astral projection is biblical

[Shiranui117]

Um, let me put it like this: opposites as in you have one set of skills that I don’t have and I have a set of skills you don’t have, therefore we attract, because we complement each other. However, that is different than the soul being in the same state as another. Example would be, both souls are depressed, but they have opposite skills. Two kindred souls who either have opposite skills or not, will attract because of the kindred spirit.

I see your point, I was just being a little pedantic Though I hope you understood mine as well; good people can find themselves wandering in bad places.

Right, black magic is a no no, and gauss what, I also recently listened to a youtube testimony of such a case. Where this guy was into black magic, and he would astral project, and put curses on people, including Christians, and he noticed the none Christians the curses would work and the Christians the curses would not work. And that was a stepping stone in him coming to Christ. However, putting curses on people is obviously wrong. But this is like an example of God using the devils own fire against him.

Glad we agree on that.

Even Paul who I’m sure you would agree had ecstasy when caught up to paradise said whether in or out of the body he did not know.

Yes, this is because ecstasy is on a completely different level. Our physical senses, the senses that we're used to, aren't in play; what we perceive in ecstasy is on some other level. So you wouldn't be able to even detect your body; you would see no silver cord connecting you to your body, because all your perception is taken up by the heavenly things that you see. This is why the writings of the prophets about their visions are so darn hard to interpret, because the prophets have to put what they experienced into language and expressions that we would be able to understand with our senses.

It could be perceived as being dead or in a coma. I was listening to a near death experience from a scientist on youtube, they said that when they looked back, they saw the earth and a “ribbon cord” which is what we call the silver cord and the bible calls it that too. But this scientist called it a ribbon like cord. They were describing the same thing. Now they were “near death” or in a coma, yet they still had the cord connection. It’s only when one is FULLY and COMPLETELY and not returning, DEAD is when that cord is severed. So, some form of energy or soul is still in the body, otherwise that ribbon cord would not still be connected there.

Yes, I agree, but there is many ways God can reveal or that we can see our sins.

Agreed very hard.

Well, I gauss what I want is to see him to a greater extent. I don’t just want his presence invisibly near me, I want to see him in his full glory. Why would he prevent that? Or why would he not want that? Cause some need more healing? Ok, but why not just satisfy the hunger of the other who don’t need healing, the hunger of wanting to see God in his full glory?

Yea, but need and desire are two different things. Why wouldn’t God satisfy this innocent desire? It’s not like it’s an EVIL desire, it’s a good desire.

Because even if our desires are good, they may not be in accordance with God's plan. For example, I might want to become a celibate priest or monk, which is perfectly good and admirable, but God has marriage in the cards for me instead, and sends me the woman who would later be my wife and the mother of my children. So I don't end up with the good thing that I wanted (celibacy), but with the good thing that God wanted for me (marriage and family life).

What if they hear the preacher or research Christianity and it does not strike their senses, how then do they get faith to get planted in them?

If their curiosity isn't piqued by hearing of the Gospel, then the holy life and witness of Christians will; when you see someone who is so happy and so virtuous, you begin to respect them and ask them what their secret is. And then they can begin to say, "I'm a Christian." And then the inquirer will begin to ask why they're a Christian and what they believe... So the seeds are planted through the lives and witness of Christians, not just the words of preachers. And of course there's the possibility of the person themselves having some vision of angels, falling into great trials and calling out to God or anyone through sheer desperation, then having their prayers answered and the Truth announced to them by an angel, a Saint, the Father, the Spirit, or Christ.

I look at the story of babel as a story of motives. They had wrong motives for building a tower to heaven. If you try to reach heaven to war and take it over and raise your thrown above God, that’s not good. But if your trying to reach heaven to enter into the greatest level of glory and worship and see the fullness of God, what’s wrong with that motive?

The people did build the Tower of Babel to reach Heaven, yes, but they wanted to reach Heaven by themselves, without God's help--they wanted to become equal with Him without Him.

You misunderstand. Few points on why you’re misunderstanding. He makes it clear from his book in the beginning of it, that he is combating this phenomena from a materialistic approach. Secondly, just because he himself interprets an encounter with God as it MAY be a simulation in the mind or may be God, but then he leaves it up to the experiencer what is being encountered. The third reason you misunderstand is because of the nature of travel. The way one travels in the spirit realm is by thinking it. If you want to move over to that house, think it. If you want to go to china, think it. If you want to go to heaven, think it. You navigate by thinking, not by how you navigate in the physical plane. In the physical plain, you navigate without thinking. It’s different.

So, imagine seeing God, bang, you will see him, but once you do, you decide if it’s really him, or if it’s a simulation, you understand? That’s what he’s trying to say here.

Alright, I can dig that. I would personally consider it a simulation or something more sinister myself, unless God took us into His presence.

The question is, do you believe he went to heavens paradise or no? If no, why?

Because yes, it was a beautiful place, and almost everything in it would be expected of a heavenly vision, but depending on what he meant by "obscene" when the men started singing, it could not possibly have been Heaven, because there is nothing obscene or sinful in Heaven.

You also assume that if someone goes to heaven, they will be shaken for months, that’s not true though, when Paul went to paradise he does not say one way or another that he was shaken for months. Also other testimonies of people who had near death experiences or spontaneous experiences of heaven, they were not shaken for months. I listened to Jesse duplantises (TV preacher) experience of seeing heaven, he felt joy and “ecstasy” but he was not shaken for months, yes, he was changed for a lifetime.

Perhaps I should describe what I mean by "shaken." When I say "shaken," I mean that whenever the mind wanders over to the experience, you are just left sitting there, stunned, and only being able to go "Whoa. I cannot believe I experienced that... Mind=blown."

 

[Jollybear]

Yes, this is because ecstasy is on a completely different level. Our physical senses, the senses that we're used to, aren't in play; what we perceive in ecstasy is on some other level. So you wouldn't be able to even detect your body; you would see no silver cord connecting you to your body, because all your perception is taken up by the heavenly things that you see. This is why the writings of the prophets about their visions are so darn hard to interpret, because the prophets have to put what they experienced into language and expressions that we would be able to understand with our senses.

Well, true there are no physical senses, but wouldn’t you concede there is spiritual senses? Spiritual sight for instance?

Because even if our desires are good, they may not be in accordance with God's plan. For example, I might want to become a celibate priest or monk, which is perfectly good and admirable, but God has marriage in the cards for me instead, and sends me the woman who would later be my wife and the mother of my children. So I don't end up with the good thing that I wanted (celibacy), but with the good thing that God wanted for me (marriage and family life).

I see what you’re saying, BUT it appears that from scripture, God lets the person choose their own “cards” if yea will. Using your same example, here is a passage in 1 Corinthians 7:25-28 Paul is basically saying whatever decision you make, you’re free to do so. He is just offering his view on it though, but then clarifies that they are free to do whatever.

So, putting it with astral travel, if the desire is there, and the motive good, why is there still no freedom to do so?

If their curiosity isn't piqued by hearing of the Gospel, then the holy life and witness of Christians will; when you see someone who is so happy and so virtuous, you begin to respect them and ask them what their secret is. And then they can begin to say, "I'm a Christian." And then the inquirer will begin to ask why they're a Christian and what they believe... So the seeds are planted through the lives and witness of Christians, not just the words of preachers. And of course there's the possibility of the person themselves having some vision of angels, falling into great trials and calling out to God or anyone through sheer desperation, then having their prayers answered and the Truth announced to them by an angel, a Saint, the Father, the Spirit, or Christ.

What if you look sad and angry all the time and someone asks you “why do you look so sad and angry all the time?” and you say “because I am a Christian and I am ****** at all the evil and sin and unrighteousness in the world, I am grieved at the phoniness and lies and hypocrisy in this world”. Won’t that get them the same respect? Or would that make the person avoid the Christian all the more because they feel pricked about their own evils? lol

The people did build the Tower of Babel to reach Heaven, yes, but they wanted to reach Heaven by themselves, without God's help--they wanted to become equal with Him without Him.

Right, so there motive was wrong, but if your motive is to reach heaven to experience God on that level, what’s wrong with that?

Alright, I can dig that. I would personally consider it a simulation or something more sinister myself, unless God took us into His presence.

So you think unless God directly pulls us into his presence, then it’s not him? We can’t bring ourselves into his presence? Why can’t we? A king can summon a subject into his court, but the subject can also walk into the kings court without summon too.

If the laws of motion and navigation in the spirit world are by thinking of someone or a location and bang your there, how can it be a simulation?

The laws of navigation in the physical realm are bound by time and space and will. You will yourself to walk over to the mail box and then it takes time and a certain amount of space to get there by the act of your will. But in the spirit world, the laws are different. You think of a place, bang, and your there. There’s no time in getting there, and there’s no space in order to pass through to get there, bang, your just there. Time and space are bypassed.

Because yes, it was a beautiful place, and almost everything in it would be expected of a heavenly vision, but depending on what he meant by "obscene" when the men started singing, it could not possibly have been Heaven, because there is nothing obscene or sinful in Heaven.

Now that is an interesting point you bring up about the obscene singing. And unfortunately he did not mention the details of that. But your right, I agree, there is no sinful things going on in heaven.

However, LUCKY for me, I found ANOTHER astral projector who experienced heaven AND I can source it! This person describes a feeling of “ecstasy” and love. The person sees beings of light, emanating overwhelming love and acceptance. When the person returns to their body, they are changed, they are no longer atheist. They have an intense hunger for more spiritual experience.

So, my question is, would the devil, or a simulation, give love, ecstasy and change a person from being an atheist and create a spiritual hunger in them?

This was done by astral projection, because they did it through “meditation”.

Source here http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers08.html

So….your thoughts?

Perhaps I should describe what I mean by "shaken." When I say "shaken," I mean that whenever the mind wanders over to the experience, you are just left sitting there, stunned, and only being able to go "Whoa. I cannot believe I experienced that... Mind=blown."

And this also is what happened to the person above.

 

[Shiranui117]

Well, true there are no physical senses, but wouldn’t you concede there is spiritual senses? Spiritual sight for instance?

Yes, but the exact nature of these can be hard to pin down for those of us who directly experience our physical senses almost exclusively, and have not had ecstasy. You say spiritual sight, and automatically "discernment," "wisdom" and "humility" pop into my head, for instance.

I see what you’re saying, BUT it appears that from scripture, God lets the person choose their own “cards” if yea will. Using your same example, here is a passage in 1 Corinthians 7:25-28 Paul is basically saying whatever decision you make, you’re free to do so. He is just offering his view on it though, but then clarifies that they are free to do whatever.

Reading in context, it seems to me that we're not to seek to change our social standing, but to be content with the life and the situation that God has put us in. Yet this life situation also cannot be what defines us--rather, it should be the fact that we are Christians which defines us.

Only let each person lead the life[c] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. 21 Were you a bondservant[d] when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) 22 For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants[e] of men. 24 So, brothers,[f] in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God. 25 Now concerning[g] the betrothed,[h] I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 26 I think that in view of the present[i] distress it is good for a person to remain as he is. 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman[j] marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. 29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, 30 and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, 31 and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

Now of course, I think there's an exception for those of us who haven't yet gotten ourselves in a position, like all of us in our early 20's and still in school

So, putting it with astral travel, if the desire is there, and the motive good, why is there still no freedom to do so?

It's like wishing for the ability to cure cancer worldwide with a single wave of your hand. The desire is there, the motive is good, yet we don't have the ability.

What if you look sad and angry all the time and someone asks you “why do you look so sad and angry all the time?” and you say “because I am a Christian and I am ****** at all the evil and sin and unrighteousness in the world, I am grieved at the phoniness and lies and hypocrisy in this world”. Won’t that get them the same respect? Or would that make the person avoid the Christian all the more because they feel pricked about their own evils? lol

Ehh, there is mourning over the sins of the world, yet we're especially called to mourn our own sins rather than to risk judging others. In Orthodoxy, we have a concept called "joyful mourning", where we mourn over our sins and the sins of the world, yet we are simultaneously joyful that Christ offers salvation and redemption to all, and that we can all instantly repent and have a relationship with Him, have the Holy Spirit inside of us and be children of the Father.

So the tactic that you describe might actually put people off--it may make you seem "holier than thou" and judgemental. We should acknowledge the evil in the world and in our own hearts, but instead of dwelling on that, we should dwell on Him Who came to redeem and transform the world. We should say, "I am lamenting over my own sins and all the evil surrounding me, but I have hope in that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ has come to redeem us all and heal the brokenness, both in my own soul and in the world around me--and He is ever ready to give healing, refreshment, joy and peace to those who come to Him."

Right, so there motive was wrong, but if your motive is to reach heaven to experience God on that level, what’s wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with the motive, of course.

So you think unless God directly pulls us into his presence, then it’s not him? We can’t bring ourselves into his presence? Why can’t we? A king can summon a subject into his court, but the subject can also walk into the kings court without summon too.

A subject walking into the king's court uninvited and without reason can be very unwelcome and be viewed as highly disrespectful or even threatening, and can be punishable by physical punishment, exile or even death...

If the laws of motion and navigation in the spirit world are by thinking of someone or a location and bang your there, how can it be a simulation?

This is assuming that the astral plane and Heaven are the same world.

However, LUCKY for me, I found ANOTHER astral projector who experienced heaven AND I can source it! This person describes a feeling of “ecstasy” and love. The person sees beings of light, emanating overwhelming love and acceptance. When the person returns to their body, they are changed, they are no longer atheist. They have an intense hunger for more spiritual experience.

So, my question is, would the devil, or a simulation, give love, ecstasy and change a person from being an atheist and create a spiritual hunger in them?

This was done by astral projection, because they did it through “meditation”.

Source here http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers08.html

So….your thoughts?

And this also is what happened to the person above.

Thanks--that was an interesting read! And glory to God that she's now curious about Him. This seems to me to be a case where someone was meditating and then was taken by God--notice that she suddenly was taken to space. She did not will herself to see God or the angels--they appeared to her and gave her the opportunity to come closer.

 

[Jollybear]

Yes, but the exact nature of these can be hard to pin down for those of us who directly experience our physical senses almost exclusively, and have not had ecstasy. You say spiritual sight, and automatically "discernment," "wisdom" and "humility" pop into my head, for instance.

Hey, shiranui, sorry I been away for a bit. I have been doing some things. Have second job, and having research a few other things, but I am back. Ok, let me redefine what I mean by spiritual sight, I used a sloppy choice of words there. What I really meant was astral sight. Remember what I talked about before, about astral matter, well it’s the same principle here, astral sight. So I am not meaning spiritual sight, as in discernment, wisdom or humility. Not that kind of sight, and not physical sight, but astral sight. Sight that one uses when in the spirit world. So, going back to my question, do you concede there is astral sight?

Reading in context, it seems to me that we're not to seek to change our social standing, but to be content with the life and the situation that God has put us in. Yet this life situation also cannot be what defines us--rather, it should be the fact that we are Christians which defines us.

Only let each person lead the life[c] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. 21 Were you a bondservant[d] when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) 22 For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants[e] of men. 24 So, brothers,[f] in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God. 25 Now concerning[g] the betrothed,[h] I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 26 I think that in view of the present[i] distress it is good for a person to remain as he is. 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman[j] marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. 29 This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, 30 and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, 31 and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.


Now of course, I think there's an exception for those of us who haven't yet gotten ourselves in a position, like all of us in our early 20's and still in school

Now notice the phrase in the quote that says “avail yourself of the opportunity” and the phrase “it is good for a person to remain as he is.” Now skip few lines “are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you do marry, you have not sinned”. These phrases Paul speaks here clearly show that Paul is saying that whatever you do in these situations, you have not sinned EITHER way. He is just giving his view on what he thinks they SHOULD do, based on wanting to spare them potential problems.


So in other words, if ones motives are right and if they keep God in mind, then astral projection, if they so choose to do it, is not a sin. That’s the principle I hear in this passage. Now if you say this passage does not apply because it’s not talking of astral projection, but rather slaves and marriages and circumcision, I would then quote to you the phrase “only let each person lead the LIFE(this is very broad in scope, it does not just refer to circumcision, marriage or slaves) that the Lord has assigned to him”

It's like wishing for the ability to cure cancer worldwide with a single wave of your hand. The desire is there, the motive is good, yet we don't have the ability.

Your right we don’t have the ability to wave our hand and cure cancer worldwide, but your comparing this with astral projection ability, which is not the same, with astral projection, we DO have the ability. There is many different techniques to pull astral projection off. Meditation is one of the techniques, lucid dreams, staying awake all night, taking short nap, fasting or taking some natural supplements. What seems to be the case though, is that this ability is hard to “control”. Some people have more mastery of the control then others. There are different levels of control, based off of peoples varying talent or gift and discipline. But the ability is definitely there, no question about it.

 

[Jollybear]

Ehh, there is mourning over the sins of the world, yet we're especially called to mourn our own sins rather than to risk judging others. In Orthodoxy, we have a concept called "joyful mourning", where we mourn over our sins and the sins of the world, yet we are simultaneously joyful that Christ offers salvation and redemption to all, and that we can all instantly repent and have a relationship with Him, have the Holy Spirit inside of us and be children of the Father.

So the tactic that you describe might actually put people off--it may make you seem "holier than thou" and judgemental. We should acknowledge the evil in the world and in our own hearts, but instead of dwelling on that, we should dwell on Him Who came to redeem and transform the world. We should say, "I am lamenting over my own sins and all the evil surrounding me, but I have hope in that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ has come to redeem us all and heal the brokenness, both in my own soul and in the world around me--and He is ever ready to give healing, refreshment, joy and peace to those who come to Him."

I agree, we should not judge others if we are committing the same sin, that is a turn off to anyone. However, if we judge in areas that we are not sinning, then that I think is warranted, because otherwise, how could we tell the world to “repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand”?



For instance, few days ago at my work, I laid the blower on a register outside in the garden area at home depot. Two registers were open. The one I laid the blower on had no costumers on it. And the cashier was not at the register. So I laid the blower on it for a minute in order to check the gas. She comes in from around the corner and says to me “get that peace of crap off there before I punch you in the eye”. I responded as “hey, be nice” and she says “I don’t want to be nice”. Anyways, I got to thinking after words. What she did was not just mean, it was hypocritical in nature, here is how: she undoubtedly does not want to be treated meanly or disrespectfully, that is not ok, but it is ok if she is mean or disrespectful herself, thus it’s hypocritical. By me telling her to be nice, that is a judgment on my part. However, it is a warranted judgment because I don’t treat people meanly like that, even if I am having a bad day, I deal with my problems head on instead of taking them out on others. So, did she like me correcting her? No, because she said she does not want to be nice. But hey, Jesus corrected people; they did not like it either.

There's nothing wrong with the motive, of course.

So if there is nothing wrong with the motive of reaching heaven in astral projection, while keeping God in mind, and we do techniques to get that done, and it happens, what’s wrong with it?

A subject walking into the king's court uninvited and without reason can be very unwelcome and be viewed as highly disrespectful or even threatening, and can be punishable by physical punishment, exile or even death...

Right, but if the subject is the king’s wife, AND she comes with good reason, that is double ok, would it not be? How do we become the kings wife? By entering into the new covenant agreement with God through Christ and repentance and receiving the Kings mind or Spirit (Holy Spirit). What’s coming with good reason? The wife wants to spend time with the king, be as close to him as possible. That is the reason, to enter the full glory of God. To want to see his “astral form and beauty” would be great. Come now, what genuine believer would not want to be at the thrown itself, seeing the living creatures cry holy, holy, holy is the Lord almighty. I mean, just thinking of it now, makes me want to cry and shout for joy at the same time I want it that bad. This is being in the astral presence of the very source of the whole universe and receiving an audience with him. How intense I desire it.

This is assuming that the astral plane and Heaven are the same world.

I would think they are the same world, different locations in the astral or spirit world, like heaven is not hell, but both heaven and hell are in the astral or spirit world. Remember how I defined astral? It’s the objects you see in that world, that is astral matter, you see them with astral sight, and you navigate in that world through thought or imagination. So space and time are below you. Many near death experiences all testify that they travel outside time or space. Thus this is giving credence that it’s the same world. So I can’t see how it could be a simulation, of course there is spirits who shape shift, and that is where we must discern (spiritual sight, vs astral sight), for even Satan can appear as an angel of light. So, yes, the laws of motion are through thought and imagination and boom your there where you think, but yes, we must exercise spiritual sight (discernment) rather than just go by astral sight (what we see).

Thanks--that was an interesting read! And glory to God that she's now curious about Him. This seems to me to be a case where someone was meditating and then was taken by God--notice that she suddenly was taken to space. She did not will herself to see God or the angels--they appeared to her and gave her the opportunity to come closer.

I am terribly frustrated with myself, I have been reading hundreds of testimonies of near death experiences on this website http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm and I came across two which were not near death experiences, but were in fact induced by meditation (I presume the people who still wrote it on this website, thought they had a near death experience, without realizing they did astral projection) but none the less, the content of the experience, be it near death or astral travel, is similar and the same. But, I came across two more examples for you, but I forgot to save them, I have been reading backwards to find them, but I could not. I’m terribly frustrated because of that. But, no worries, you do have one that you have read, that is documented and that I got to you. Perhaps, I will still re find the other two I read later.

Now, it’s interesting that when I gave you proof that someone can have an out of body experience and see angels and heaven and ecstasy, you then claim it did not happen by the direct link of meditation, but rather God directly did it despite the meditation.

To this, I think you are very much incorrect. Because, as mentioned earlier, I had an experience where I meditated through a lucid dream, two times, and had an out of body experience, does this mean God directly did it? No, I did it, true, God allowed it, but never the less, I did it. Same with this person here, just they projected deeper.

Here is what I am seeing, if someone meditates and they project in the “real time zone” like in there room or fly over a city, you would call that projecting by the person themselves (even though you said we don’t have the ability). But if the person meditates and they project to heaven and see angels and have joy, then you would say, God did it, despite the meditation. You see the inconsistency in your point?

So, which is it, we can project through meditation, or we can’t?

 

[Shiranui117]

Hey, shiranui, sorry I been away for a bit. I have been doing some things. Have second job, and having research a few other things, but I am back.

Alright, it's cool.

Ok, let me redefine what I mean by spiritual sight, I used a sloppy choice of words there. What I really meant was astral sight. Remember what I talked about before, about astral matter, well it’s the same principle here, astral sight. So I am not meaning spiritual sight, as in discernment, wisdom or humility. Not that kind of sight, and not physical sight, but astral sight. Sight that one uses when in the spirit world. So, going back to my question, do you concede there is astral sight?

Ahh, so you mean the spiritual sight as in the spiritual senses. Yes, there is such a thing, but I don't claim to understand how it functions or what it is like.

Now notice the phrase in the quote that says “avail yourself of the opportunity” and the phrase “it is good for a person to remain as he is.” Now skip few lines “are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you do marry, you have not sinned”. These phrases Paul speaks here clearly show that Paul is saying that whatever you do in these situations, you have not sinned EITHER way. He is just giving his view on what he thinks they SHOULD do, based on wanting to spare them potential problems.

Yes. This is speaking of the walks of life and the vocations in which we find ourselves before and after we become Christian.

So in other words, if ones motives are right and if they keep God in mind, then astral projection, if they so choose to do it, is not a sin. That’s the principle I hear in this passage. Now if you say this passage does not apply because it’s not talking of astral projection, but rather slaves and marriages and circumcision, I would then quote to you the phrase “only let each person lead the LIFE(this is very broad in scope, it does not just refer to circumcision, marriage or slaves) that the Lord has assigned to him”

Ahh, I think I understand what you're saying here. You're saying that because we're not called to change our life circumstances when we come Christian, that it would be fine to continue practicing astral projection, yes?

I can see your train of thought here. But also keep in mind that there are some things we are called to repent of and change when we become Christian--such as sinful habits and lifestyles. Even leaving aside the topic of whether astral projection is sinful or not, let that be food for thought.

Your right we don’t have the ability to wave our hand and cure cancer worldwide, but your comparing this with astral projection ability, which is not the same, with astral projection, we DO have the ability. There is many different techniques to pull astral projection off. Meditation is one of the techniques, lucid dreams, staying awake all night, taking short nap, fasting or taking some natural supplements. What seems to be the case though, is that this ability is hard to “control”. Some people have more mastery of the control then others. There are different levels of control, based off of peoples varying talent or gift and discipline. But the ability is definitely there, no question about it.[/quote]
Astral projection is one thing, but ecstasy is another.

I agree, we should not judge others if we are committing the same sin, that is a turn off to anyone. However, if we judge in areas that we are not sinning, then that I think is warranted, because otherwise, how could we tell the world to “repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand”?

I think we need to make the distinction between judging and discerning. We can discern whether something is sinful and point it out as such, without judging it--judging is what God does. And even when we discern and call attention to the sinfulness of a certain part of our culture or way of living, we should not do so in an intemperate or uncontrolled or angry manner. Remember 1 Corinthians 13, if we say or do something as Christians without love, we are nothing.

For instance, few days ago at my work, I laid the blower on a register outside in the garden area at home depot. Two registers were open. The one I laid the blower on had no costumers on it. And the cashier was not at the register. So I laid the blower on it for a minute in order to check the gas. She comes in from around the corner and says to me “get that peace of crap off there before I punch you in the eye”. I responded as “hey, be nice” and she says “I don’t want to be nice”. Anyways, I got to thinking after words. What she did was not just mean, it was hypocritical in nature, here is how: she undoubtedly does not want to be treated meanly or disrespectfully, that is not ok, but it is ok if she is mean or disrespectful herself, thus it’s hypocritical. By me telling her to be nice, that is a judgment on my part. However, it is a warranted judgment because I don’t treat people meanly like that, even if I am having a bad day, I deal with my problems head on instead of taking them out on others. So, did she like me correcting her? No, because she said she does not want to be nice. But hey, Jesus corrected people; they did not like it either.

Your pointing out her fault/admonishing her to correct it was not judging, it was discerning her sin and pointing it out so she could see and hopefully repent of it. That is not judging, but reproving. To judge would be to say that she is going to Hell for her actions.

So if there is nothing wrong with the motive of reaching heaven in astral projection, while keeping God in mind, and we do techniques to get that done, and it happens, what’s wrong with it?

Even leaving aside whether it is right or wrong, it is impossible.

I am terribly frustrated with myself, I have been reading hundreds of testimonies of near death experiences on this website http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm and I came across two which were not near death experiences, but were in fact induced by meditation (I presume the people who still wrote it on this website, thought they had a near death experience, without realizing they did astral projection) but none the less, the content of the experience, be it near death or astral travel, is similar and the same. But, I came across two more examples for you, but I forgot to save them, I have been reading backwards to find them, but I could not. I’m terribly frustrated because of that. But, no worries, you do have one that you have read, that is documented and that I got to you. Perhaps, I will still re find the other two I read later.

Ahh, that's always annoying. Do let me know if you find them!

Now, it’s interesting that when I gave you proof that someone can have an out of body experience and see angels and heaven and ecstasy, you then claim it did not happen by the direct link of meditation, but rather God directly did it despite the meditation.

To this, I think you are very much incorrect. Because, as mentioned earlier, I had an experience where I meditated through a lucid dream, two times, and had an out of body experience, does this mean God directly did it? No, I did it, true, God allowed it, but never the less, I did it. Same with this person here, just they projected deeper.

Here is what I am seeing, if someone meditates and they project in the “real time zone” like in there room or fly over a city, you would call that projecting by the person themselves (even though you said we don’t have the ability). But if the person meditates and they project to heaven and see angels and have joy, then you would say, God did it, despite the meditation. You see the inconsistency in your point?

So, which is it, we can project through meditation, or we can’t?

My point is, even if we can project through meditation, this does not mean that we can experience ecstasy on our own. Rather, ecstasy is by its very nature something granted to us by God, not something of our own doing.

I will use the earlier example of the woman who was taken to space and saw what was probably God and angels. The woman may have projected herself, but her encountering God or ending up in a position to encounter Him was not of her own making. She was taken by Him to meet Him after she had projected. This is consistent with every instance of the Bible where God appears to man; whether the person in question intends to or not, they are brought face to face with God by God.

So yes, I will grant that we can do astral projection. But this does not mean that we can achieve ecstasy or see God or Heaven on our own. We don't have the power or the ability to do that. God has to bring us in.

 

[Jollybear]

Ahh, so you mean the spiritual sight as in the spiritual senses. Yes, there is such a thing, but I don't claim to understand how it functions or what it is like.

Right, spiritual sight. The ability to see things or witness things in that realm. I just call it astral sight for communication purposes.

Yes. This is speaking of the walks of life and the vocations in which we find ourselves before and after we become Christian.

Ahh, I think I understand what you're saying here. You're saying that because we're not called to change our life circumstances when we come Christian, that it would be fine to continue practicing astral projection, yes?
I can see your train of thought here. But also keep in mind that there are some things we are called to repent of and change when we become Christian--such as sinful habits and lifestyles. Even leaving aside the topic of whether astral projection is sinful or not, let that be food for thought.

Yes, correct. Clearly sinful ways need to be changed when one becomes a Christian. However, since the bible does not clearly spell out that “astral projection, leaving the body” is sinful, particularly if motives are right, then it should stand to reason that 1 cor 7:25-28 applies.

Astral projection is one thing, but ecstasy is another.

True, astral projection (which we have the ability) is different than ecstasy. However, with astral projection, we also have the ability to come into ecstasy. I believe God permits it. True, without the permission of God, it can’t happen, but I believe God would always permit it. But God permitting it and we pulling it off are two different things. It’s like my mom telling me “you’re always welcome to visit us in Canada, you’re permitted” and me actually getting the time and money and going up there to visit.

I think we need to make the distinction between judging and discerning. We can discern whether something is sinful and point it out as such, without judging it--judging is what God does. And even when we discern and call attention to the sinfulness of a certain part of our culture or way of living, we should not do so in an intemperate or uncontrolled or angry manner. Remember 1 Corinthians 13, if we say or do something as Christians without love, we are nothing.

Your pointing out her fault/admonishing her to correct it was not judging, it was discerning her sin and pointing it out so she could see and hopefully repent of it. That is not judging, but reproving. To judge would be to say that she is going to Hell for her actions.

I agree with this then.

Even leaving aside whether it is right or wrong, it is impossible.

Ok, BUT, if we do meditation to astral project and then maintain the OBE, and then do techniques to enter heaven, putting aside whether or not it’s possible, if we do it, and it hypothetically takes place, and we have the right motive, would it then be OK to go ahead and do it?

Ahh, that's always annoying. Do let me know if you find them!

Yes, will do.

My point is, even if we can project through meditation, this does not mean that we can experience ecstasy on our own. Rather, ecstasy is by its very nature something granted to us by God, not something of our own doing.

I will use the earlier example of the woman who was taken to space and saw what was probably God and angels. The woman may have projected herself, but her encountering God or ending up in a position to encounter Him was not of her own making. She was taken by Him to meet Him after she had projected. This is consistent with every instance of the Bible where God appears to man; whether the person in question intends to or not, they are brought face to face with God by God.

Ok, this is the assumption. However, if one did the meditation and projected to heaven, and it worked, and they had right motive, would it be OK to do it?

So yes, I will grant that we can do astral projection. But this does not mean that we can achieve ecstasy or see God or Heaven on our own. We don't have the power or the ability to do that. God has to bring us in.

And what if God allowed us to come in every single time if we successfully pulled off astral projection, would that be ok?

 

[Desert Snake]

Perhaps among the Evangelicals and the types of Christians wont to do the kinds of things that you describe. But those types are a very tiny minority among Christians, and quite along the fringes as well.

Are you calling Evangelicals frauds? Why exactly?
Also, explain what "types of Christians" means, is that code for 'not of this or that church'? Do you consider excorcists to be fraudulent?

 

[Draupadi]

Jollybear if you think that astral projection is allowed in Christianity then go on . You don't need other people's validations for that. Being a liberal Muslim, I follow my religion in my own way, that will make the mainstream folks of my faith call me a hypocrite or disbeliever. The thing is the Bible is never direct about forbidding or allowing it, and hence people will have different interpretations. I know I don't need to say it but be cautious. Many Muslims go outside supplicating to God in order to be safe. But if He wills, even then we can be harmed or killed, for whatever reason. This is just my advice to you and best of luck.

PS- Did I tell you how jealous I am of you that you can astral travel? But there are some things I would rather not do, but I mean it.

 

[Jollybear]

Jollybear if you think that astral projection is allowed in Christianity then go on . You don't need other people's validations for that. Being a liberal Muslim, I follow my religion in my own way, that will make the mainstream folks of my faith call me a hypocrite or disbeliever. The thing is the Bible is never direct about forbidding or allowing it, and hence people will have different interpretations. I know I don't need to say it but be cautious. Many Muslims go outside supplicating to God in order to be safe. But if He wills, even then we can be harmed or killed, for whatever reason. This is just my advice to you and best of luck.

Well, my reason for discussing and debating it is not because i want peoples validation, but rather because i want to be sure i am not wrong in my view. So, in order to find out, i present my view and then my arguments for it, and then welcome cretique and then refute back and forth and see if my logic falls apart after awhile, if it does, then i give up astral projection, if not, then i go forward with it.

For me, it's not only about what i desire, but what is true and right and good. I think it's wise to welcome CONSTRUCTIVE criticism to one's view, not stupid creticism, big difference there. I think it also forces me to be unbiased as well.

PS- Did I tell you how jealous I am of you that you can astral travel? But there are some things I would rather not do, but I mean it.

Actually, no need to be jelous, let me tell you why. First, you have the same ability to astral project, it just takes meditation work. Secondly, i find it hard to astral travel, i got to work hard at it. Thirdly, i have only projected twice and almost a third time.

But if through these discussions i find no strong reason to avoid it, then i will go ahead with full force.

 

[Shiranui117]

Are you calling Evangelicals frauds? Why exactly?

Certainly not. However, there are most certainly those with extreme views and/or fraudulent intentions among Evangelicals--the mega-preachers making millions of dollars preaching the evils of Pokemon, Dungeons and Dragons, and evolution, and doing services with "slaying of the spirit" come to mind. Yet this is clearly not all Evangelicals, but rather a small part.

Also, explain what "types of Christians" means, is that code for 'not of this or that church'? Do you consider excorcists to be fraudulent?

I personally don't consider any of the "slayings of the spirit", "speaking in tongues" or other nonsense happening at fringe fundamentalist or fringe Pentecostal churches to be genuine.

But I do believe that exorcists who have been trained in either the Catholic and the Orthodox Church, or those who live a sincere life of prayer and Christian faith, are genuine, and I do believe that demons are exorcised through their prayers. On the other hand, the mega-preachers who make people fall backwards on stage in front of their audiences of thousands, at best have no clue what they're actually doing, and at worst are deliberate frauds.

 

[Shiranui117]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you in a while, I've been having finals and I'm preparing to move back to the States.

Yes, correct. Clearly sinful ways need to be changed when one becomes a Christian. However, since the bible does not clearly spell out that “astral projection, leaving the body” is sinful, particularly if motives are right, then it should stand to reason that 1 cor 7:25-28 applies.

I think you might be thinking of another passage like 1 Corinthians 10:23-32.

True, astral projection (which we have the ability) is different than ecstasy. However, with astral projection, we also have the ability to come into ecstasy. I believe God permits it. True, without the permission of God, it can’t happen, but I believe God would always permit it. But God permitting it and we pulling it off are two different things. It’s like my mom telling me “you’re always welcome to visit us in Canada, you’re permitted” and me actually getting the time and money and going up there to visit.

Except, I do not think that God always allows this, nor do I see any reason why He would. God already dwells in our hearts. The Son gives us His Body and Blood every Sunday in the Eucharist. The Holy Spirit has made us into temples for Him. That alone should be enough miracles. The gift of ecstasy is no different or greater than these other things. Neither astral projection nor ecstasy accomplish anything more than what we as Christians already live out in the sacramental life.

Ok, BUT, if we do meditation to astral project and then maintain the OBE, and then do techniques to enter heaven, putting aside whether or not it’s possible, if we do it, and it hypothetically takes place, and we have the right motive, would it then be OK to go ahead and do it?

Only if God allows it.

And what if God allowed us to come in every single time if we successfully pulled off astral projection, would that be ok?

If God allows it and does not forbid it, then it would be alright.

 

[Jollybear]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you in a while, I've been having finals and I'm preparing to move back to the States.

Where are you living now if outside the states? What finals were you doing?

I think you might be thinking of another passage like 1 Corinthians 10:23-32.

Yea, that passage can work too, but I was still thinking of 1 Corinthians 7:25:28

Except, I do not think that God always allows this, nor do I see any reason why He would. God already dwells in our hearts.

Yes, that is true, he dwells in the heart, but that does not negate that it’s wrong to want to visit heaven. Actually, check this verse out: Colossians 3:1-2
“Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

So, yes, God is in the heart, but the heart is to be set on things above. So, if one wants to visit there and tries to, it appears from this passage, that is perfectly ok, even encouraged.

The Son gives us His Body and Blood every Sunday in the Eucharist. The Holy Spirit has made us into temples for Him. That alone should be enough miracles.

It’s not about the miracles for me, it’s about the TYPE of experience.

The gift of ecstasy is no different or greater than these other things.

Hmmm, I don’t know about that. Many people partake of the Eucharist and it doesn’t do anything for them. They go back to living like the devil all week. And those that don’t go back to living like the devil, it still feels like just eating a cracker and sipping wine. Even if they do know what it represents.

Neither astral projection nor ecstasy accomplish anything more than what we as Christians already live out in the sacramental life.

I think it would accomplish something different then sacraments or Eucharist. The Eucharist is representing or is a visual reminder of what Christ did and is thus an outward celebration of what he did for us. That outward celebration can be celebrated inwardly from the heart, but still none the less, the two things are different.

Only if God allows it.

Either that, or our strategy of techniques was off tilt.

So, in other words, either it’s IF God allows it, or IF we need more knowledge.

Which I honestly think it’s the second one. Remember, scripture says, growing in the KNOWLEDGE of God.

If God allows it and does not forbid it, then it would be alright.

So, if one does the meditation and it happens that they come out of body and enter heaven, then you’re saying God allowed it.

But, if that is the case, then from your perspective, it seams like your saying that if God allowed it, then weather you meditated or not, it would have happened regardless.
Now, yes, I do think spontaneous OBE’s take place, well, I don’t think this, I know that. And there are God given OBE’s, even if the person does not meditate. However, if someone meditates and they enter heaven, your saying that it was God that did it, not the meditation. And this is where the crux of the matter lies.

This is the BIG question. IF one meditates and they have an OBE and enter heaven, was it God that brought them into this experience, or was it the CORRECT meditation technique that did it?

I would concede that it’s both.

Because if they did not make effort (meditation) and if God was not there to embrace there effort (God’s part), it would not take place.

 

[Shiranui117]

Where are you living now if outside the states? What finals were you doing?

I've been living in Salzburg, Austria since the end of September, studying for a year at the Universität Salzburg to further my German major. The finals I've been doing have been in all my courses.

Yes, that is true, he dwells in the heart, but that does not negate that it’s wrong to want to visit heaven. Actually, check this verse out: Colossians 3:1-2
“Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

So, yes, God is in the heart, but the heart is to be set on things above. So, if one wants to visit there and tries to, it appears from this passage, that is perfectly ok, even encouraged.

Yes, but the heavenly things aren't just things "up there" that we don't have "down here". The heavenly things are virtues, blessings, graces, and love. The verses following those two explain this clearly:

5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you:[b] sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.[c] 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self[d] with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,[e] free; but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

^These are the heavenly things which we are called to set our hearts on.

It’s not about the miracles for me, it’s about the TYPE of experience.

So you seek spectacles and wonders, but disregard the miracles from God which are seen with the eyes of faith?

Hmmm, I don’t know about that. Many people partake of the Eucharist and it doesn’t do anything for them. They go back to living like the devil all week. And those that don’t go back to living like the devil, it still feels like just eating a cracker and sipping wine. Even if they do know what it represents.

Those who eat and drink the Body and Blood of the Lord unworthily eat and drink condemnation unto themselves. The Eucharist doesn't just represent His Body and Blood. It truly is His Body and Blood.

I think it would accomplish something different then sacraments or Eucharist. The Eucharist is representing or is a visual reminder of what Christ did and is thus an outward celebration of what he did for us. That outward celebration can be celebrated inwardly from the heart, but still none the less, the two things are different.

The Eucharist isn't just a representation or a reminder. Such a view is a Protestant invention that even Martin Luther rejected as heresy. Rather, it is and always has been the ancient Christian position that the Eucharist is truly His Body and Blood. I can give you sources from a personal student of St. John the Apostle written around the year 100 AD that prove as much.

So, in other words, either it’s IF God allows it, or IF we need more knowledge.

Which I honestly think it’s the second one. Remember, scripture says, growing in the KNOWLEDGE of God.

OBE's don't grant more knowledge of God than anything else. Reading the Scriptures, praying, participating in the sacramental and liturgical life of the Church, and following the commandments of God already teach us everything we can possibly learn about God.

So, if one does the meditation and it happens that they come out of body and enter heaven, then you’re saying God allowed it.

Yes.

But, if that is the case, then from your perspective, it seams like your saying that if God allowed it, then weather you meditated or not, it would have happened regardless.

Precisely. The same thing happened to St. John in Revelation.

Now, yes, I do think spontaneous OBE’s take place, well, I don’t think this, I know that. And there are God given OBE’s, even if the person does not meditate. However, if someone meditates and they enter heaven, your saying that it was God that did it, not the meditation. And this is where the crux of the matter lies.

Yes, God did it, not the meditation.

This is the BIG question. IF one meditates and they have an OBE and enter heaven, was it God that brought them into this experience, or was it the CORRECT meditation technique that did it?

I would concede that it’s both.

Because if they did not make effort (meditation) and if God was not there to embrace there effort (God’s part), it would not take place.

But if God gives us the gift of ecstasy without any meditation on our part, which you concede does indeed happen, then it would logically follow that any meditation on our part makes no difference one way or the other.

 

[Jollybear]

I've been living in Salzburg, Austria since the end of September, studying for a year at the Universität Salzburg to further my German major. The finals I've been doing have been in all my courses.

German major, what’s that? What do you plan on doing? How old are you?

Yes, but the heavenly things aren't just things "up there" that we don't have "down here". The heavenly things are virtues, blessings, graces, and love. The verses following those two explain this clearly:

5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you:[b] sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.[c] 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self[d] with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,[e] free; but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
^These are the heavenly things which we are called to set our hearts on.

I agree, that list are heavenly things, but, heavenly things are also, the city itself. Heavenly, as in everything of heaven. Not just how people are in heaven, but heaven itself, the beauty of the place.

So you seek spectacles and wonders, but disregard the miracles from God which are seen with the eyes of faith?

YES, absolutely. I don’t disregard the rituals God has instituted, but I need more then these. I need the spectacles and wonders, for encouragement. And what is wrong with wanting encouragement?

Those who eat and drink the Body and Blood of the Lord unworthily eat and drink condemnation unto themselves. The Eucharist doesn't just represent His Body and Blood. It truly is His Body and Blood.

The Eucharist isn't just a representation or a reminder. Such a view is a Protestant invention that even Martin Luther rejected as heresy. Rather, it is and always has been the ancient Christian position that the Eucharist is truly His Body and Blood. I can give you sources from a personal student of St. John the Apostle written around the year 100 AD that prove as much.

The bread and wine is bread and wine, it’s not actual blood and flesh. So, it therefore must represent his blood and flesh. Do you have scriptural proof that the bread and wine is actually his flesh and blood?

OBE's don't grant more knowledge of God than anything else. Reading the Scriptures, praying, participating in the sacramental and liturgical life of the Church, and following the commandments of God already teach us everything we can possibly learn about God.

Reading scripture WHEN it’s illuminated by the Spirit to our understanding GIVES knowledge of God, otherwise reading it without the Spirit, only gives us information. And information is NOT perse, knowledge. Praying also does not give us knowledge of God UNLESS we CONNECT to God through the actual prayer. Following the commandments also does not give us knowledge unless we understand the commandments and there deep insight. Same thing with the life of the church and our service there too.

Yes.

Precisely. The same thing happened to St. John in Revelation.
Yes, God did it, not the meditation.
But if God gives us the gift of ecstasy without any meditation on our part, which you concede does indeed happen, then it would logically follow that any meditation on our part makes no difference one way or the other.

This is where the crux of the matter is. Can one meditate and enter heaven through the effort of meditation or not? IF they enter, did the meditation do it or did God? You think the meditation does not do it at all. I think it’s both, I think God can do it without the person meditating and I think meditation can do it too, and God would allow it if they are successful with the meditation.

I would like to offer a little more solidness to what I am saying here. Meditation can lower one’s blood pressure. Now, very low blood pressure can have a coloration with having OBE’s. Here is an article that explains it: http://www.astralvoyage.com/projection/pressure.html

Now, if one meditates and they have an OBE and enter heaven say, did God do it? Or did they lower their blood pressure enough, or cause bodily sleep while the mind was awake, in order to have the OBE? It seems reasonable that the body’s natural flow had something to do with the cause of their OBE.

 

[Jollybear]

Here is another link i found that explains meditation lowers blood pressure. Lower blood pressure naturally - WebMD

 

[Shiranui117]

German major, what’s that? What do you plan on doing? How old are you?

A German major is a field of study at university which eventually leads to a Bachelor of Arts in German (i.e. the language). Right now, my plans are to either become a private school German teacher, or become something along the lines of a fitness trainer (I'll soon be switching my Russian major for a major in exercise science). I'm 20 right now, but I turn 21 in a month.

I agree, that list are heavenly things, but, heavenly things are also, the city itself. Heavenly, as in everything of heaven. Not just how people are in heaven, but heaven itself, the beauty of the place.

Yes, but this is a different heavenly thing than what is talked about in the verse.

YES, absolutely. I don’t disregard the rituals God has instituted, but I need more then these. I need the spectacles and wonders, for encouragement. And what is wrong with wanting encouragement?

I smiled as I read this. You probably know that many times in the Bible, Jesus de-emphasizes the importance of signs and wonders. Perhaps you remember what Jesus said to Thomas: "Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed." There's nothing wrong at all with signs and wonders, but we shouldn't be seeking them out. If people aren't jumping up from being confined to wheelchairs every week, if leukemia isn't being spontaneously healed, if we don't see apparitions of the Saints or weeping icons on a regular basis, that's fine. They're not what our faith rests on. There are plenty of miracles taking place every day--maybe not wondrous spectacles, but nonetheless, if we have the eyes of faith, we will behold them all.

The bread and wine is bread and wine, it’s not actual blood and flesh. So, it therefore must represent his blood and flesh. Do you have scriptural proof that the bread and wine is actually his flesh and blood?

Sure! John 6 for starters:

33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. . . .
41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. . . .48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
. . .
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

Jesus explicitly says that we are to eat and drink His Body and Blood. He doesn't restate it to show some symbolic meaning after people are alienated from Him because of these words. He simply asked, "What, do you take offense?" He wasn't speaking in some symbolic manner; He was speaking literally, and commanding us to literally eat His Body and Blood. Many of His disciples walked away from Him because of this.

Further, see 1 Corinthians 11:

23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for[e] you. Do this in remembrance of me.”[f] 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

We can see here that the Eucharist isn't just a simple thing with bread and wine; there are serious consequences for receiving it unworthily. Further, see what a personal student of St. John wrote concerning the Eucharist and those who deny that it is truly the Body and Blood of Christ:

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes.
-St. Ignatius of Antioch (died 100 AD), from his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, chapter 7.

And in another place, in his Epistle to the Philadelphians, chapter 4:

Take ye heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants...

Reading scripture WHEN it’s illuminated by the Spirit to our understanding GIVES knowledge of God, otherwise reading it without the Spirit, only gives us information. And information is NOT perse, knowledge.

Then perhaps you might like to know how the prayer used by every Orthodox Christian before studying the Scriptures begins:

"Illumine our hearts, O Master Who loves mankind, with the pure light of Thy divine knowledge, and open the eyes of our mind to understand Thy Gospel teachings..."

Also, all Christians have the Holy Spirit inside of us, it's just a matter of asking Him to illuminate our understanding.

Praying also does not give us knowledge of God UNLESS we CONNECT to God through the actual prayer.

If you don't connect with God, then you're not praying at all.

Following the commandments also does not give us knowledge unless we understand the commandments and there deep insight. Same thing with the life of the church and our service there too.

Correct. We are not Pharisees. In Orthodoxy, simply paying attention in the divine services is considered one of the best ways to learn the Orthodox Faith, because of how rich in meaning, Scripture and teaching they are.

 

[Shiranui117]

This is where the crux of the matter is. Can one meditate and enter heaven through the effort of meditation or not? IF they enter, did the meditation do it or did God? You think the meditation does not do it at all. I think it’s both, I think God can do it without the person meditating and I think meditation can do it too, and God would allow it if they are successful with the meditation.

Yet it would not happen at all if God would not allow it.

I would like to offer a little more solidness to what I am saying here. Meditation can lower one’s blood pressure. Now, very low blood pressure can have a coloration with having OBE’s. Here is an article that explains it: http://www.astralvoyage.com/projection/pressure.html

Thanks for the physics lesson.

Now, if one meditates and they have an OBE and enter heaven say, did God do it? Or did they lower their blood pressure enough, or cause bodily sleep while the mind was awake, in order to have the OBE? It seems reasonable that the body’s natural flow had something to do with the cause of their OBE.

They may have an OBE on their own, but they would never enter Heaven unless God allowed it and helped them get there.

Here is another link i found that explains meditation lowers blood pressure. Lower blood pressure naturally - WebMD

I'm quite aware of the health benefits of meditation. It's impressive stuff.

 

[Jollybear]

A German major is a field of study at university which eventually leads to a Bachelor of Arts in German (i.e. the language). Right now, my plans are to either become a private school German teacher, or become something along the lines of a fitness trainer (I'll soon be switching my Russian major for a major in exercise science). I'm 20 right now, but I turn 21 in a month.

Very cool. I like exercise science myself, I do go to the gym and workout and eat right. I find that stuff interesting too.

I think people overcomplicate it sometimes though. Some people who are skinny say they tried everything to gain muscle and it didn’t work. And others who are overly fat say they tried everything to lose weight and it did not work.

If the skinny guy would just eat more and gain weight and exercise 2 to three times a week at the same time, he would gain muscle. If the person who is fat, would eat less calories and exercise three to four times a week, they would lose weight and fat.

It’s so simple. Usually the problem is though, the person not gaining muscle, who thinks he is eating enough, is TRULY NOT eating ENOUGH. He just needs to EAT MORE, and if that don’t work, then eat MORE. And the person not losing weight, they need to exercise MORE, or eat LESS, and if that don’t work, exercise even MORE, or eat even LESS.

Everyone wants a short cut. Give me a muscle building powder, I drink one scoop of this and I’ll look like Arnold, and give me a weight loss pill to lose 100 pounds. Haha! There are no short cuts in life.

And then even those who do get into great shape, either from losing a lot of fat or gaining some muscle, EVEN they are still going to reach a genetic ceiling, and the only way to break it is through drugs, which is dangerous.

Yes, but this is a different heavenly thing than what is talked about in the verse.

Ok, in Colossians 3:1-2 it says “Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.”

Now, notice, this is not just talking about virtues of heaven, such as the list of things below the verse, that you quoted. It mentions objects of heaven, such as, things above, WHERE Christ is, SEATED at the RIGHT HAND of God. So, notice the objects mentioned? Not virtues, but objects? There is a “seat”, there is “Christ” on that seat. And there is the “right hand of God”. Those things are objects, not virtues. So, set your hearts on things above, not just the virtues, but the objects, as mentioned.

So, it’s BOTH the objects, which I quoted, and the virtues, below this verse, which you mentioned. It’s both, because, both are mentioned in the passage.

Now what do you say?

Also, it says we are RAISED with Christ. What is raised? Obviously not our body, so it’s our spirit. So, then by implication, it stands to reason, we can project our spirit consciousness to where Christ is seated.

I smiled as I read this. You probably know that many times in the Bible, Jesus de-emphasizes the importance of signs and wonders. Perhaps you remember what Jesus said to Thomas: "Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed."

Yea, but I don’t want to see in order to believe, I want to see in order to be encouraged in what I already believe.

There's nothing wrong at all with signs and wonders, but we shouldn't be seeking them out. If people aren't jumping up from being confined to wheelchairs every week, if leukemia isn't being spontaneously healed, if we don't see apparitions of the Saints or weeping icons on a regular basis, that's fine. They're not what our faith rests on. There are plenty of miracles taking place every day--maybe not wondrous spectacles, but nonetheless, if we have the eyes of faith, we will behold them all.

What’s wrong with seeking the spectacle miracles and wonders?

Even though Jesus said “a wicked generation asks for a miraculous sign”, nevertheless, Jesus still, at times, did miraculous signs. Turning water into wine, walking on water, withering a fig tree, calming a storm, these would be classified as wonders and spectacles. Oh the miraculous catch of fish in the nets. Oh, the catching a fish and finding a coin in it, in fulfillment of his prediction.

But also, everything in the bible has a context, and deals with motives. When Jesus said a wicked generation asks for a sign, he was dealing with the motives of the people he was addressing. Not everyone who asks for a sign is asking for the same reasons.

Here is a list of diverse motives behind asking the same question.

1: person asks for a sign because they don’t believe unless they see one
2: person asks for a sign because they have a bias against the person they are asking, they assume the person won’t be able to provide the sign, and then they can attempt to make them look like a fraud because of it. Even if the person provided the sign, they would still not believe, they would dust it under the rug, or muster it up to natural causes and coincidence, and then still try to make the person look like a fraud.
3: Person asks for a sign because they love to be tickled.
4: person asks for a sign because they need encouragement of the dry journey of life. (this is me).

I think the people Jesus was addressing was number 2, even logic would say, number 2 would easily be classified as “wicked”, which is the word Jesus used. However, he could have lumped in there number 1 and 3 as well possibly. But, number 1 and 3 are obviously not as wicked as number 2.

 

[Jollybear]

Sure! John 6 for starters:

33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. . . .
41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. . . .48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
. . .
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
Jesus explicitly says that we are to eat and drink His Body and Blood. He doesn't restate it to show some symbolic meaning after people are alienated from Him because of these words. He simply asked, "What, do you take offense?" He wasn't speaking in some symbolic manner; He was speaking literally, and commanding us to literally eat His Body and Blood. Many of His disciples walked away from Him because of this.
Further, see 1 Corinthians 11:
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for[e] you. Do this in remembrance of me.”[f] 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
We can see here that the Eucharist isn't just a simple thing with bread and wine; there are serious consequences for receiving it unworthily. Further, see what a personal student of St. John wrote concerning the Eucharist and those who deny that it is truly the Body and Blood of Christ:
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes.
-St. Ignatius of Antioch (died 100 AD), from his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, chapter 7.
And in another place, in his Epistle to the Philadelphians, chapter 4:
Take ye heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants...

Ok, well, in that case, when Jesus said “I am the bread” and if this meant literally, then that means Jesus was walking around over in the east as a walking loaf of bread. People would have seen a loaf of bread, literally walking around. Just imagine what would have gone on. Little child says “look momy, it’s a loaf of bread, it’s walking, it’s talking” and the momy looks and is like “oh my gosh!” she looks at her husband and says “Charles, look, a walking loaf of bread” and he looks and is like “nah, it’s gotta be a costume, lets go check.” So Charles goes over and checks, and then he realizes it’s a real loaf of bread walking, talking and hearing. And then he goes “oh my gosh!” and then the loaf of bread says “if you don’t eat a piece of me, you will not have eternal life” and Charles is like “oh my gosh”! lol…..Also, if the crowd really saw Jesus as a literal loaf of bread, they would have no problem eating his flesh, because it would not be flesh, skin, blood, and bone. It would be, BREAD. But, it obviously was not bread as in the literal sense.

Also, if Jesus meant literal, then when Jesus said that “I am the good shepherd” he must have meant literal for that too? Also when Jesus said “I am the lamb” he must have meant that literal too? But, how can he be literally a loaf of bread and literally be a lamb at the same time? Was a lamb walking around doing miracles and talking in greek or Aramaic with a mans voice? Imagine that one too. Another strange sight to see.

Also, Jesus said that he was the light of the world. Was a literal ball of light floating around, talking to people and doing things? Imagine the light causes bread or wine to go up to it’s mouth and start eating and drinking?

He also said that he was the “way” the “truth” and the “life”. Ok, what would that look like? There is no way to physically describe those things.

Jesus is called the Rock. Does this mean a rock was walking around, with a mouth and two eyes and arms and legs coming from it talking and doing things? Was he literally a rock?

You see, obviously this stuff was all symbolic language Jesus was using. It’s like dream language, it’s not literal, it’s symbolic and thus needs to be interpreted.

I mean, if the bread and wine at church really was his literal flesh and blood, then why is it that when I eat and drink it, I never taste blood or flesh in my mouth? I always taste bread and wine. The flavor and the texture is always bread and wine. If it was literal, then I would taste the texture of flesh and blood. And I know what flesh and blood taste like because I tasted my own blood through cuts many times and I tasted my own flesh through biting my calluses. So, I know what flesh and blood taste like and the thing at church does not taste anything like flesh and blood.