The Trinity

[Katzpur]

Three Persons in one perfect community that is God.

Well, I can go along with that as a general explanation. But that's not how the word "Trinity" is typically used. It gets a lot more involved than that, making our understanding of God far more complex than it was ever intended to be.

 

[sojourner]

Well, I can go along with that as a general explanation. But that's not how the word "Trinity" is typically used. It gets a lot more involved than that, making our understanding of God far more complex than it was ever intended to be.

God is extremely complex, don't you think? More complex than humanity can define -- or even describe through the use of one theological metaphor.

 

[Sonofason]

Being named with God does not make him God. Would you be God if named with God? Don't think so....

"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life;
and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
(John 1:1-5)

You see, "the Word was God".

"And the Word was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying,
This was he of whom I spake,
He that cometh after me is preferred before me:
for he was before me.
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time;
the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father,
he hath declared him."

Clearly, the apostle John is telling us here that Jesus is God. There is no way for anyone with integrity to deny it. Honesty and truth rule.

The Word was with God
The Word was God
The Word became flesh

1 John 5:20
King James Bible
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:"
(John 14:6)

Jesus knew exactly who He was.

"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
(John 8:57-58)

 

[sojourner]

"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life;
and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
(John 1:1-5)

You see, "the Word was God".

"And the Word was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying,
This was he of whom I spake,
He that cometh after me is preferred before me:
for he was before me.
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time;
the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father,
he hath declared him."

Clearly, the apostle John is telling us here that Jesus is God. There is no way for anyone with integrity to deny it. Honesty and truth rule.

The Word was with God
The Word was God
The Word became flesh

1 John 5:20
King James Bible
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:"
(John 14:6)

Jesus knew exactly who He was.

"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
(John 8:57-58)

It's a valiant try, but all this has been said -- and refuted -- before. Usually with fairly inane arguments. Those who deny the validity of the Trinity don't seem to have much respect for the biblical texts.

 

[Katzpur]

God is extremely complex, don't you think? More complex than humanity can define -- or even describe through the use of one theological metaphor.

No, not really. At least not "complex" in the way the creeds make Him. He is more powerful and intelligent than we can even begin to imagine, but as far as what His (i.e. God the Father's) relationship to His Son, Jesus Christ is, I don't believe that part is complex at all. I never cease to be amazed at the metaphysical hoops people are determined to jump through in order to explain how they are simultaneously two (or, if you add the Holy Ghost, three) and one. Thomas Jefferson once said, "It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one and one is three, and yet one is not three and three are not one." I couldn't agree more with his sentiment.

 

[Sonofason]

It's a valiant try, but all this has been said -- and refuted -- before. Usually with fairly inane arguments. Those who deny the validity of the Trinity don't seem to have much respect for the biblical texts.

You can say you've refuted something all day long, but until your refutations are accepted by me, you haven't actually refuted anything at all.

Try again.

 

[Katzpur]

It's a valiant try, but all this has been said -- and refuted -- before. Usually with fairly inane arguments. Those who deny the validity of the Trinity don't seem to have much respect for the biblical texts.

I have all the respect in the world for the Bible. It's the fourth and fifth century creeds I have no respect for.

 

[Jensen]

"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life;
and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
(John 1:1-5)

You see, "the Word was God".

"And the Word was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying,
This was he of whom I spake,
He that cometh after me is preferred before me:
for he was before me.
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time;
the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father,
he hath declared him."

Clearly, the apostle John is telling us here that Jesus is God. There is no way for anyone with integrity to deny it. Honesty and truth rule.

The Word was with God
The Word was God
The Word became flesh

1 John 5:20
King James Bible
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:"
(John 14:6)

Jesus knew exactly who He was.

"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
(John 8:57-58)

"Being named with God does not make him God. Would you be God if named with God? Don't think so...

This above is in response to the verses 1 Corinthians 8:1-13, specifically verse 6...

6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him......

in which Muffled said "The context is a contrast of God with idols. Jesus is not named with the idols, He is named with God."

And I replied "Being named with God does not make him God. Would you be God if named with God? Don't think so...

this was concerning verses 1 Cor 8:1-13 in that being name with God does not make one God, and not John 1.

 

[Jensen]

Would you mind providing chapter and verse so that I can look at it in context?

Exodus 7:1 (American Standard Version): And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee as God to Pharaoh and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Psalms 82:6: I said, Ye are gods And all of you sons of the Most High.

John 10:34-36: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

god simply means "mighty one" in the Bible.

 

[Sonofason]

"Being named with God does not make him God. Would you be God if named with God? Don't think so...

This above is in response to the verses 1 Corinthians 8:1-13, specifically verse 6...

6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him......

in which Muffled said "The context is a contrast of God with idols. Jesus is not named with the idols, He is named with God."

And I replied "Being named with God does not make him God. Would you be God if named with God? Don't think so...

this was concerning verses 1 Cor 8:1-13 in that being name with God does not make one God, and not John 1.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Son of God is God the Son.
The Holy Spirit of God is God the Holy Spirit.

All creatures both great and small are of the same kind as their fathers.

 

[kjw47]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Son of God is God the Son.
The Holy Spirit of God is God the Holy Spirit.

All creatures both great and small are of the same kind as their fathers.

A good day to you Sonofason,

Where as in the oldest writings---- John 1:1--In the beginning the Logos(word) was, and the Logos was with (ho) Theos, and the word was Theos.

The only word in greek for either-God-god--is Theos--For the true almighty God--(ho) Theos--for god=Theos.
The word was not being called--(ho) Theos--just Theos= small g god.---it carries the biblical meaning--has godlike qualities--because Gods power went through Jesus( Acts 2:22)--a very misleading error in trinity translations.
Another major error--worship to the Messiah. Obesiance goes to a king--The Messiah is Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15)

These 2 errors have mislead billions over the centuries, but has been corrected by Jesus' real teachers-Daniel 12:4)

 

[Katzpur]

All creatures both great and small are of the same kind as their fathers.

So would I be correct in saying that you believe you are "of the same kind" as your Father in Heaven?

 

[Sonofason]

A good day to you Sonofason,

Where as in the oldest writings---- John 1:1--In the beginning the Logos(word) was, and the Logos was with (ho) Theos, and the word was Theos.

The only word in greek for either-God-god--is Theos--For the true almighty God--(ho) Theos--for god=Theos.
The word was not being called--(ho) Theos--just Theos= small g god.---it carries the biblical meaning--has godlike qualities--because Gods power went through Jesus( Acts 2:22)--a very misleading error in trinity translations.
Another major error--worship to the Messiah. Obesiance goes to a king--The Messiah is Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15)

These 2 errors have mislead billions over the centuries, but has been corrected by Jesus' real teachers-Daniel 12:4)

Why not translate the entire sentence?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

You should note that in the verse we are discussing, which of course was written in Greek, the Greek article "ὁ" (ho) is not once used before the noun "Θεὸς" (Theos) as you suggest, but is used only before the noun "Λόγος" (Logos). So what in the world are you talking about?

Oh, and a good day to you as well, thanks.

 

[Sonofason]

So would I be correct in saying that you believe you are "of the same kind" as your Father in Heaven?

No, I am not begotten of God. I am a decedent of a creation of God, capable of being adopted into God's Family.

 

[Katzpur]

No, I am not begotten of God. I am a decedent of a creation of God, capable of being adopted into God's Family.

Actually, the Bible does say that we are all His "offspring." That makes us more closely related to Him than are any of His other creations. If all creatures are of the same kind as their fathers, why should we be any different?

 

[kjw47]

Why not translate the entire sentence?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

You should note that in the verse we are discussing, which of course was written in Greek, the Greek article "ὁ" (ho) is not once used before the noun "Θεὸς" (Theos) as you suggest, but is used only before the noun "Λόγος" (Logos). So what in the world are you talking about?

Oh, and a good day to you as well, thanks.

I have seen it translated many times--en ho Theos== the true almighty God---Plain Theos = god.

 

[Sonofason]

I have seen it translated many times--en ho Theos== the true almighty God---Plain Theos = god.

Well, not in any of these translations:
Nestle GNT 1904
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
Westcott and Hort 1881
ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Tischendorf 8th Edition
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

Oh sorry, these aren't translations. These are exactly what was written, that's why they all read exactly the same. Thus I must conclude that you need to get yourself a different translation.

 

[Sonofason]

Actually, the Bible does say that we are all His "offspring." That makes us more closely related to Him than are any of His other creations. If all creatures are of the same kind as their fathers, why should we be any different?

I don't believe it says that at all. I believe it suggest that if we should think of ourselves as God's offspring, we ought not think that the Godhead is like unto gold, silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Please read carefully.

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."
(Acts 17:28-29)

Forasmuch - In consideration that - we are the offspring of God - If we consider ourselves to be the offspring of God - If we consider ourselves God's children, we ought not think that He is like unto gold or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Now, where does God say we are literally offspring of God?

 

[Katzpur]

Now, where does God say we are literally offspring of God?

Well, you quoted Acts 17:28-29 yourself. I don't believe it says anything about thinking of ourselves as the offspring of God. It says, "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God..." In addition, Hebrews 12:9 refers to God as the "father of our spirits." We are not physically begotten of Him, as He has only one begotten Son. We are physically begotten of our own mortal parents. He is, however, our Father in Heaven, and we are created in His image. I believe we are the same "kind" of being He is.

 

[Sonofason]

Well, you quoted Acts 17:28-29 yourself. I don't believe it says anything about thinking of ourselves as the offspring of God. It says, "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God..." In addition, Hebrews 12:9 refers to God as the "father of our spirits." We are not physically begotten of Him, as He has only one begotten Son. We are physically begotten of our own mortal parents. He is, however, our Father in Heaven, and we are created in His image. I believe we are the same "kind" of being He is.

Please provide all definitions for the word "Forasmuch"
It was a poet who said that we are the offspring of God, not God, not an apostle, an unnamed poet who said it.