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Jesus or Christ Myth Theory

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

Your claim is a grandly overstated appeal to authority.
Which you defend only with further appeals to authority, whilst either attacking my authority or accusing me of failing to support an appeal to authority that I am not making.


Think harder. Come back another time.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
You didn't have to push me to agree with you that Jesus' historicity is not 100% proven. But since we have seemed to have established some common ground let's begin anew with a new discussion.

Do you believe that the evidence we have concerning the historicity of Jesus better supports a real person, or a fictitious mythical creation with no basis in reality?

I think it supports a basis in one or more real people and layers of myth.
Ahh, a great dilemma indeed. And one that all of us are afflicted with, it is just the extent to which we allow our intellect/ego blind us to the truth that determines our level of wisdom, according to my admittedly biased opinion of course. ;)




In my opinion, it is very difficult for formal education to change opinions. Wisdom is what allows people to change opinions in the face of new information, and sadly wisdom is in short supply in the formal education process in my opinion.



I love playing in the mud though, and I love throwing mud while protecting education and knowledge even more. :D
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
How's it goin'? :)

It should not be like this:

th
................................. :run:

It should be like this:-
Legion and Bunyip:
th



:D
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Legion

Your claim is a grandly overstated appeal to authority.
Prove it. If you can't demonstrate it, then you're appealing to authority.


Which you defend only with further appeals to authority

Actually, I defend my arguments in many ways:
1) The fact that you have either relied on appeals to authority that are fallacious, relied on ad hominem arguments, or played the victim
2) That for every time you argue someone else is appealing to authority you've done the same
3) That you can't even demonstrate an understanding with the actual fallacy of appealing to authority.
4) By using what scholars (from nuclear physicists to classical historians) use: expert knowledge and scholarship.

You've quoted a dictionary, cited Richard Carrier in the same post you demonstrated a position utterly opposite his own, and defended you positions with appeals to authority in a general sense rather than real citations/references:

whilst at the same time mocking mercilessly any who actually do understand the nature of historical research

Have you ever indicated in any sense that you are aware of what historical research consists of? Oh wait, you've appealed to your own authority:
Well my field is history

Yes I am familiar with the nature of the evidence. I majored in ancient history.

Nonetheless, you've continually appealed to "authority" in your nebulous references to "historians" and historical research you won't and can't name. One example (given how many I've already shown) will suffice:
For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert, I could post as many citations to support or deny anything.
Do so. Stop confusing fallacious appeals to authority with legitimate reference to expertise while simultaneously relying on fallacious appeals to authority. You continually spout on and on about what some nebulous "historians" would think, do, believe, etc., in order to make your arguments but not only can't you substantiate your claims, you attack the use of scholarship as fallacious (and refuse to even defend your misuse of the fallacy "appeal to authority" just as you have refused to defend your appeals to authority).

whilst either attacking my authority or accusing me of failing to support an appeal to authority that I am not making.

Continue to regurgitate. I don't care. It's easy to quote you contradicting yourself. Anybody capable of reading can see you contradict yourself and weasel out of your promises to support your position with any evidence. Can you do the same? No. You just "whinge", play the victim, and rely on ad hominem.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

Sorry mate, I am not interested in responding to the same whines, gripes and whinges over and over again. You childishly and repetitively attack me instead of the argument and I am pretty much bored to death with the pointlessness of trying to engage with you.

If complaining endlessly like a kid who dropped his icecream counted as evidence, then you would be a winner.

Debate is all about addressing the argument, not your endless dishonest accusations. I have asked you over and over to desist with the silly accusations and stick to debate, but you refuse and repeat the same accusations over and over and over, ignoring the fact that they have been addressed.

You are quote correct in one respect, I do not defend myself against your accusations - I am not interested in countering them, they are just your way of deflecting from the point anyway.
 
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nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
I think it supports a basis in one or more real people and layers of myth.

Why evidence do you have that made you believe that it might be based on one real person versus many real people?

Contrarily, what evidences the layers of myth, or in other words, what parts of the mythological parts where put into the story and why?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Why evidence do you have that made you believe that it might be based on one real person versus many real people?

Thanks for the straight question. I would identify the body of evidence known to exist now. The NT, Josephus, Tacitus et al.
Contrarily, what evidences the layers of myth, or in other words, what parts of the mythological parts where put into the story and why?

Well the whole messiah, death and ressurection thing is a pretty common theme for starters. I'd be happy to elaborate.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well the whole messiah, death and ressurection thing is a pretty common theme for starters. I'd be happy to elaborate.

Please do. What "themes" as evidenced in what sources and why would a Jewish Aramaic speaking community (already thought of as atheists for being monotheists) invent a deified savior figure to be persecuted both by other Jews and by surrounding Hellenistic peoples (including Nero, who blamed the Christians for the Great Fire of Rome before most of the gospels were written)? If the theme were so common, why such a hostile reception?

More importantly, what sources testify to a death and resurrection of an individual placed in an historical context? Mithra(s), the savior god whose origins date from the beginning of the 2nd century CE, not only wasn't resurrected but was never said to have lived. Osiris, in the most common version of the myth, wasn't resurrected but reassembled (and became lord of the land of the dead). More importantly, he is again set in some nebulous time and place with less real historical connections than we have for Achilles.

Paul, a contemporary source (based on this word as historians use it), knew Jesus' brother and followers. He tells us of a teaching of Jesus on divorce (unique in the ancient world) that is likewise attested to in Q and Mark. When he refers to Jesus as risen, he doesn't simply say Jesus rose from the dead but names those who supposedly witnessed this, including those he knew (and himself, of course). He doesn't place Jesus' death in some mythic past but rather in the immediate past: he refers to what is now referred to as "the last supper" as occurring before Jesus died, and his "resurrection" a singular event that occurred 3 days after his death witnessed by those contemporary to Paul (like Kephas/Peter). We can imagine that such witnesses were lying, that they hallucinated, that the crisis of losing their movement's leader resulted in a phenomenon similar to that common in certain today: "The voice of a dead spouse is a hallucination (meaning an abnormal sensory process) among North Americans, for whose reference group the experience is not normative...But it is a normal experience of bereavement among members of many American Indian tribes."
Kleinmann, A. (1988). "What is a psychiatric diagnosis" in Rethinking Psychiatry: From Cultural Category to Personal Experience. Free Press.

Whatever the explanation, Paul doesn't tell us of a resurrected deity in some mythic time or place. He anchors Jesus both to Jewish tradition (however manipulated/interpreted his "gospel/good message" may be) and to persons he knew personally, including the brother of this executed Galilean named Jesus. The titular "Christ" means nothing outside of a Jewish framework. Paul never refers to Jesus as a god and neither do the gospels.

Prior to the gospels and Paul, there is no evidence for dying and resurrecting gods (nor much afterwards) or for savior deities, but what evidence ever exists was never tied to a specific cultural, temporal, and geographic setting so close to the time our first evidence for such a cult/movement exists.

What's common?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

A conversation with you would be as pointless as the last one. No thanks.

Dying and resurrected gods were commonplace, there were dozens. I'm not interested in challenging such a facile rebuttal.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Legion

So Osirus wasn't ressurected, he was reassembled?

For god's sake think harder.

I don't have to think, having read the primary sources. Please cite any ancient account of Osiris' death in which he was said to have died and was resurrected (rather than be put back together except for his penis, an integral part of the main variant of the myth). Then you can try to find actual sources for whatever you have or haven't read online or in popular books on the modern, made-up "death & resurrection" stories about Attis, Mithras, Adonis, Dionysus, Orpheus, etc. You may even find, as has long been known, that many of the cult traditions centered around figures popularly compared to Jesus in order to provide evidence for the Christ-myth theory were influenced by Christianity.

We've come a long way since armchair historians like Frazer and the unscientific psychoanalytic theory of Jung. We have more evidence, better methods, more disciplines, and far more experts (among other advantages). Frazer, an extremely erudite individual writing at a time when most of the methods and many of the fields which are used in historical research didn't exist, spent years re-writing his central work in order to make it defensible even then. That was before decades of study in fields as diverse as Homeric studies and Folklore studies to anthropology and cognitive science were incorporated into research on ancient history. Modern linguistics, invaluable for analyzing our texts, didn't exist. Neither did the fields of social sciences which have proved invaluable for understanding the socio-cultural matrix out of which the Jesus movement grew and subsequently Christianity. Archaeological, epigraphic, and even manuscript evidence was paltry and pathetic compared to what we have today.

Now, we have thousands and thousands of manuscripts from in and around the first century. We have abandoned the idiotic, unscientific psychoanalytic bunk along with the Marxian-like teleological models of history from armchair historians, a central basis behind the attempt by some scholars to make analogies and parallels between mythoi ~100 years ago. Such junk is relegated to websites and sensationalist drivel published by those like Freke, Gandy, Doherty, Murdock, etc. When the notion that Jesus likely never existed was still being actively debated among scholars in the late 18th and most of the 19th century, our knowledge of Greek was so inferior that philologists, classicists, and biblical scholars believed the Greek of the NT was unique (and therefore possible evidence of divine inspiration). Just as that bunk has been demolished, so to has the idea that superficial parallels between Christian tradition as espoused esp. in the NT and Greco-Roman myth, frequently made without reference to actual sources and/or to sources which postdate all the gospels, meant Christianity must have borrowed from paganism. It turned out that there was no "paganism" to borrow from in the way thought, as religion in that period was a matter of practice and indistinct from other private and public spheres of life, and that borrowing went both ways. Christians stole heavily from philosophers like Aristotle while pagan cultic traditions borrowed heavily from Christian doctrine and theology.

I won't bother to do what real historians do here and refer to actual scholarship, as you apparently think that the entirety of academic practice is a sham (whether it is physics of philosophy) because you equate citations of expert literature with fallacious appeals to authority. Instead, I'll ask you again to produce a shred of evidence for your claims. What documents can show demonstrated this "common theme" from which the Jesus movement could have borrowed, and then why the Jewish matrix out of which it grew makes any sense if based on such a "theme".

In short, do what you said you could & would:
Well the whole messiah, death and ressurection thing is a pretty common theme for starters. I'd be happy to elaborate.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well the whole messiah, death and ressurection thing is a pretty common theme for starters. I'd be happy to elaborate.

Perhaps asking you to do what you state you'd be happy to do was too much to ask. Did you want some help locating primary sources in order to indicate you can support that a thoroughly Jewish figure/concept as well as "death and resurrection" was a "pretty common theme"? To be clear, by primary I mean sources from antiquity and not popular books you might have read or websites you might have come across. I created the following thread a while ago to assist those interested in actually researching primary sources: Free online sites for primary source material of the ancient world (given the time lapse, I do hope all the links are still working; if not, let me know and I'll provide you with other resources you can use to determine whether your claim has any merit).
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Sure. Here's what you said:


You said you'd be happy to elaborate. Do so. For once, support a claim you make with evidence.

Yes Legion, but I was not talking to you.

I have no interest in a ridiculous exfhange with you about how Osiris magically doesn't count as an example of a resurection myth - because the details differ from the Jesus story.

It is a truly, transparently absurd non-sequitur and wasting my time as you go onto explain how all of the other examples don't count for similarly ridiculous reasons would be unbearable. You are making excuses, not an argument. Followed I assume by another silly exchange about who is defining 'resurrection' properly.

You rebuttal was that Osiris doesn't count because the details differ, and that there are no other resurrection myths - which ridiculous claim I imagine you will prosecute by pretending that some irrelevant difference in detail means that they don't count.

It is not a debate I am at all interested in having, it is about the worst rebuttal imaginable.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Perhaps asking you to do what you state you'd be happy to do was too much to ask. Did you want some help locating primary sources in order to indicate you can support that a thoroughly Jewish figure/concept as well as "death and resurrection" was a "pretty common theme"? To be clear, by primary I mean sources from antiquity and not popular books you might have read or websites you might have come across. I created the following thread a while ago to assist those interested in actually researching primary sources: Free online sites for primary source material of the ancient world (given the time lapse, I do hope all the links are still working; if not, let me know and I'll provide you with other resources you can use to determine whether your claim has any merit).

So, you have changed my claim from that ressurection myths were commonplace - so that the claim must magically include a 'thoroughly Jewish figure/concept ' etc? So you are going to dismiss all other resurrection myths unless they are about Jews huh? Try harder. I suppose in order for any examples to count they will also need to be called 'Jesus' huh? And have a mum called Mary? And be from the same year (not that you know Jesus DOB)?

So your rebuttal is essentially that my claim, that resurrection myths were commonplace was false because there is only one resurrection myth exactly the same in every detail as the one about Jesus? And you seriously expect me to swallow such bunk?
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes Legion, but I was not talking to you.

You were participating in a thread in a debate subsection of a discussion forum. Also, whether or not you what you said was directed at me is irrelevant to whether or not doing something you said you would be happy to do is actually something you would be happy to do. Either you can point to primary source material to support your claim, or you can't. Also irrelevant is how I might respond. If your claim has merit, then it does regardless of what I say.

I have no interest in a ridiculous exfhange with you about how Osiris magically doesn't count as an example of a resurection myth - because the details differ from the Jesus story.

I have no interest in making such a claim. I am interested, for one, in any evidence that you have actually read anything other than summary accounts of ancient myths by modern authors. Granting that you are familiar with ancient accounts (even in translation) of e.g., the Osiris stories, I am interested in what comparisons you make to the Jesus movement and why. This is not limited to the appropriateness of the word "resurrection", which is nothing compared to your assertion about a messiah theme:
Well the whole messiah, death and ressurection thing is a pretty common theme for starters.

What about a specifically Jewish understanding of a Hebrew word can be understood in terms of any "pretty common theme"?



It is a truly, transparently absurd non-sequitur and wasting my time as you go onto explain how all of the other examples don't count for similarly ridiculous reasons would be unbearable.

So it is worth the time to name comparisons, but not worth the time to show that they are valid? By valid, I don't simply mean they truly are analogous but that such instances can explain the Jesus movement without an historical Jesus. For example, it is certainly true that the Roman Mithras (unlike the Persian Mithra) is comparable in some ways to Jesus (namely, in the way he served as a savior deity). However, as Mithras postdates perhaps all of the canonical gospels, such comparisons do nothing to explain the origins of the Jesus movement.


You are making excuses, not an argument.
I'm not the one refusing to substantiate every claim I make. However, as I don't want to sink to your level, I will follow this post by addressing the argument that Jesus can be explained in terms of some common theme of dying and resurrecting gods (and do so without citing experts, or at least only including such citations for those who are interested in historical research rather than dogma).

You rebuttal was that Osiris doesn't count because the details differ

Wrong. The details between stories about the births of Alexander the Great & Augustus Caesar and the birth of Jesus. However, I think it is quite possible that the authors of Matthew and Luke relied (directly or indirectly) upon such stories to write the legendary account of Jesus' birth.

It is not a debate I am at all interested in having, it is about the worst rebuttal imaginable.

The worst rebuttal imaginable is what you imagine my rebuttal would be if you actually supported your claim? Interesting.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
You were participating in a thread in a debate subsection of a discussion forum. Also, whether or not you what you said was directed at me is irrelevant to whether or not doing something you said you would be happy to do is actually something you would be happy to do. Either you can point to primary source material to support your claim, or you can't. Also irrelevant is how I might respond. If your claim has merit, then it does regardless of what I say.



I have no interest in making such a claim. I am interested, for one, in any evidence that you have actually read anything other than summary accounts of ancient myths by modern authors. Granting that you are familiar with ancient accounts (even in translation) of e.g., the Osiris stories, I am interested in what comparisons you make to the Jesus movement and why. This is not limited to the appropriateness of the word "resurrection", which is nothing compared to your assertion about a messiah theme:


What about a specifically Jewish understanding of a Hebrew word can be understood in terms of any "pretty common theme"?





So it is worth the time to name comparisons, but not worth the time to show that they are valid? By valid, I don't simply mean they truly are analogous but that such instances can explain the Jesus movement without an historical Jesus. For example, it is certainly true that the Roman Mithras (unlike the Persian Mithra) is comparable in some ways to Jesus (namely, in the way he served as a savior deity). However, as Mithras postdates perhaps all of the canonical gospels, such comparisons do nothing to explain the origins of the Jesus movement.



I'm not the one refusing to substantiate every claim I make. However, as I don't want to sink to your level, I will follow this post by addressing the argument that Jesus can be explained in terms of some common theme of dying and resurrecting gods (and do so without citing experts, or at least only including such citations for those who are interested in historical research rather than dogma).



Wrong. The details between stories about the births of Alexander the Great & Augustus Caesar and the birth of Jesus. However, I think it is quite possible that the authors of Matthew and Luke relied (directly or indirectly) upon such stories to write the legendary account of Jesus' birth.



The worst rebuttal imaginable is what you imagine my rebuttal would be if you actually supported your claim? Interesting.

That was unreadable gibberish. The few elements that are not a repeat of your standard whines do not address the point anyway. Talk to someone else Legion.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

Your reponses are absurd, there is no link between the quote you give of me and your response. Look mate at this one; I said: "You rebuttal was that Osiris doesn't count because the details differ"

And you respond;

"Wrong. The details between stories about the births of Alexander the Great & Augustus Caesar and the birth of Jesus. However, I think it is quite possible that the authors of Matthew and Luke relied (directly or indirectly) upon such stories to write the legendary account of Jesus' birth."

Wrong Legion? Your rebuttal does not relate, reflect or respond to the quote YOU give.

How can anyone engage with you on rebuttals that are just tangential non-sequiturs lost in an ocean of pontificating cpndescension.

LEGION. Your rebuttal NEEDS TO RELATE TO WHAT YOU ARE REBUTTING!
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
That was unreadable gibberish. The few elements that are not a repeat of your standard whines do not address the point anyway. Talk to someone else Legion.

Point? WHAT point?! You don't HAVE a point. And every time you attempt to STEAL a point, like this instance where you pretend you'll expand on a point as potential evidence for a claim, you get pressed for evidence, exposed, and effortlessly brushed aside by anyone whose opinion matters. You just get OWNED over and over again by all comers. You are THAT easy.

You are NOT debating. You have NOT been debating for a long time.
 
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