Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Did Paul corrupt the message of Jesus?
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Are Muslims right about Paul?
- Thread starter Simplelogic
- Start date
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Not in the way it is presented from that perspective, no.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
The mainstream interpretation of Paul was that the Law of Moses was completed in Jesus. Christians do not believe they are meant to follow the Law of Moses anymore. It seems that Jesus taught his followers to keep the Law until "heaven and earth pass away". Muslims also believe in the continued validity of the Law of Moses. Is this not the reality behind almost all Christian doctrine?
outhouse
Atheistically
The muslims are not right about Paul, or Jews or Jesus
Paul joined a Hellenistic movement in progress the diaspora, that was based on Jesus teachings.
The problem is these people were far removed from Jesus life. They did not corrupt his teachings, they just never knew them like the Aramaic Galileans did.
Corruption means they knew his teachings, and then perverted them the way islam did.
Islam plagiarized the whole bible and is a useless historical source for any aspect of Jesus or Israelite mythology.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Funny thing though: Paul is older than the gospel writings, where Jesus' teachings are found. Each writer had different reasons for writing and different audiences to whom they were writing.
But to answer the OP question: Muslims are rarely right about anything concerning Xy.
outhouse
Atheistically
No they don't.
They perverted what they wanted from Judaism.
Had they believed the validity, they would be Jews.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Paul's manuscripts dating earlier makes no difference. Clearly Jesus and the apostles lived before Paul. It doesn't mean his logic came first or anything.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Here is a small list of the differences:
Paul said all the Law was fulfilled in one word (a Pharisaic teaching). Romans 13:8-9, Galatians 5:14. Yeshua said otherwise, Matthew 22:27-40, Mark 29-31.
Paul declared ALL things lawful, I Corinthians 6:12-14, Colossians 2:16. Yeshua said otherwise, Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17, John 14:15.
Paul declared nothing unclean, Romans 14:14, I Timothy 4:1-5. Yeshua and James said otherwise, Acts 15:28-29, Revelation 2:14.
Paul claimed Christ abolished the Law, Romans 6:14, 7:4, Ephesians 2:15-16. Yeshua said otherwise, Matthew 5:17-20, 19:17, 28:20, Luke 16:17.
Paul claimed no one was justified by the Law, Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:11-12, 21. The scriptures say otherwise, II Samuel 22:21, Ezekiel 14:14, 20, Job 27: 29:14, Luke 1:5-6, James 2:20-22.
Paul claimed no man was justified by works of the Law, Galatians 2:16, 21. Yeshua and James said otherwise, Matthew 16:27, James 2:20-22.
Paul claimed the Law was ‘veiled’ (too hard to understand), II Corinthians 3:12-16. Moses said otherwise, Deuteronomy 30: 10-14. John tells us the law is not burdensome, I John 1:53.
Paul called Yahweh’s Law a ‘curse’, Galatians 3:13. (Galatians Chapter 3 and Romans Chapter 3 detail Paul’s attack on the Law). Yeshua instructed us to keep the Law,Matthew 19:17. He came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it, Matthew 5:17-18. The Law was a blessing, Deuteronomy 7:11-13, 11:26-27, 30:19-20.
Paul referred to the Law as ‘the ministry of death’, II Corinthians 3:7. Moses said otherwise, Deuteronomy 4:40, 5:29, 6:24-25, 30:15-20.
Paul declared he sinned because of the Law (this passage is really a piece of work), Romans 7:7-13. James told us that’s not so, James 1:13-14.
Paul speaks against questions he considers foolish, and genealogies, Titus 3:9. Since genealogies are immensely important to Adam’s seed and Satan’s seed in the old and renewed covenants, one must wonder why Paul tells Titus to avoid them.
*****
Paul claimed to be blameless (sinless) in the Law, Philippians 3:4-6.
Paul devalued the Sabbath, Romans 14:5-6.
Paul said all the Law was fulfilled in one word (a Pharisaic teaching). Romans 13:8-9, Galatians 5:14. Yeshua said otherwise, Matthew 22:27-40, Mark 29-31.
Paul declared ALL things lawful, I Corinthians 6:12-14, Colossians 2:16. Yeshua said otherwise, Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17, John 14:15.
Paul declared nothing unclean, Romans 14:14, I Timothy 4:1-5. Yeshua and James said otherwise, Acts 15:28-29, Revelation 2:14.
Paul claimed Christ abolished the Law, Romans 6:14, 7:4, Ephesians 2:15-16. Yeshua said otherwise, Matthew 5:17-20, 19:17, 28:20, Luke 16:17.
Paul claimed no one was justified by the Law, Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:11-12, 21. The scriptures say otherwise, II Samuel 22:21, Ezekiel 14:14, 20, Job 27: 29:14, Luke 1:5-6, James 2:20-22.
Paul claimed no man was justified by works of the Law, Galatians 2:16, 21. Yeshua and James said otherwise, Matthew 16:27, James 2:20-22.
Paul claimed the Law was ‘veiled’ (too hard to understand), II Corinthians 3:12-16. Moses said otherwise, Deuteronomy 30: 10-14. John tells us the law is not burdensome, I John 1:53.
Paul called Yahweh’s Law a ‘curse’, Galatians 3:13. (Galatians Chapter 3 and Romans Chapter 3 detail Paul’s attack on the Law). Yeshua instructed us to keep the Law,Matthew 19:17. He came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it, Matthew 5:17-18. The Law was a blessing, Deuteronomy 7:11-13, 11:26-27, 30:19-20.
Paul referred to the Law as ‘the ministry of death’, II Corinthians 3:7. Moses said otherwise, Deuteronomy 4:40, 5:29, 6:24-25, 30:15-20.
Paul declared he sinned because of the Law (this passage is really a piece of work), Romans 7:7-13. James told us that’s not so, James 1:13-14.
Paul speaks against questions he considers foolish, and genealogies, Titus 3:9. Since genealogies are immensely important to Adam’s seed and Satan’s seed in the old and renewed covenants, one must wonder why Paul tells Titus to avoid them.
*****
Paul claimed to be blameless (sinless) in the Law, Philippians 3:4-6.
Paul devalued the Sabbath, Romans 14:5-6.
outhouse
Atheistically
Yes it does.
It gives us a clear picture of what the early movement was like in the Diaspora.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
But which movement?
outhouse
Atheistically
No he did not.
That is what some Hellenistic author wrote many decades after Jesus death.
Not Isho
outhouse
Atheistically
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Paul:
Romans 13:8, 9 Do not owe anything to anyone except to love one another; for whoever loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. 9 For the law code, “You must not commit adultery, you must not murder, you must not steal, you must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this saying: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.”
Jesus:
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
The problem with trying to point out differences in Paul and Christs teaching is that Christ was teaching as someone under the mosaic law... but the mosaic law was put aside after Christ offered himself as a sacrifice. The very fact that gentiles and jews could afterward be joined together to worship the FAther is proof of that fact.
So all Pauls teachings are from that perspective... the worship of God through Christ rather then through the mosaic law.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
17Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 17-19
Are you suggesting that after Jesus rose from the dead this statement became irrelevant? Didn't Jesus say until "heaven and earth" pass away??
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Do you not see the difference in what Paul said and what Jesus said?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
The second (greatest) commandment does not take precedence over the first. Paul does not even mention the first commandment.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I am not a Muslim or a Jew.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
What law did those prior to the mosaic law follow? Think about it, the mosaic law was given by moses in the 15th century bce... but mankind has been around longer then that. What law did Abraham or Noah follow? It certainly wasn't the mosaic law and yet they were considered servants of God.
Do you have any idea of why they could be declared righteous without any knowledge of the mosaic law?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
But clearly, the gospel writers didn't know Jesus, and were writing 40-70 years after the fact. Paul began his ministry about 18 months after the fact, and wrote his first letter less than 10 years after the fact. Plus they each manipulated the stories and quotes to suit their own theological agendas. So, we only know "what Jesus taught" from the several POVs of the writers -- not Jesus, himself. Anyone should have (and probably did!) changed anything.