The Trinity

[kjw47]

Actually that is where you have a problem. Because with other usage of the word Elohim, it does seem to imply plurality, not to mention the 'our' reference which in my book means 'God and the Host'. In any case, the trinity has always meant monotheism, and that is what the thread is about. If you choose to not accept the Deity of Jesus, that's your prerogative, but the meaning of the trinity stays the same.

Jesus warned all--- they do not know the one who sent me= Father=YHWH(Jehovah_ = psalm 83:18

 

[kjw47]

Please explain how you come to the conclusion that "the word is god(small g is correct)" is correct.

Because Jesus is not God--He is Gods son. Just like your son is not you--Jesus is not his Father.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus warned all--- they do not know the one who sent me= Father=YHWH(Jehovah_ = psalm 83:18

Whayt you're not understanding is that the trinity is implying a Deity Jesus, therefore it's multi-deity if Jesus isn't part of the Godhead.

 

[Katzpur]

Because Jesus is not God--He is Gods son. Just like your son is not you--Jesus is not his Father.

So are you saying that a God, who is divine, begat a son, who is not?

 

[Sonofason]

See all the scriptures---they back up every word I said.

If this is your idea of evidence, then surely you will never be capable of persuading me that you are right about anything at all.

 

[Sonofason]

Because Jesus is not God--He is Gods son. Just like your son is not you--Jesus is not his Father.

Please tell me exactly the point in time when the Life that was in me ceased and that of my daughter began. I assure you, there is only one Life. Life embodies many things, but there is only one Life.

 

[Jensen]

I believe you are correct in assessing what I said.

I believe I have God in me as Jesus prayed to have happen but I am not often one with God ie God taking over my mind because I am a sinner and like to run at least some of my own life and because God isn't going to bother with such things as brushing teeth and eating meals. These days I always have a God consiuosness but that is more of a background thing than control of my mind.

So I beleive Jesus may pray for us to be one but our tendency is to not have it that way.

I believe that he was saying that he, God, and us are one in unity. That is what those verses seem to say to me. I know that isn't quite what you believe but I think that is what those verses are saying in context and that is what Jesus meant. I think he is speaking in unity of purpose, will, righteousness, obedience, belief and acceptance of God, and not of substance, such as oneness or trinity, but more of being of like mindedness.

John 17

20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe that he was saying that he, God, and us are one in unity. That is what those verses seem to say to me. I know that isn't quite what you believe but I think that is what those verses are saying in context and that is what Jesus meant. I think he is speaking in unity of purpose, will, righteousness, obedience, belief and acceptance of God, and not of substance, such as oneness or trinity, but more of being of like mindedness.

You are 100% correct. This is, in fact, so obvious to me that I simply cannot understand how anyone can dispute it.

 

[kjw47]

I know all of you refuse to believe me---believe Paul--1Cor 8:6

 

[Christ's Prophet]

1+1+1=1? or 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1= something else?

Hi,
We must not judge God by our own fallible human wisdom. God can be any thing and manifest Himself in any way He wants. The real question, you must be asking 'what does Yahweh God say about Himself in the Bible?' The real trap is trying to put the Almighty God in a little box of our understanding. The Trinity is only man's way of trying to understand what God has said about Himself. If you don't like the word Trinity, then don't use it. There are many questions of which there are no answers as yet. For instance 'where is the edge of space? when did time begin? How can God be everywhere at once? My human mind cannot handle it. Just because it seems illogical, doesn't mean it isn't true. You are welcome to discuss more.
Albert Brownsey

 

[Desert Snake]

Albert BROWNSEY If you don't like the word Trinity, then don't use it.

Agreed, I'm always saying this. I think people need to accept what the Scripture says as opposed to trying to fit their own ideas into narrative making both meaningless. It's interesting, you don't seem to see this as much in other religions, like people don't go into the Buddhist DIR(forums) and say things like "Hey, Buddhist thought is actually completely Christian, Jesus said... etc." yet people feel so comfortable doing that with any Biblical text.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You are 100% correct. This is, in fact, so obvious to me that I simply cannot understand how anyone can dispute it.

Well, I don't see how anyone can dispute the Trinity and all those arguments fall flat to me.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, I don't see how anyone can dispute the Trinity and all those arguments fall flat to me.

Maybe we're talking about two different things, Frankie. I'm not denying the existence of a divine Father, a divine Son, and a divine Spirit. I'm not even opposed to referring to them all as "God." I'm just saying that their absolute unity is of will, purpose, mind and heart, and that they are physically distinct from one another. There is a separateness to them in addition to their unity, and this is something that Trinitarians always seem to want to downplay.

 

[metis]

If one actually uses the words found in the gospel and believe them, then Jesus simply cannot be God. The reason for this is that the words of Jesus have him referring to God as "the Father", thus being separate from he, plus Jesus at different intervals says there's things he does not know, such as when the end of times will be.

Instead, I believe the early church believed that Jesus was of God, which is a bit different. IOW, to me it appears they believed that Jesus was both prophet and the messiah, therefore of God. However, as time went on, one could pretty easily imagine how the "of" could have been dropped. The fact that the 2nd and 3rd century church struggled with this indicates that neither concept was a slam-dunk.

 

[Desert Snake]

If one actually uses the words found in the gospel and believe them, then Jesus simply cannot be God. The reason for this is that the words of Jesus have him referring to God as "the Father", thus being separate from he, plus Jesus at different intervals says there's things he does not know, such as when the end of times will be.

Instead, I believe the early church believed that Jesus was of God, which is a bit different. IOW, to me it appears they believed that Jesus was both prophet and the messiah, therefore of God. However, as time went on, one could pretty easily imagine how the "of" could have been dropped. The fact that the 2nd and 3rd century church struggled with this indicates that neither concept was a slam-dunk.

The term 'trinity' itself confuses people. The real definition is a concept that the church considers "monotheistic", so in that sense we can't really have 'seperate' deities here.
Non-trinis come in different variety, but main being 'Jesus IS God, no division, simply manifestations, and 'Jesus isn't part of the Godhead', but a separate entity altogether. Both could theoretically be supposed, however I don't think the major churches got the basic most traditional tenets wrong, they simply describe the Godhead in a certain manner.

 

[Christ's Prophet]

So are you saying that a God, who is divine, begat a son, who is not?

Hi,
The first error anyone can make in trying to understand God, is trying to put God within the confines of human wisdom and human understanding. If I was going to build a house, I must start with a good solid foundation, otherwise the house will crumble at the first storm. Our faith in God is the same way. We must start with the firm foundation of understanding God's word.
You must let God be God, and let Him tell you about Himself, and by faith and in prayer, we must accept what He says.
If the Father says that He is God, if the Son says that He is God, if the Holy Spirit says that He is God, and yet there is only one God, then we have to accept that. Your fearless investigation of the Scriptures is paramount. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit is everywhere to be found in the Scriptures.
Food for Thought. Albert Brownsey

 

[Christ's Prophet]

If one actually uses the words found in the gospel and believe them, then Jesus simply cannot be God. The reason for this is that the words of Jesus have him referring to God as "the Father", thus being separate from he, plus Jesus at different intervals says there's things he does not know, such as when the end of times will be.

Instead, I believe the early church believed that Jesus was of God, which is a bit different. IOW, to me it appears they believed that Jesus was both prophet and the messiah, therefore of God. However, as time went on, one could pretty easily imagine how the "of" could have been dropped. The fact that the 2nd and 3rd century church struggled with this indicates that neither concept was a slam-dunk.

Hi,
The first problem with that thesis is that there is no 'of' in any of the ancient Scriptures, and there are thousands of them.
The second problem with denying Jesus as the Messiah, is that He could prove His lineage, that is, He was of the lineage of David. The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come, and if someone did turn up claiming to be Him, the Jews would find it impossible to prove His Lineage, as the lineage has long been lost. Jesus is God, has always been God. God talks about His own Son...Read Hebrews
Hebrews 1:8 (KJV)
But unto the Son he saith, THY THRONE O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 1:6 (KJV)
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God WORSHIP HIM.
It is not permissible to worship anyone else except God.
And there are lost more...
Food for thought,

Certainty for eternity
Albert Brownsey

 

[Ouroboros]

What I don't understand is how this debate can still go on after 2,000 years.

 

[Nada]

According to the HS,there is no Trinity.It never mentions one.What many have come to believe as the Trinity is actually a false doctrine spread by men, and does not originate with Gods Word.

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

When many read this,they assume that this means that God,Jesus and the holy spirit are one,because of what has been taught by those who do not know the truth.This is incorrect.
God is the Almighty.Jesus is His Son and first creation.The holy spirit is Gods active force.The same force that was used to create the universe and inspire the holy scriptures to be written by man.

If you notice in the scripture,it never mentions the holy spirit.It only mentions God and Jesus.
When Jesus says that he and the Father are in each other,this simply means that it is a spiritual union.It is symbolic and not to be taken literally.

If it were to be taken literally,then,this next scripture would mean that all the people ,along with God and Jesus are in the holy Trinity.
John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

It is speaking of a spiritual union.Thats all.......
Also this one.John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.


Notice also that the holy spirit is never mentioned in any of these scriptures I have shown.
Think about that.If there is definitely a holy Trinity of three,then, why does it not mention three? It always mentions 2.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi,
The first error anyone can make in trying to understand God, is trying to put God within the confines of human wisdom and human understanding. If I was going to build a house, I must start with a good solid foundation, otherwise the house will crumble at the first storm. Our faith in God is the same way. We must start with the firm foundation of understanding God's word.
You must let God be God, and let Him tell you about Himself, and by faith and in prayer, we must accept what He says.
If the Father says that He is God, if the Son says that He is God, if the Holy Spirit says that He is God, and yet there is only one God, then we have to accept that. Your fearless investigation of the Scriptures is paramount. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit is everywhere to be found in the Scriptures.
Food for Thought. Albert Brownsey

Hello, Albert. I don't disagree with much of what you're saying, but I do think that Trinitarians are determined to make God so much more complicated that He ever wanted to be. Of course, He is beyond our comprehension, but we don't need to compound the problem by coming up with explanations of who and what He is that just end up going around in circles and leading nowhere except that we are supposed to apparently just accept that the whole thing doesn't make any sense. God is our Father in Heavern and He wants us to know Him. He also wants us to know His Son, Jesus Christ. To me, it just makes so much more sense to recongnize that the word "God" can be used to refer to the Father, or to the Son, or to the Holy Ghost -- individually. It can, however, also be used to refer to the three of them together, and in that sense, it is a collective noun -- much like the word "team." The Godhead is, according to my belief, made up of three individual persons. They are physically distinct from each other and are not all just somehow part of some kind of a huge, invisible essense which fills the world and cannot be divided into its component parts. They are "one" in every aspect except for the physical. They are each "God" (singular) and they are "one God" (collectively).