Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Ok please explain evolution in full, since "i clearly don't understand it".
You don't.
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Evolutionism CRUSHED by Creationism
- Thread starter JosephThomas
- Start date
You don't.
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
Sure, just look up 'observed instances of speciation', but remember - one species of fruit fly becoming two species of fruit fly is EXACTLY what speciation means. If you don't undersand that, then you don't know what the tem you are seeking evidence of actually means.
kashmir
Well-Known Member
I am leading towards that God is a deity that we are completely misinterpreting.
Only thing I can explain this with is a that God is the universe and in every single atom.
Quantum mechanics sort of thing.
I do not for a sec believe that when we die, that's it.
No life just dies and that is it.
Trees die and become fertilizer, etc, every life form is all connected, DNA anyone?
Do we really believe if life jumpstarted anywhere else on the universe it will not have the same DNA code?
I think it will be those same letters.
dust1n
Zindīq
Creationism doesn't make more logical sense than evolution, unless you are actually prepared to demonstrate logic. And I mean formal logic. And evolution certainly isn't religious. Evolution doesn't seek to explain metaphysical realities, nor does it contain some ethical framework, just physical phenomenon. Science doesn't take divine intervention into account as a possible explanation for various events.
Firstly, the first, second, third and fourth are all based not on the fact that they were observed by humans, but that a specific hypothesis can be test for by other means other than directly observing the unobservable. When Hubble discovered that the universe was expanding, it was but one many observable actions in nature that support a theory which may or may not be correct, in which future evidence will reveal it as such. Not the case for creationism.
Secondly, macro-evolution has been observed multiple times: Evolution: Watching Speciation Occur | Observations | Science Sushi, Scientific American Blog Network
There are no such things as "kinds." That term holds no scientific meaning whatsoever.
I hear yeah. Just the overwhelming amount of evidence that support solid explanations for physical phenomenon such as the Big Bang theory, and theory of Evolution. The lifespan of stars is well backed by observations of any of the billions of stars in different points of their life spans, although various specific instances of other phenomenon remain at large. Abiogenesis has several competing theories, and if any turn out right, it will be because the scientific method will be other method for providing meaningful, relevant data concerning an explanation for some natural event, instead of just being like, the supernatural explains it all, which is neither compelling nor interesting.
And if you think "kinds" exist, then I'm pretty sure you don't understanding evolution past the basic gist of various modes of what could be considered "evolution."
No there are not, and certainly not the six definitions you list. And no you do not get to redefine a scientific theory just so you can make it look silly.
The definitions you list come from Kent Hovind, an individual with absolutely no scientific education. He doesn't get to redefine evolution to his own liking, and neither do you. You make a serious mistake if you believe anything he says on a scientific topic. Do your own research, what scientist or scientific organization defines evolution the way you have?
Again, you have shown that you do not understand the scientific theory you intend to criticize.
Here is a hint for you. Evolution is not Atheism.
crhodes9898
Member
Ok, I would agree somewhat, however the word you use "species", to me refers to a completely different type of animal. I would call it a kind or type within a species, because where do you draw the line of what is dog type a vs dog type b. Where do you draw the line of which one goes where?
Now i have heard people use the idea of a different number of chromosomes. Such as a chimp with 48 and we have 46.
People with down syndrome have one extra chromosome 21. So if you were to go up to a kid's mother that had down syndrome and say that their kid was a different species, she would probably get ****** at you. So were can you draw the line from which species is which?
However what i was addressing was that there has never been an observation of speciation of something greater. Such as bacteria changing into human beings. Which is the idea of how we evolved.
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Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Look into cladograms and taxonomic systems.
Biological life doesn't provide perfect lines between species. There is no automatic natural categorization or grouping of life forms. Within the same social group of individuals there is a huge variation of the genetic material. You don't have the same genes that I do. There's a reason to why DNA testing can be used in criminal cases... Did you ever think about that?
First of all, that's not how evolution is said to work. It doesn't change overnight from one species to another, and especially not on that large degree you're talking about.
Let's say there are 1 million steps from one city to the next. Can you take all all those steps in one step? No. If there are a million steps, then there are a million steps. Between a fruit fly and humans there are trillions of steps. You can't see it in one single step. You have to see it in each and every one. You can make some jumps here and there, but evolution doesn't switch one animals to another just in one given instance. The changes are small. And we have observed all those small changes and how they can produce offspring that are incompatible with the original. There's been quite some research in plants done where new breeds that can't cross-pollinate with the original plants. The chromosome number has changed, and even phenotype has changed. That's why you today have so many different kinds of tomato, pepper, and so on, because they have new genetic code that didn't exist before. Some of them can't even be mixed. So new species of plants have been observed in our time. New "kinds" of bugs, bacteria, yeast, and more has also been observed (in nature itself), and is one of the problems of food production itself. And much, much more...
crhodes9898
Member
Um, yea I've thought about that, and its not the first time I've heard of this either.
I wasn't referring it to have to happen overnight, i was referring to the fact that no one has made an observation of this, so it is such a skeptical and broad thought.
crhodes9898
Member
These are just guess estimates of things with similar traits, it doesn't mean they are related to a common ancestor. And this doesn't show the split where it turns from one species to another.
Sometimes you can't: ring species
There isn't even a consensus on what should define a species. Using reproductive compatibility as a measure only works with organisms that sexually reproduce, for example. Many do not and therefore cannot be classified using that definition. At the end of the day, "species" is a man-made term that is used for convenience in many situations but is not something that exists objectively.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
You're right. That's what all the fossils and genetics are for.
crhodes9898
Member
That is correct
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Did you observe Paul write the letters? Or Matthew? Therefore Jesus didn't exist.
Did you observe Moses write Genesis? Therefore it's not true.
That's what you're saying?
How do you know if something is true even if you weren't there to observe it when it happened? Are there artifacts? Are there signs that can show you that the things that happened actually did happen?
In Evolution you can observe the species changing in the fossil record. There are literally hundreds of thousands of species that don't exist today that we have fossils of, and not only that, they're all in a chain of changes and differences in order that suggests strongly that they have changed from this to that. Whales, horses, trilobites, and much more show this. And on top of that, the changes follow the radiation on species (spread throughout the world) and the genetic code follows the same pattern and confirms it even more.
Put it this way, let's say you wrote a letter. Someone copied that letter by hand. Someone else copied that one. A bunch of people copied yours, and other copied the other copies and so on. Each copy contains a small spelling error or a rewording. By analyzing the differences we can tell which copy came through which line of copies. We know they're all copies, and we can see in which order they came. You can see the same thing in the DNA.
The DNA contains "spelling errors" (synonymous mutations) and even genetic defects that shows the hereditary line. We have, as humans, a bunch of genetic code that only humans and chimpanzees have in the whole world. And those genetic defects can only be shared through family.
It all points to the same thing. Evolution is true.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Sure.
But... how would you define "kinds" then if not by a cladistic system? The kinds you're talking about when you're mentioning dogs and cats is based on the thought of shared phenotypes (physiological features). Phenotypes are controlled to 90-95% by genotypes. Genotypes can be tested and traced. We know cats from dogs based on their physiological and genetical differences, but we also can see the familiarity through the genetic code and see how they share things that only they have (and it's not necessarily anything that can be seen physically). The "spelling errors" and such can be seen in them. Dogs and cats share transposons that they only have. And then cat-dogs share other transposons with mammals, we all do. And so on... You can spell out the chain of hereditary traits based on these things.
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
Well that is a great example of how you don't even understand the basic terms. Species does not mean 'different types' of animal. What is dishonest is that you are trying to argue agianst speciation without bothering to find out what 'species' even means.
No, chromosome numbers have absolutely nothing to do with it, the line is drawn between closely realated varieties that have become different enough from each other to no longer be able to breed and produce fertile offspring. Before basically calling the entire science of biology a fraud, you could have looked up the relevant words and at least known what they mean.
A bacteria changing into a human being would DISprove evolution and prove Harry Potter.
AndromedaRXJ
Active Member
It wouldn't disprove it, it just wouldn't be in accordance with it. It would just be considered a different thing entirely and not Evolution.
I don't think it would take anything away from the evidence in support of Evolution though, especially if we don't know what caused a bacteria to turn into a human.
As far as we would know, it could have been aliens tampering with a bacteria genome to program it to turn into a human later in it's life. After all, we're able to make goats produce spider silk in their milk.
AndromedaRXJ
Active Member
That's how Evolution works. Nothing stops being anything as it evolves. There's a reason why it's called Evolution and not Transformation. Also "fruit fly" is not a species. It's an entire family containing thousands of different species. Same with dog(or canine) under most formal contexts.
The problem is, you don't understand that you can take any two organisms and they'll always share some kind of kinship. A dog and a cat fall under the same "kind" or clade called carnivora. Both are to different variations within the clade carnivora. A dog and a human are both members of the clade boreoeutheria. They're both are a variation of this "kind". Boreoeutheria, in turn, is a variation of placental mammals. Placental mammals, in turn, is a variation of mammals in general. See where I'm going with this?
Fruit flys are insects and insects are very distant from mammals. But even they share kinship. They're both animals. But it doesn't stop there. They're both eumetazoa, a variation of animals. They're both bilateria, a variation of eumetazoa.
JosephThomas
Member
Although, you have all come to the correct conclusion. God did indeed create the world for Chocolate milk, You seem to not understand how he came round to such an ends... starting at the beginning evidently.
Let me elaborate, for I have been summoned for just this cause. So, first take note, and keep this in mind, and establish it as the parameters of this discussion: I do not endorse the support of others to defend me, or making remarks concerning the definition of Christianity, or religion, or faith.
You must acknowledge my Faith in God, my religion as being My own, and therefor, must be regarded with 0% preconceived notions.
[ You all acknowledge your lack of understanding of Religion. and I will verify this lack of understanding. ]
First:
In order for God, who is beyond comprehension to be understood, he must establish a summarized IMAGE, or WORD, or mere LIGHT of his Glory, for us to perceive. And only if this Word, or Light comes from the brilliance of God, can it be acknowledge this wisdom comes from God and you have perceived Him at all!
{ If you have read Sanskrit, in this way you will discover it is a MONOthiest religion, and stakes this claim repeatedly in all it's scriptures. If you have not read Sanskrit, or do not understand how it is uniform with Islam and Christianity (where they have originated,unadulterated) then do not respond to this portion of the post. Just study it. Or you will therefor be disregarding reason in your response, which is anti scientific no?}
Now, That God is perceivable -
as the Properties He has selected as being perfect and wise -
We begin our debunking of Evolution at the begin:
In the Beginning there was Nothing.
For if there was not the establishing of everything,
then there was no beginning.
Everything MUST have a source of origin.
To begin a foundation for everything,
one does not need to produce all elements simultaneously,
but they can appear in a linear fashion,
and in such a fashion,
the universe was first established without the element of Energy.
(I'll refit energy for the word electricity, because some argue not all the portions of electricity which make it up as a whole are constituted as electricity. So Light is Energy. and Energy is the movement of all matter. And time is the distinction between one change and another, and thus Energy is Time, and light is Time, but the movement of matter is yet NOT LIGHT. )
And thus,
Because an Athiest does not considerate relevant or important:
-to discuss
-or necessary to put faith in his lack of faith,
God begins his recounting of the Story of Creation, not at the producing of all matter,
but at the moment of CHAnGE:
the beginning of life itself,
with the establishing of the element of LIGHT { all self contained energy of the universe..
So, because the focus of Gods wisdom was on the surface of the planet earth at this time,
Earth was selected through mathematical perfection to be the ground zero for the phenomena of Light.
And thus,
as Light became the distinction between where there was energy and where there was not,
it followed the easiest path of travel,
and did not venture out into the openness of space,
but molecularized all the less dense particles which have arranged themselves as the surface of the planet.
[ because energy clings. ]
because the word WATER,
has historically been used to define liquid water not as being H2O, but instead every element that makes it what it is, life sustaining and stable.
All other contributing elements are constituted as water as well.
indeed.
the sky is made up off all the same elemental matter as liquid rivers, lakes, and oceans.
The Sky is water, by basic principal of the definition of water over the last 6000 years.
So, because the path of less resistance is to molecularize the waters first: The ocean,
which was yet molecularized, but still regarded as water, (due to it's being all the substances that make up water.)
stabilized itself by producing a gaseous body,
which was divide from the liquid,
yet cycles between the two,
proving both sustain each other and are of the same elements.
THE THIRD DAY. Notice, days are divided not by night, which no longer exists, (the absence of light.) but by Morening and Evening.
The water had more and then was even,
by passing the energy on to?
The dense matter at the foundation of the Ocean.
The surface of the planet immediately began to form a crust;
a solid, molecularized layer.
But this does not stop the energy from delving deeper,
and thus, the earth continued to develop,
from what is now a restricted amount of space,
and the Crust thus cracks,
and the Earth expands from within itself to bring the dry land forth from beneath the water.
=And had any of you for an instant looked into this phenomena as I had assumed would be common sense among scientists and those who use facts,
You can prove this occurred using the geological blueprint of the Planet.
This is evident in the geology of every mountain range, and every continental divide, and every body of salt water, and the foundations of the planet very thoroughly show how it came about.
Not yet the end of the third day however, because there was no Evening of the energies.
The energy passes back into the water,
which has no place for it,
and establishes the miracle of seeds,
as a portion of Gods great decree and word of mathematical brilliance,
{ Let there be light,
and let the waters be divided,
and let the earth come forth from beneath the water,
and let there be green seeds on the earth. } because the water and earth had 100% energy, and the energy was then caught!
I have rid you of ignorance, so adorn your sins with worry and caution. you are not forgiven for using the Wisdom of God in vain. The only way to accept the Wisdom of God, is to come into it in an acceptable formula, "The Fear of God", which is defined as, "Hating what God hates."
For all those who call Christians hypocrites for hating, It is our first decree. HATE what God Hates. Hindu, Buddhism, Tao, Mythology, Islam, Christianity.. every faith with scripture.
Now though, God said, Let there be light in the heavens, for the energies next path of least resistance is to forgo the boundaries of earths entity. And there it is one with itself,
bulking and growing and clinging to itself,
accumulating all the matter floating around in open space,
so that it orbits the earth,
and continues accumulating,
until the moon is of a sufficient state to continue circulating around the earth in this solar vacuum,
that the sun will grow in an elliptical away from these bodies to continue growing without altering them more,
because of their sufficient 100% energy levels.
Where the sun accumulates the rest of the planets in orbit of itself.
In their paths of least resistance.
And the Universe,
which is by definition,
everything that is in unity,
continues to expand,
but has a current boundary.
This universe presses in on itself without crushing us because the easiest path of travel is to not exceed 100% but is to expand slowly into the emptiness without resistance.
This scientific map of the movement and behavior of elements and energy is factual. And do not forget the third day, which is actually reproducible.
The 5th day however, when all egg bearing creatures were established, is as theological as whether or not you can stock faith in the previous four. But because there is yet sprouts on the earth, God created egg bearers through his perfect formula for Creation. and on the 6th day all creatures came into being.
(EVOLUTION IS THE THEORY GOD DID NOT ESTABLISH LIFE AS DIPICTED IN THE BOOK OF GENISIS)
Nothing PROVES Evolution. Athiesm simply stipulates it, is as supported as any other theory. however this is a false claim. and Evolution is solidly debunked and crushed by the third day of creation; when the Earth expanded and left no room for it.
However.
One can not date something using a formula established on stipulations to guestimate the age of anything beyond a reasonable age, because the math does not exist to indicate something is more than a few thousand years old. To put faith in such a process is delusion. One did not find billion year old embryos, others simply welcomed the arrogant notion of blurting their lack of understanding. As is the function of Athiesm. Arrogance though ignorance.
Electricity constitutes every element of energy. Electricity is Light, and that is Time.
Good luck figuring it out.
But not so much as, Good luck understanding why,
Christianity, is a functioning faith because, like the Masons, it establishes rule,
The Romans religion states that an omnipotent force, created all things and no other 'god' or titan had authority over this occurrence,
but instead they, like us, were able to thereafter utilize such forces as if they were tools or were capable of restricting them.
All forces of nature are so.
And in this way, and in the way that Christianity/islam supports paganism, which like themselves are misinterpreted by ignorant individuals, Gods unison of all faiths has given us rule and stability and surety.
~ Christianity = acknowledging God through the LIGHT, or Word, or IMAGE of himself which he had provided; is the only reason people do not rape children, that you have any rights, that you are not eaten, and that humans do not have a sexual mating season like every other animal known to exist. { because we are meant to apply restraint and reason to our actions to show respect to each other and the universal laws.
Every religion since the beginning of Time states, be married.
but now I'm rambling.
The first 4 days did Evolution in, but only after it was permitted time to disgrace itself.
Let me elaborate, for I have been summoned for just this cause. So, first take note, and keep this in mind, and establish it as the parameters of this discussion: I do not endorse the support of others to defend me, or making remarks concerning the definition of Christianity, or religion, or faith.
You must acknowledge my Faith in God, my religion as being My own, and therefor, must be regarded with 0% preconceived notions.
[ You all acknowledge your lack of understanding of Religion. and I will verify this lack of understanding. ]
First:
In order for God, who is beyond comprehension to be understood, he must establish a summarized IMAGE, or WORD, or mere LIGHT of his Glory, for us to perceive. And only if this Word, or Light comes from the brilliance of God, can it be acknowledge this wisdom comes from God and you have perceived Him at all!
{ If you have read Sanskrit, in this way you will discover it is a MONOthiest religion, and stakes this claim repeatedly in all it's scriptures. If you have not read Sanskrit, or do not understand how it is uniform with Islam and Christianity (where they have originated,unadulterated) then do not respond to this portion of the post. Just study it. Or you will therefor be disregarding reason in your response, which is anti scientific no?}
Now, That God is perceivable -
as the Properties He has selected as being perfect and wise -
We begin our debunking of Evolution at the begin:
In the Beginning there was Nothing.
For if there was not the establishing of everything,
then there was no beginning.
Everything MUST have a source of origin.
To begin a foundation for everything,
one does not need to produce all elements simultaneously,
but they can appear in a linear fashion,
and in such a fashion,
the universe was first established without the element of Energy.
(I'll refit energy for the word electricity, because some argue not all the portions of electricity which make it up as a whole are constituted as electricity. So Light is Energy. and Energy is the movement of all matter. And time is the distinction between one change and another, and thus Energy is Time, and light is Time, but the movement of matter is yet NOT LIGHT. )
And thus,
Because an Athiest does not considerate relevant or important:
-to discuss
-or necessary to put faith in his lack of faith,
God begins his recounting of the Story of Creation, not at the producing of all matter,
but at the moment of CHAnGE:
the beginning of life itself,
with the establishing of the element of LIGHT { all self contained energy of the universe..
So, because the focus of Gods wisdom was on the surface of the planet earth at this time,
Earth was selected through mathematical perfection to be the ground zero for the phenomena of Light.
And thus,
as Light became the distinction between where there was energy and where there was not,
it followed the easiest path of travel,
and did not venture out into the openness of space,
but molecularized all the less dense particles which have arranged themselves as the surface of the planet.
[ because energy clings. ]
because the word WATER,
has historically been used to define liquid water not as being H2O, but instead every element that makes it what it is, life sustaining and stable.
All other contributing elements are constituted as water as well.
indeed.
the sky is made up off all the same elemental matter as liquid rivers, lakes, and oceans.
The Sky is water, by basic principal of the definition of water over the last 6000 years.
So, because the path of less resistance is to molecularize the waters first: The ocean,
which was yet molecularized, but still regarded as water, (due to it's being all the substances that make up water.)
stabilized itself by producing a gaseous body,
which was divide from the liquid,
yet cycles between the two,
proving both sustain each other and are of the same elements.
THE THIRD DAY. Notice, days are divided not by night, which no longer exists, (the absence of light.) but by Morening and Evening.
The water had more and then was even,
by passing the energy on to?
The dense matter at the foundation of the Ocean.
The surface of the planet immediately began to form a crust;
a solid, molecularized layer.
But this does not stop the energy from delving deeper,
and thus, the earth continued to develop,
from what is now a restricted amount of space,
and the Crust thus cracks,
and the Earth expands from within itself to bring the dry land forth from beneath the water.
=And had any of you for an instant looked into this phenomena as I had assumed would be common sense among scientists and those who use facts,
You can prove this occurred using the geological blueprint of the Planet.
This is evident in the geology of every mountain range, and every continental divide, and every body of salt water, and the foundations of the planet very thoroughly show how it came about.
Not yet the end of the third day however, because there was no Evening of the energies.
The energy passes back into the water,
which has no place for it,
and establishes the miracle of seeds,
as a portion of Gods great decree and word of mathematical brilliance,
{ Let there be light,
and let the waters be divided,
and let the earth come forth from beneath the water,
and let there be green seeds on the earth. } because the water and earth had 100% energy, and the energy was then caught!
I have rid you of ignorance, so adorn your sins with worry and caution. you are not forgiven for using the Wisdom of God in vain. The only way to accept the Wisdom of God, is to come into it in an acceptable formula, "The Fear of God", which is defined as, "Hating what God hates."
For all those who call Christians hypocrites for hating, It is our first decree. HATE what God Hates. Hindu, Buddhism, Tao, Mythology, Islam, Christianity.. every faith with scripture.
Now though, God said, Let there be light in the heavens, for the energies next path of least resistance is to forgo the boundaries of earths entity. And there it is one with itself,
bulking and growing and clinging to itself,
accumulating all the matter floating around in open space,
so that it orbits the earth,
and continues accumulating,
until the moon is of a sufficient state to continue circulating around the earth in this solar vacuum,
that the sun will grow in an elliptical away from these bodies to continue growing without altering them more,
because of their sufficient 100% energy levels.
Where the sun accumulates the rest of the planets in orbit of itself.
In their paths of least resistance.
And the Universe,
which is by definition,
everything that is in unity,
continues to expand,
but has a current boundary.
This universe presses in on itself without crushing us because the easiest path of travel is to not exceed 100% but is to expand slowly into the emptiness without resistance.
This scientific map of the movement and behavior of elements and energy is factual. And do not forget the third day, which is actually reproducible.
The 5th day however, when all egg bearing creatures were established, is as theological as whether or not you can stock faith in the previous four. But because there is yet sprouts on the earth, God created egg bearers through his perfect formula for Creation. and on the 6th day all creatures came into being.
(EVOLUTION IS THE THEORY GOD DID NOT ESTABLISH LIFE AS DIPICTED IN THE BOOK OF GENISIS)
Nothing PROVES Evolution. Athiesm simply stipulates it, is as supported as any other theory. however this is a false claim. and Evolution is solidly debunked and crushed by the third day of creation; when the Earth expanded and left no room for it.
However.
One can not date something using a formula established on stipulations to guestimate the age of anything beyond a reasonable age, because the math does not exist to indicate something is more than a few thousand years old. To put faith in such a process is delusion. One did not find billion year old embryos, others simply welcomed the arrogant notion of blurting their lack of understanding. As is the function of Athiesm. Arrogance though ignorance.
Electricity constitutes every element of energy. Electricity is Light, and that is Time.
Good luck figuring it out.
But not so much as, Good luck understanding why,
Christianity, is a functioning faith because, like the Masons, it establishes rule,
The Romans religion states that an omnipotent force, created all things and no other 'god' or titan had authority over this occurrence,
but instead they, like us, were able to thereafter utilize such forces as if they were tools or were capable of restricting them.
All forces of nature are so.
And in this way, and in the way that Christianity/islam supports paganism, which like themselves are misinterpreted by ignorant individuals, Gods unison of all faiths has given us rule and stability and surety.
~ Christianity = acknowledging God through the LIGHT, or Word, or IMAGE of himself which he had provided; is the only reason people do not rape children, that you have any rights, that you are not eaten, and that humans do not have a sexual mating season like every other animal known to exist. { because we are meant to apply restraint and reason to our actions to show respect to each other and the universal laws.
Every religion since the beginning of Time states, be married.
but now I'm rambling.
The first 4 days did Evolution in, but only after it was permitted time to disgrace itself.
Last edited: