The "something can't come from nothing" argument

[1robin]

Here’s the timeline I’m looking at:

7:15 am
Pam is brought into the operating room, given general anesthesia and lost conscious awareness. Her eyes were lubricated and taped shut. She was put on artificial respiration. EEG electrodes were attached to monitor her cerebral cortex. Her head was shaved and fastened to the operating table. Her body was prepped for surgery. Speakers emitting a pulse were secured to her ears with gauze and tape.

8:40 am
The tray of surgical instruments was uncovered. Dr. Spetzler made an incision her Pam’s scalp, pulled the skin back and began cutting through her skull with a surgical saw in order to remove a piece of it. This is the moment Pam says she felt herself “pop” out of her body and hover above it. She says she saw that her head at been partially shaved instead of the whole head, as she had imagined. She says she saw and heard the bone saw they were using to cut through her skull. Pam said there was a nurse standing to her right who said something about her arteries being too small.

10:50 am
Because her arteries were too small, a surgical tube was inserted into her left femoral artery. Her blood was circulated through the cardiopulmonary bypass machine, cooled and circulated back into her body. Her body temperature began to fall.

11:05 am
Pam’s heart stopped, her EEG flattened and her brain stem became unresponsive. She was cooled to 60 degrees.

11:25 am
The bypass machine was turned off and the blood emptied from her body. She was now “clinically dead.” This is where she says she floated out of the operating room and down a tunnel of light where she met various relatives and some strangers.

12:00 – 12:30 pm
When all the blood had drained from Pam’s brain, her aneurysm collapsed and was clipped off. Shortly after, warm blood was circulated back into her body, her body temperature increased, her brainstem began responding again and the EEG recorded electrical activity in her cerebral cortex.

Somewhere in this time Pam developed an abnormal and potentially lethal heart rhythm which was restored to normal with an electrical shock and her heartbeat returned to normal.

12:32 pm
The bypass machine was turned off after her body was returned to near normal temperature. The wounds in her head were closed up while the doctors listened to music (including Hotel California which Pam says she heard). Her heartbeat and body temperature were slightly below normal throughout this time and she was put back on artificial respiration.

2:10 pm
Pam was taken to the recovery room.

Near death, explained - Salon.com
pam reynolds nde

Judging from this timeline, her experiences wherein she says she was above her body watching the surgery all occurred before the blood was drained from her body and her brain. (I bolded the part of the timeline where she was officially “clinically dead.”) Notice it occurred long after she said she felt herself pop out of her body and hover above it watching the surgery.

The part about the tunnel and the light could have occurred in a microsecond in her mind at any time before the blood was drained from her brain, or shortly afterwards when warm blood was circulated back into her body, though she was still unconscious. Not to mention that she was apparently awake when they brought her into the operating room so she would have been able to view her surroundings, at least momentarily.

Had she experienced anesthesia awareness (as it appears is the case) she wouldn’t necessarily have felt any pain because she was on high doses of sufentanil (a morphine-like drug) at the time.

So,
1. I don’t know why you say that. From what I’ve read, it seems perfectly reasonable that she experienced anesthesia awareness. Dr. Woerle, who has thoroughly investigated the surgery explains it as a classic case.

2. I don’t see where or how.

3. As noted above, she was on high doses of a morphine-like drug so it makes sense that she wouldn’t feel pain. Nobody is saying she had full consciousness during the time in question.
Third person awareness has been known to occur during cases of anesthesia awareness.


anesthesia and obe

I am out of time again. Fours hours to find out $600,000 worth of instruments did not work because a $.50 BNC internally failed. I will review this as soon as I am able. Looks like detailed stuff.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I guess you know more the a PhD in the relevant subject about a case you apparently did not read. You do not dream with no blood in your brain.


It was just part of the research. I am charged with providing information not making you accept it. Did you even read anything besides the quote?

Well come on now Robin. Dr. Fenwick isn't exactly in the mainstream on this. Plenty of other qualified Ph.D's and M.D.'s disagree with his conclusions.

If you read his Wiki page, several doctors have charged him with overlooking obvious psychological and physiological explanations for such things as NDE's.

 

[1robin]

Well come on now Robin. Dr. Fenwick isn't exactly in the mainstream on this. Plenty of other qualified Ph.D's and M.D.'s think disagree with his conclusions.

If you read his Wiki page, several doctors have charged him with overlooking obvious psychological and physiological explanations for such things as NDE's.

I had two minutes waiting on my boss so I will respond. It was not his merit or even his claim that I found absurd. It was the explanation. Lucid dreaming was given as an explanation for a dead patient. Anesthesia awareness is at least a workable attempt at an alternative. I do not expect anyone to be persuaded by a foot note but the response indicated that nothing but the footnote was read. I did not even read that last little quote. It was just included in the article so I left it. Chunk it if you want but do so for a good reason. No matter how bad a doctor he is, surely he knows about lucid dreaming.

 

[Thief]

I had two minutes waiting on my boss so I will respond. It was not his merit or even his claim that I found absurd. It was the explanation. Lucid dreaming was given as an explanation for a dead patient. Anesthesia awareness is at least a workable attempt at an alternative. I do not expect anyone to be persuaded by a foot note but the response indicated that nothing but the footnote was read. I did not even read that last little quote. It was just included in the article so I left it. Chunk it if you want but do so for a good reason. No matter how bad a doctor he is, surely he knows about lucid dreaming.

In a science program aimed directly at awareness, one participant was a anesthesiologist.

His report was simply a rehash of the question.
Where does the awareness go when the chemistry takes hold?

No one knows.

Where does it go when we die?

No one knows.

The lack of evidence stifles belief for some people.
Not me.

Too many of us to say we all fail and crumble to dust.....and nothing left standing.

 

[idav]

I had two minutes waiting on my boss so I will respond. It was not his merit or even his claim that I found absurd. It was the explanation. Lucid dreaming was given as an explanation for a dead patient. Anesthesia awareness is at least a workable attempt at an alternative. I do not expect anyone to be persuaded by a foot note but the response indicated that nothing but the footnote was read. I did not even read that last little quote. It was just included in the article so I left it. Chunk it if you want but do so for a good reason. No matter how bad a doctor he is, surely he knows about lucid dreaming.

Assuming they were monitoring the brain, there is no way to know someone is completely brain dead but it only needs a matter of about three mintes before the brain wont be able to come back without serious issue. So any experience is due to the brain activity or lack of activity. Patientz can never be determined to even have an obe even when they recall doctors nurses, lights sounds, the general groggy barely aware stuff. However some patients can even recall sounds and situations with great detail, but none of them ever see what someone would see if they were really floating, because that part is simply a dream, plain and simple.

 

[1robin]

In a science program aimed directly at awareness, one participant was a anesthesiologist.

His report was simply a rehash of the question.
Where does the awareness go when the chemistry takes hold?

No one knows.

Where does it go when we die?

No one knows.

The lack of evidence stifles belief for some people.
Not me.

Too many of us to say we all fail and crumble to dust.....and nothing left standing.

I agree with the intuitive nature of the question of what happens next. So many things are not sufficiently explained by chemistry and atoms that something else is almost a necessity.

 

[1robin]

Assuming they were monitoring the brain, there is no way to know someone is completely brain dead but it only needs a matter of about three mintes before the brain wont be able to come back without serious issue. So any experience is due to the brain activity or lack of activity. Patientz can never be determined to even have an obe even when they recall doctors nurses, lights sounds, the general groggy barely aware stuff. However some patients can even recall sounds and situations with great detail, but none of them ever see what someone would see if they were really floating, because that part is simply a dream, plain and simple.

They seem to think they have competent ways to do so, but Pam's case went beyond even all the tests. Her brain was literally drained of blood and shut off intentionally. Whatever chance her brain was still functional in these higher regions is, is dwarfed by the chances it was not. Besides we can only go with what evidence we have. All the evidence suggests she had no brain functionality, and certainly none that would allow for the experiences she had.

 

[SkepticThinker]

They seem to think they have competent ways to do so, but Pam's case went beyond even all the tests. Her brain was literally drained of blood and shut off intentionally. Whatever chance her brain was still functional in these higher regions is, is dwarfed by the chances it was not. Besides we can only go with what evidence we have. All the evidence suggests she had no brain functionality, and certainly none that would allow for the experiences she had.

You know I'm going to point out again that her experiences occurred before her brain was drained of blood.

 

[idav]

They seem to think they have competent ways to do so, but Pam's case went beyond even all the tests. Her brain was literally drained of blood and shut off intentionally. Whatever chance her brain was still functional in these higher regions is, is dwarfed by the chances it was not. Besides we can only go with what evidence we have. All the evidence suggests she had no brain functionality, and certainly none that would allow for the experiences she had.

Evidence suggests it couldn't be more than a couple minutes or she would have serious brain issues when coming back out. A dream only need to be a matter of seconds and seems like an hour or a whole day to the dreamer. So the odds are against complete brain death and a dream only needs seconds. Time is on sciences side there.

 

[Thief]

Evidence suggests it couldn't be more than a couple minutes or she would have serious brain issues when coming back out. A dream only need to be a matter of seconds and seems like an hour or a whole day to the dreamer. So the odds are against complete brain death and a dream only needs seconds. Time is on sciences side there.

Your post strongly indicates that 'time' is relative.
and I say it does not exist at all.

 

[idav]

Your post strongly indicates that 'time' is relative.
and I say it does not exist at all.

Thats its relative shows it exists.

 

[Thief]

Thats its relative shows it exists.

Not a force or a substance.
Only a quotient on a chalkboard.
A cognitive device created by Man to serve Man.

It's not real.

 

[1robin]

Evidence suggests it couldn't be more than a couple minutes or she would have serious brain issues when coming back out. A dream only need to be a matter of seconds and seems like an hour or a whole day to the dreamer. So the odds are against complete brain death and a dream only needs seconds. Time is on sciences side there.

This is actually very complex and I doubt you know the dream verses real time ratio. Dreams are almost certainly a function of the first regions of the brain to go out. I believe it is the motor skill cortex and it's sensory processing that is the last to go. However I am no doctor nor do I want to be (I will take the check though) so let me think if I want to get into a whole medical odyssey here. BTW this was an all or nothing emergency surgery. I think they would have pushed everything to the limits.

 

[1robin]

You know I'm going to point out again that her experiences occurred before her brain was drained of blood.

I know what your counter claim is but I suspect it will not bear up under much scrutiny. I know what your going to say before you do most of the time. I could almost have the debate without you but they would lock me up for it. That was not really about you. I have pretty much got the non-theistic routine down by now. How do you fit my post into your time table? It appears to me they are at odds but this demands more time that I have available lately.

My post suggests strongly she was under. I think it did so in her own words. One of her very first experiences was seeing them lower the saw to her skull. I would hope they at least thought she was out.

I skimmed your post but if accurate it does paint another picture. I am kind of ducking this debate for the moment. We fired a subcontractor cause their crap won't work and they all flew down here so they would get their cut of almost a million in a bonus. One threatened a law suite until our resident full bird colonel that flew gunships in Vietnam almost took his head off. Kind of tense now for an involved debate but feel free to remind me if I am distracted too long. Actually, I better cease and desist my work comments. Obama may be listening.

 

[1robin]

Your post strongly indicates that 'time' is relative.
and I say it does not exist at all.

You are the greatest (or most prolific) metaphysical speculator I have ever seen. I have never heard anyone on any side even hint that time does not exist. Someone needs to tell Einstein half his theory is out anyway. Space-time just won't do without time will it?

 

[idav]

I believe it is the motor skill cortex and it's sensory processing that is the last to go.

You can believe that but I have heard the studies suggest that the motor stuff is first to go. You feel like your moving in a dream but your are not. Dreams have been well studied comfirming what the brain is really doing to us. Your right I don't have dream time ration, I don't think there is an equation for that like there is in reality. Our brains are just great at processsing all that information in a dream state not in real time.

The features defining sleep have been identified for the most part, and like mammals, this includes reduced reaction to sensory input, lack of motor response in the form of antennal immobility, etc.
Neuroscience of sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[idav]

You are the greatest (or most prolific) metaphysical speculator I have ever seen. I have never heard anyone on any side even hint that time does not exist. Someone needs to tell Einstein half his theory is out anyway. Space-time just won't do without time will it?

I am pretty sure Einstein was aware what he was suggesting.

Albert Einstein, in his theory of special relativity, determined that the laws of physics are the same for all non-accelerating observers, and he showed that the speed of light within a vacuum is the same no matter the speed at which an observer travels. As a result, he found that space and time were interwoven into a single continuum known as space-time.
Einstein's Theory of General Relativity: A Simplified Explanation

 

[1robin]

I am pretty sure Einstein was aware what he was suggesting.

I was being semi-sarcastic.

 

[idav]

I was being semi-sarcastic.

Yeah I have noticed Theif likes to deny the contributions Einstein brought forth a hundred years ago.

 

[1robin]

You can believe that but I have heard the studies suggest that the motor stuff is first to go. You feel like your moving in a dream but your are not. Dreams have been well studied comfirming what the brain is really doing to us. Your right I don't have dream time ration, I don't think there is an equation for that like there is in reality. Our brains are just great at processsing all that information in a dream state not in real time.

Dreams are a terrible counter claim. ST's anesthesia awareness is much better though I don't think it will survive if I get enough time to investigate.

If what you said is true then evolution is going backwards. You need to breathe, not dream about breathing, if unconscious. I looked it up. We are both wrong. Anesthesia in large doses and this one would be huge decreases metabolism in the brain uniformly. The dream thing is silly but I will consider the anesthesia awareness time table thing when I get time.

Yale Scientific Magazine – How Anesthesia Affects the Brain