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Jesus or Christ Myth Theory

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Define "contemporary" (preferably in a way relevant to historical studies, but as you haven't demonstrated any indication that you have such an ability, I'd be happy with a non-technical definition).
contemporary

kənˈtɛmp(ə)r(ər)i/

adjective

1.

living or occurring at the same time.

"the event was recorded by a contemporary historian"

2.

belonging to or occurring in the present.

"the tension and complexities of our contemporary society"

synonyms:modern,*present-day,*present,*current,*present-time,*immediate,*extant;*More

noun

1.

a person or thing living or existing at the same time as another.

"he was a contemporary of Darwin"

synonyms:peer,*fellow;*More

As you can see, neither Paul nor Josephus qualify - because we do not have any documents by either of them from the time ofJesus' life.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Smoke and mirrors. with NO answer.
I gave direct answers, sources, references, citations, and more. I received insults and nothing better. So I went with the most simple response possible: simple answer. I identified contemporaneous sources. If you wish to debate whether they are, I've provided a source I wrote, I've quoted my posts from this forum on this matter I wrote prior, and I'll substantiate my position again if needed. However, this is pointless when any references I use are written off, basic formal reasoning is ignored, the standards by which all academics adhere to are thrown out, and those who are unfamiliar with even the translations of primary and secondary sources write off real research as if this amounted to anything, I'm not interested. I quit this forum because of the minority of members who refused to discuss on a discussion forum.

You wish to debate formal rules of debate, which is fair.

No. I offered answers, I offered sources, I offered my own explanations (albeit written years ago) in detail. I got back nonsense supported by ignorance.

Declining to actually answer
I answered. I received no answers to my questions.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
contemporary

kənˈtɛmp(ə)r(ər)i/

adjective

1.

living or occurring at the same time.

"the event was recorded by a contemporary historian"

2.

belonging to or occurring in the present.

"the tension and complexities of our contemporary society"

synonyms:modern,*present-day,*present,*current,*present-time,*immediate,*extant;*More

noun

1.

a person or thing living or existing at the same time as another.

"he was a contemporary of Darwin"

synonyms:peer,*fellow;*More

As you can see, neither Paul nor Josephus qualify - because we do not have any documents by either of them from the time ofJesus' life.

Paul lived while Jesus did, as did Josephus' sources. The author of Mark and whatever was behind Q again fits the definition of contemporary according to your quotation of my source.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
but is their testimony predicated of faith to ever be determined to be reliable or "true"?

Yes, or no?

It is a fair question.

That does not represent how historicity is determined.


The answer is yes though.

The NT has historical answers in it, and some aspects are factually true and reliable.


Not all though, and there is mythology, and fiction as well.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Contemporary in this case (and most others), for those familiar with modern historical studies, refers to when individuals lived. Victims of the holocaust, WWII vets, Vietnam vets, and so forth, are contemporaneous even if they write accounts several decades after the fact. It couldn't really matter less when texts from antiquity were written (particularly given that we have none of these). What matters is whether they author was in an adequate position (and I include spacetime coordinates here).
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Paul lived while Jesus did, as did Josephus' sources. The author of Mark and whatever was behind Q again fits the definition of contemporary according to your quotation of my source.

Paul never met Jesus, he recounts his experiences with a disembodied ghost - do you really count that as contemporary evidence?

If I find evidence of somebody dreaming about dragons in 1456, does that evidence the historicity of dragons? A: Of course not.

As to Josephus, he wrote long after Jesus death - it is not contemporary.
As to 'whatever is behind Q', when when you can find out who 'whatever' is, that would be a good start. When you can identify whatever was behind Q, you may have a case.

Now as to your accusations. I have not at any point made an appeal to my own authority, nor have I made unsusbtantiated claims - please provide quotations.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Contemporary in this case (and most others), for those familiar with modern historical studies, refers to when individuals lived. Victims of the holocaust, WWII vets, Vietnam vets, and so forth, are contemporaneous even if they write accounts several decades after the fact.

No. The author in that example would be contemporary with the Vietnam war, but the account written decades later is NOT. It was written decades later. A contemporary account is one that dates to the time of the events in question.
It couldn't really matter less when texts from antiquity were written (particularly given that we have none of these). What matters is whether they author was in an adequate position (and I include spacetime coordinates here).

Ok, so if what matters is whether the author was in an adequate position - then Paul and Josephus are still eliminated. The spacetime coordinates for Paul and Josephus do not connect to the living Jesus.

Paul never met Jesus, he is discussing dreams and visions - not actual encounters or experiences.
Josephus was a world away from the events and decades later, I believe he was a toddler when Jesus died.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Paul never met Jesus

Which doesn't matter as it doesn't define contemporaneous. What does matter, for reasons having to do with history, is Paul's knowledge of Jesus' brother and followers.

he recounts his experiences with a disembodied ghost
Despite using specific lexemes for "body" and "bodily flesh", as well as "human form", "ancestry", and other terms indicating you read some amateur bunk and rather do real research. Do you know Greek and/or Aramaic?

do you really count that as contemporary evidence?
Given your descriptions of our historical sources, you do. You are just to ignorant of the evidence to realize this.

If I find evidence of somebody dreaming about dragons in 1456, does that evidence the historicity of dragons?

Another wonderful indication that you are utterly incapable of using formal reasoning and completely unfamiliar with logic (by "another", I refer to your ridiculous analogy comparing evidence of absence/proving the negative to evidence). My grandfather was a WWII vet in the CIC. He never met most of those who lived in concentration camps, most soldiers in WWII, and most living involved in most of the entirety of the events of the war. That is true of my other grandfather as well. In fact, it's true of every individual contemporary with every other individual who participated or was otherwise involved in WWII. One soldier could have died in 1944, and another written in 1994, yet the two be contemporaneous.

This is called using the definition of words in order to make logical arguments, rather than mistaking logic and misusing words to regurgitate nonsense under the pretense of understanding.

I have not at any point made an appeal to my own authority

Well my field is history. Sapeins is correct.

Here you indicate that your authority is enough to support an obviously incorrect assertion about what historians require.

historians never make such silly claims - except when it comes to Jesus, for whom the evidence is pitiful in comparison to that for Ceaser.

Here is you making claims about what historians do based upon...your own authority. It's wrong, but it is an example.

LegionOnamomo

Before you give any more lectures about how history works, let me give you a friendly heads-up.

Historians catalogue and interpret the data, the historicity of Jesus (or any other character) is what is called an 'inference to the best explanation'', which is a guess, a tentative conclusion of what that particular researcher believes to be the most likely explanation.

This is called ABDUCTIVE REASONING, and it gives only a best guess, not an actual conclusion or proof.

When a person mistakes a guess drawn from abductive reasoning for an actual firm conclusion as you are doing - that is a fallacy called 'affirming the consequent'.

If anyone imagines that the historicity of Jesus has been established evidentially, or that historians agree that the historicity of Jesus is conclusively evidenced - then they are wrong, they are commiting the fallacy of affirming the consequent.

I've covered in depth both the ways in which you contradict yourself here and the ways in which your reliance on no authority (apart from wiki) amounts to nothing but inaccuracies and misrepresentations.

Many serious scholars have done so, you are wrong.

I know better than you every scholar who has weighed in on this issue in the last 300 years. I cited sources to back my assertion that you are wrong, and you regurgitated the same nonsense you have continued to rather than support your views.

How many times do I have to repeat the ways in which you make unsubstantiated claims that you back up with repetition and/or inaccuracies? Have you acknowledged that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to adbductive reasoning? No. Have I given real sources and quotes rather than just asked you to read online sources? Yes. Have you supplied the historians who use the criterion you assert historians do? No. Have you supplied anything other than your own authority for your claims about whether there are "many serious scholars" who doubt that Jesus was historical? No. Have you given any references, sources, or anything else other than your own authority and two wiki pages to support your claims? No.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's late, I've been drinking, and I'm just going to get more ******-off at ignorance and become more insulting and nasty. So I'm calling quits.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Sorry buddy, I edited out the ad homs and whining - but there was nothing left.

Are you seriously suggesting that Paul's experiences with Jesus post mortem somehow count as evidence for a historical Jesus contemporary with his life, even though Paul never at any time even intersected with the living Jesus?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
It's late, I've been drinking, and I'm just going to get more ******-off at ignorance and become more insulting and nasty. So I'm calling quits.

You've been drinking - well that explains everything. Maybe learn not to go to religious debate forums drunk.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Because he preached peace, non-violence, render unto Ceasar, etc. He was far less a threat than the JDL of the day.
But think about that statement for a moment, specifically the second half. "Give back to God that which belongs to God". What do you think "belongs to God"? And don't think about it from a modern perspective. Try to think about this from the perspective of a 1st century Jew living under Roman occupation. What could a 1st century Jew possibly have in mind that should be "given back to God"?

When you think about it, that statement that modern people think is so "peaceful", could have been enough to get someone crucified all by itself.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
It's late, I've been drinking, and I'm just going to get more ******-off at ignorance and become more insulting and nasty. So I'm calling quits.

I get it now.

Translation:
"I have nothing more to offer."

"I'll place my hands on my ears and shout so I can't hear you anymore."

LA LA LA!

I can't hear you. I win!

*yawn*
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'll admit that my undergrad paper isn't the best (it's my undergrad work, after all). Feel free address the work I've posted here or elsewhere (especially that paper), my peer-reviewed research and publications, or other source I've written. If you or others can't be bothered to read a few papers to understand historical Jesus studies, then what are you other than ignorant individuals doing what Christians do: selecting information to reinforce what you want to believe?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I'll admit that my undergrad paper isn't the best (it's my undergrad work, after all). Feel free address the work I've posted here or elsewhere (especially that paper), my peer-reviewed research and publications, or other source I've written. If you or others can't be bothered to read a few papers to understand historical Jesus studies, then what are you other than ignorant individuals doing what Christians do: selecting information to reinforce what you want to believe?

Most of the others here seem to have a better grasp of the topic here than you do mate. Come back when you are sober and you will most likely figure that out.

You are still yet to identify a shred of contemporary evidence for Jesus, you are also yet to identify specifically a single claim of mine you wish me to support.

Please mate, your posts are 95% insulting the scholarship of others and avoiding any direct exchange of ideas.
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
Do one of ya'll want to have a 1 on 1 debate on the historical Jesus with me??? I badly want one of those Debate slayer icons, and I figure that's my first step to getting one.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Do one of ya'll want to have a 1 on 1 debate on the historical Jesus with me??? I badly want one of those Debate slayer icons, and I figure that's my first step to getting one.

Go for it.

I can do so without any insult, ad hominem or otherwise bad behaviour if you can do the same.

Start by specifying the question being debated please.
 
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nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
Go for it.

I can do so without any insult, ad hominem or otherwise bad behaviour if you can do the same.

Start by specifying the question being debated please.

Naw, I'm talking about the formal 1 vs. 1 debate section. And we are debating Jesus being a historical person vs. Jesus not being a historical person.

I'll send a PM to one of the Admins to set it up if your interested.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Naw, I'm talking about the formal 1 vs. 1 debate section. And we are debating Jesus being a historical person vs. Jesus not being a historical person.

I'll send a PM to one of the Admins to set it up if your interested.

That seems a problematic way to put it - whether or not Jesus was a historical person is not either proveable or disproveable, and obviously mathematical probabilities can not be calculated. It would be a debate about whose guess is superior - and hence pretty pointless.

But yes, set it up. We just need to consider the question more carefully,
 
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