Mary is the most important figure in Christianity

[Phil25]

Therefore, there are a lot of sinless people. For instance, a few days old children or embryos in the very first stages of cellular growth, if you think they are persons, as I presume.

Unless, you believe that blastocysts can disobey God, of course.

Ciao

- viole

Whats the point here? Mary was not a blastocyst or a few days old child. She had sinned

 

[John Martin]

Mary and Joseph inaugurated a new heaven and a new earth. They realized that every child is a child of God and every birth is to celebrated as Christmas. All human parents are foster parents to God's children. When we try appropriate them for ourselves then we commit sin. Mary and also Joseph were sinless because they realized that their child was God child. Before Mary and Joseph God asked Abraham to do the same. Abraham became a virgin Father. I like to share with you two parables which I wrote, The Sacrifice of Isaac and Virgin parents. They are part of my new book 'The Ganges and the Jordan Meet: Reincarnation and Resurrection.(Published by ISPCK,New Delhi, 2014) There parables were also published in the Bede Griffiths Sangha News letter, which is our own, so there is no problem of copy right. These parables reveal what real virginity is and what sin is.

THE SACRIFICE OF ISAAC
When Isaac was twelve years old, God appeared to Abraham and said: Abraham, Abraham.
Abraham said: Here I am Lord.
God said: since Isaac has become an adult, sacrifice him to me.
Abraham said: My Lord, if that is your will, I am ready and willing to do it. But forgive me if I ask you one question for your sake. You have promised me that my descendants will be like the stars of heaven and the sand of the sea. You have granted me only one Son, Isaac, through my wife Sarah and said that Isaac would be my heir and through Isaac my generations would continue and be blessed. Now if I sacrifice my only son, Isaac, how can you fulfill your promise? Will it not be going back on your promise?
God said to Abraham: Abraham, I have not asked you to sacrifice Isaac physically. I have asked you to sacrifice your inner Isaac which is your desire for continuity because with your desire for continuity you have killed Isaac psychologically and spiritually. Isaac has no life of his own but he is born just to be your continuity. He is born just to fulfill your physical and psychological desires and ambitions. You have become a burden to Isaac. Yes, it is true, that I have promised you that your descendants would be like the stars of the heaven and the sand of the sea. But I have not promised you that they would be just like your replicas, like your clones. I choose everyone for eternity and not for continuity. Each one is my unique manifestation and each one is born to manifest eternity and not continuity. Each one is born for unfolding life and not for becoming. To choose children just for one’s physical or psychological continuity is to kill them internally. Yes, your progeny will be like the stars of heaven and the sand of the sea but each star will be unique and each grain of sand will be unique. For this you need to sacrifice your inner Isaac, which is your desire for continuity. If you do that then you live for eternity and choose Isaac for eternity and all the generations that come in the future will be blessed in you and consider you their father, Abraham, as you have chosen them for eternity and have given them real life.
Abraham rose early in the morning, took Isaac with him and walked to the mountain of the Lord. After reaching the top of the mountain, Abraham made Isaac to sit on a little higher place and began to wash his feet. Isaac was surprised and said: Father, what are you doing? It is never heard of in our land that a father washes the feet of his child. It is I who need to wash your feet and not you mine. I cannot allow this.
Abraham replied: My son, this is the will of God and I need to fulfill it. This washing of your feet is only symbolic of my sacrifice of you to God. Then Isaac allowed his father to wash his feet. As Abraham poured water on the feet of his son, Isaac, he said: my son, you are a unique manifestation of God and you have to live that uniqueness according to the will of God. You are manifested for God, for eternity, not for the continuity of past. Your vocation is to unfold life and not to imitate anyone. I sacrifice all my ambitions I have for you so that you may have life of your own. I chose you for God, for eternity and not for my continuity. My duty, as your physical father, is to help you to discover your uniqueness, your unique call from God. I promise that I will do what God expects of me for you’.
After this Abraham and Isaac returned home.
VIRGIN PARENTS
Once when Anna was pregnant and when Anna and her husband John were praying, the Angle Gabriel stood in front of them and said, Hail Anna and John, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Anna and John were in awe to hear this strange greeting and to see a form that was almost invisible. John asked: who are you Lord and what this greeting mean? The angle replied: I am Archangel Gabriel and I serve in the presence of God. I come to you with a message from God. John asked: Lord, what is that message? The Angel replied: God wants you to be virgin parents and to be an example to the future mankind. Anna replied: Lord what does it mean to be virgin parents? We are married and I am now sixth month pregnant also. How can we be virgin parents? The Angle replied: Anna and John, you become virgin parents by realizing that your children are not your children but God’s children came through you. You become virgin parents when you renounce your personal ambitions for your children and chose them for God, for eternity. You become virgin parents when you affirm that your children are unique manifestation of God and are not meant to be used for others for continuity. You become virgin parents when you serve children as foster parents to God’s children.
Unfortunately and ignorantly parents imagine that children are their children. They nourish personal ambitions for their children and chose them for their continuity and thus take away their uniqueness. God wants you to affirm this truth and be an example of this truth to the whole of humanity, as Mary and Joseph did before.
Anna and John replied: we are the servants of the Lord, let God’s will be done in us. Then the angle left them. After three months Anna gave birth to twins: a girl and a boy. When all their relatives and friends gathered around them and asked them: what names will you give to your children? Anna and John declared: these children are not our children but God’s children. We are only foster parents to God’s children. These children will be called, ‘the Daughter of God’ and ‘the Son of God’. Everyone present there were amazed with these words and glorified God.

 

[viole]

Christ's DNA was 100 % Mary's DNA.

So, Jesus was a female, correct?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Shiranui117]

Is there a Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Church?

Yes, but not an autocephalous one. We're an autonomous church within the Ecumenical Patriarchate. In the US and Canada, Archbishop Demetrios of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is kind of like a go-between for Patriarch Bartholomew and us. and Archbishop Demetrios also served as our locum tenens after our own Metropolitan Nicholas reposed in the Lord, before we elected Bishop Gregory.

The American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox were originally Byzantine Catholics who renounced the union with Rome and became Orthodox, owing to harsh and unfair treatments on the part of the Latin bishops who ruled us back during the early 20th century, before the Byzantine Catholics in this country had bishops of their own. So we split off in the 30's and were received by the Ecumenical Patriarchate as an autonomous church, and today we number at 70,000 Orthodox Christians, and are among the most active of any Orthodox jurisdiction in the US in terms of missionary efforts and using English in our services.

 

[outhouse]

Mary and Joseph inaugurated a new heaven and a new earth. .

That is wonderful theology and mythology.


New earth? what kind of fiction is that?



Have anything historical to add?

 

[Quiddity]

Yes, even the slight disobedience of God's law is a sin, no matter how small it is. Heck even saying I am sinless, is a sin as this is a title only for God.

I'd be curious to know where in Eastern Orthodox doctrine you can find this? Or in the Church Fathers for that matter.

 

[outhouse]

I'd be curious to know where in Eastern Orthodox doctrine you can find this? Or in the Church Fathers for that matter.

Might have him define exactly what gods law is to.

 

[Quiddity]

Might have him define exactly what gods law is to.

I'm good. Not really a conversation for those that are handicapped from believing anyhow. Metaphysical Naturalism fits you better.

 

[John Martin]

That is wonderful theology and mythology.


New earth? what kind of fiction is that?



Have anything historical to add?

When human parents realize that their children are not their children but God's children they become virgin parents. In this sense every birth becomes a virgin birth and every child, a child of God,or incarnation of God. When a new leaf emerges between two old leaves, the two old leaves should not claim that the new leaf belongs to them. The new leaf belongs to the whole tree. The physical parents are only two leaves on the tree. The new leaves belongs to the Tree, symbol of God. This is the truth and Mary and Joseph inaugurated this truth. It is to this truth humanity is heading. When every one sees this truth then the new heaven and the new earth which began 2000 years ago will reach its fulfillment.

 

[Shiranui117]

I'd be curious to know where in Eastern Orthodox doctrine you can find this? Or in the Church Fathers for that matter.

Well, he's Oriental Orthodox, not Eastern for starters.

Second, are you denying that even a slight disobedience of God's law constitutes sin? Or are you challenging the idea that declaring oneself to be free from sin (which Mary never did, by the way) constitutes a sin?

 

[Quiddity]

Well, he's Oriental Orthodox, not Eastern for starters.

Second, are you denying that even a slight disobedience of God's law constitutes sin? Or are you challenging the idea that declaring oneself to be free from sin (which Mary never did, by the way) constitutes a sin?

I'm challenging the idea that one can't be sinless in this world. How exactly does that violate Christian (I speak of respective faiths only because we share much in common) doctrine?

 

[outhouse]

When human parents realize that their children are not their children but God's children they become virgin parents..

Is this true for Augustus who first was called the "son of god" before the authors used that with jesus ????????

You know the same Emperor concept the authors were cometing jesus divinity against.

You know, the same exact culture who called the Emperor the "son of god" and then called Jesus the "son of god".

 

[Quiddity]

Well, he's Oriental Orthodox, not Eastern for starters.

Second, are you denying that even a slight disobedience of God's law constitutes sin? Or are you challenging the idea that declaring oneself to be free from sin (which Mary never did, by the way) constitutes a sin?

Also, given that we both follow Tradition; it matters little if she said it or not if the early fathers believed it as the deposit of faith; then it is so. Neither of us are protestant here.

 

[Pegg]

We Catholics are often accused of worshiping Mary as a divinity.
Mary was not a divinity: she was the daughter of two normal people. So she was human. But she is the protagonist of Christianity because it was her who erased sin from human nature, that is, in her heart.
She "challenged" God because she wanted to show him that a human being can be sinless and pure. And she was sinless and pure.

But not because God had made her sinless (impossible, there is the free will)
She, with her free will decided to be sinless. Because she conceived sin as incompatible with human nature. That's how she was able to incarnate God. (Immaculate conception)

Because God and her became one only thing.

This woman saw Mary when she was seven and she told her all these things
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoAqP4sNbwE

Its a worthy endeavour to aim for sinlessness. But the bible does not say anywhere that Mary was sinless.

Rather, it relates an account about Mary herself going to the temple to offer her sin sacrifice which was in accordance with the law:

Leviticus 12:2  “Tell the Israelites, ‘If a woman becomes pregnant and gives birth to a male, she will be unclean for seven days, ...6 When the days of her purification for a son or a daughter are completed, she will bring a young ram in its first year for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering to the entrance of the tent of meeting, to the priest. 7 He will present it before Jehovah and make atonement for her, and she will be clean from her flow of blood. This is the law about the woman who gives birth to either a male or a female. 8 But if she cannot afford a sheep, she must then take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and one for a sin offering, and the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

The account recorded in the gospels shows that Mary went to the priest to offer her turtledoves as a sin offerering:

Luke 2:21 After eight days, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived.
22 Also, when the time came for purifying them according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to Jehovah, 23 just as it is written in Jehovah’s Law: “Every firstborn male must be called holy to Jehovah.” 24 And they offered a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of Jehovah: “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”


If Mary thought she was sinless, she would not have been required to make such an offering.

 

[outhouse]

I'm good. Not really a conversation for those that are handicapped from believing anyhow.

It is not a handicap in any way. It gives me a clearer view of what really happend without the blinders that bias creates.

But I understand your point.

Metaphysical Naturalism fits you better.

I prefer scientific materialism thank you.

 

[Quiddity]

I prefer scientific materialism thank you.

That is an amalgamation of a term not generally used as such. Any how....

 

[John Martin]

Is this true for Augustus who first was called the "son of god" before the authors used that with jesus ????????

You know the same Emperor concept the authors were cometing jesus divinity against.

You know, the same exact culture who called the Emperor the "son of god" and then called Jesus the "son of god".

The difference is that the Emperor made people who worship him where as Christ,the Son of God,washed the feet of his disciples. Unfortunately Christians have made him into another emperor; which Jesus would never approve.

 

[outhouse]

The difference is that the Emperor made people who worship him where as Christ,the Son of God,washed the feet of his disciples.

Said to have washed the feet of his disciples, which I find 12 mythical. I believe he only had his inner circle, and that would be why the gospels mention them the most.

Also the authors who wrote this were far removed from his actual life and events.

Unfortunately Christians have made him into another emperor; which Jesus would never approve.

I dont think he would approve of the large churches or church politics either. It evolved far from his real teachings.

 

[outhouse]

That is an amalgamation of a term not generally used as such. Any how....

Wiki states a little different but OK.

Metaphysical naturalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Metaphysical naturalism, also called ontological naturalism, philosophical naturalism and scientific materialism is a strong belief in naturalism, a worldview with a philosophical aspect which holds that there is nothing but natural elements, principles, and relations of the kind studied by the natural sciences, i.e., those required to understand our physical environment by mathematical modelling

 

[Quiddity]

Wiki states a little different but OK.

Metaphysical naturalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Metaphysical naturalism, also called ontological naturalism, philosophical naturalism and scientific materialism is a strong belief in naturalism, a worldview with a philosophical aspect which holds that there is nothing but natural elements, principles, and relations of the kind studied by the natural sciences, i.e., those required to understand our physical environment by mathematical modelling

Isn't that what I said originally? Metaphysical Naturalism? :areyoucra

I'm not used to hearing it as scientific materialism.