was this doctrine? EATING MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS AND FORNICATION.

It seems you are attempting to water down these obvious warnings of Jesus in order to defend Paul's credibility. This is the sad reality for those who follow Paul. Jesus must diminish so Paul can increase!

SL, Paul exalted Jesus Christ as the only means of salvation and the certification of that fact is seen in Gal.1:11-12.
"It seems" that you want to nullify Paul's witness to the teachings which came from Jesus and agree with the Teachings of Jesus which came from the Father GOD.

Second, Revelation is written by John and are massages from Jesus to the believers from the first century to the "Behold, I come quickly".

SL, look at Revelation 1:19, "[Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter";

That is from the past scriptures; as they are unfolding now; and as they will unfold and come to pass in the future.
Yes, John uses the examples of the past to allow future Believers to have hope and courage to persevere until the end---even in times of persecution when there seems no hope for the future. GOD is faithful; HE who promised will fulfill them.
Secular history has confirmed that which was Scripturally presented in those chapters of Revelation and Daniel and is/was seen---even to this very day.
So, What are the "gods" of today that one is eating their "offerings". (The falseness in principle as were those of Jezebel and Balaam?)

 

[Pegg]

Maybe people should start listening to what Yeshua actually said instead of diluting his words for the sake of Paul.

Yes, thats right.... and what Jesus said was "Not what enters his mouth defiles a man..."

Clearly this is about eating. I'm not sure how you eat, but most of us put food into our mouth. Jesus is saying that nothing we eat can defile us. Therefore we can conclude that foods restricted in the mosaic law were not being restricted because they defiled a person. And meats eaten which had previously been sacrificed to an idol cannot defile a person either.

Paul is not out of harmony with Jesus words. Pauls explanation actually helps us to more accurately understand how Jesus words apply.