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Whore of Babylon

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The Crusades were done by the Catholics, and we Orthodox were also savaged by the Crusaders--for example, in 1204 when the Catholic Venetians sacked Constantinople. Our altars were desecrated as Crusaders had sex with prostitutes atop them, the chalices from whence we served the Eucharist were used by Venetian drunkards as vessels for wine and beer, our nuns and women were raped, our clergy, monks and men were slaughtered, our relics and icons were stolen or destroyed.

Orthodox soldiers fought for the Empire as long as it was giving Caesar Caesar's due, and not overstepping the bounds set by Christ.

this is very sad. Christians killing christians...both of which were serving the interests of the Roman empire.

And completely ignored Christs commands:

John 13:34  I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

Do you realise that by going to war for the empire, they were no longer Christ's disciples? And today the continue to fight christians in other lands and go to war for their 'empires'


You have no proof that Christianity adopted any pagan beliefs whatsoever.

Encyclopædia Britannica
“Nothing perhaps has tended more thoroughly to corrupt Christianity than the introduction into it of superstitions which are really pagan themselves, or have been suggested by pagan practices. Paganism, unable to oppose Christianity successfully, has done much to corrupt it, and in numberless ways has made inroads into its purity.”

M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia
“The simplicity of the Gospel was corrupted; pompous rites and ceremonies were introduced; worldly honors and emoluments were conferred on the teachers of Christianity, and the kingdom of Christ in a great measure converted into a kingdom of this world.”

Essays and Sketches, the 19th-century Roman Catholic cardinal John Henry Newman
“The phenomenon, admitted on all hands, is this:—That great portion of what is generally received as Christian truth is, in its rudiments or in its separate parts, to be found in heathen philosophies and religions. For instance, the doctrine of a Trinity is found both in the East and in the West; so is the ceremony of washing; so is the rite of sacrifice. The doctrine of the Divine Word is Platonic; the doctrine of the Incarnation is Indian.”


The Development of Christian Doctrine, Cardinal Newman
“Constantine, in order to recommend the new [Roman Catholic] religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own.” Then, after listing many of the practices of his church, the cardinal admits that these “are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.

There is plenty of evidence that the church adopted all their practices (which they are currently and still practising) from pagan religions. Its even recognized by people within the church itself.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
~ Jeremiah 10:1-4

christmas-tree-decoration-ideas-red-and-gold-itia0xcs.jpg
Except, that verse has nothing to do with Christmas trees. It has to do with making idols--as in, statues of gods. Christmas trees actually have a Christian meaning--the evergreen tree standing alive in the midst of winter symbolizes Christ, Who is the Life in the midst of the deadness of this world.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
this is very sad. Christians killing christians...both of which were serving the interests of the Roman empire.

And completely ignored Christs commands:

John 13:34  I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

Do you realise that by going to war for the empire, they were no longer Christ's disciples?

And today the continue to fight christians in other lands and go to war for their 'empires'
Yes, which I so vehemently oppose US foreign policy in the Middle East. Our government is literally giving terrorists money and weapons to go butcher Christians, desecrate our churches and destroy Christian communities that have existed for 2,000 years against all odds--they survived the Persians, they survived the Caliphates and the Ottomans... only to be exterminated by America, the so-called defender of freedom, democracy and liberty in the world. Very few Americans even realize what our government is doing. If more Christians got wind of it, there would be an uproar against any form of intervention in the Middle East, and we would very likely stop blindly supporting Israel.

There is plenty of evidence that the church adopted all their practices (which they are currently and still practising) from pagan religions. Its even recognized by people within the church itself.
We have taken what is redeemable--we have found what footprints God has left on native cultures as hints of Who He is, and shown those footprints for what they are. There is no pagan symbolism in Christianity. Christianity has not become paganized; rather, formerly pagan symbols have been redeemed and thoroughly Christianized.
 
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kjw47

Well-Known Member
Yes, which I so vehemently oppose US foreign policy in the Middle East. Our government is literally giving terrorists money and weapons to go butcher Christians, desecrate our churches and destroy Christian communities that have existed for 2,000 years against all odds--they survived the Persians, they survived the Caliphates and the Ottomans... only to be exterminated by America, the so-called defender of freedom, democracy and liberty in the world. Very few Americans even realize what our government is doing. If more Christians got wind of it, there would be an uproar against any form of intervention in the Middle East, and we would very likely stop blindly supporting Israel.

We have taken what is redeemable--we have found what footprints God has left on native cultures as hints of Who He is, and shown those footprints for what they are. There is no pagan symbolism in Christianity. Christianity has not become paganized; rather, formerly pagan symbols have been redeemed and thoroughly Christianized.



The cross is a pagan religious symbol--it was around in the ot days---Jesus would never allow it to be his mark. The little metal cross is an icon--forbidden usage in Gods word.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
The cross is a pagan religious symbol--it was around in the ot days---Jesus would never allow it to be his mark.
Not so. As Moses' arms were held up to give the Israelites victory, so Christ's arms were held up upon the Cross as Death is defeated by His death.

10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill. 11 As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning. 12 When Moses’ hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up—one on one side, one on the other—so that his hands remained steady till sunset. 13 So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.

The little metal cross is an icon--forbidden usage in Gods word.
Icons or images (both coming from the Greek word eikon, meaning "image") that are venerated and saluted=/=idols that are worshipped and served. Christ Himself is the visible image of the invisible God, and we are all ourselves icons of God.

Solomon filled the Temple with images and carvings and icons of plants and cherubim, and God saw fit to dwell within that Temple. Images and icons are not in themselves forbidden by Scripture--indeed, we have ruins of a Jewish synagogue from roughly 250 AD where the walls were absolutely covered in iconography, very reminiscent of Byzantine Christian iconography.

Dura-Europos synagogue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Because of the paintings adorning the walls, the synagogue was at first mistaken for a Greek temple. Though this was quickly corrected by the vice-director of excavations Robert du Mesnil du Buisson in Les peintures de la synagogue de Doura-Europos (Rome, 1939). Mesnil also made detailed comparisons of the friezes from the Dura synagogue with those of the mithraeum, the Christian baptistery, and the temple of the Palmyrene gods.[1]
The synagogue contains a forecourt and house of assembly with painted walls depicting people and animals, and a Torah shrine in the western wall facing Jerusalem. The paintings cover the walls of the main "Assembly Room", using three levels of pictures over a dado frieze of symbols in most places, reaching a height of about 7 metres. The scenes depicted are drawn from the Hebrew Bible and include many narrative scenes, and some single figure "portraits"—58 scenes in total, probably representing about 60% of the original number. They include the Sacrifice of Isaac and other Genesis stories, Moses receiving the Tablets of the Law, Moses leading the Hebrews out of Egypt, the visions of Ezekiel, and many others. The Hand of God motif is used to represent divine intervention or approval in several paintings. Scholars cannot agree on the subjects of some scenes, because of damage, or the lack of comparative examples.
Stylistically they are provincial versions of contemporary Graeco-Roman style and technique; several different artists seem to have worked on them. Technically they are not fresco (paint fused into wet plaster) but tempera over plaster. Earlier parts of the building have decorative painting with no figures. Some of the paintings have figures whose eyes have been scratched out, especially those in Persian costume. (See the figure on the white horse in the picture at right.)

Scenes from the Book of Esther from the Dura-Europos synagogue, 244 CE


Scholars think the paintings were used as an instructional display to educate and teach the history and laws of the religion. Some think that this synagogue was painted in order to compete with the many other religions practiced in Dura Europos; the new (and considerably smaller) Christian church (Dura-Europos church) appears to have opened shortly before the surviving paintings were begun in the synagogue. The large-scale pictorial art in the synagogue came as a surprise to scholars, although they already suspected that there was a tradition of Jewish narrative religious art at this period, which had all been lost, leaving only traces in later Christian art. The discovery of the synagogue helps to dispel narrow interpretations of Judaism's historical prohibition of visual images.
 
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kjw47

Well-Known Member
Not so. As Moses' arms were held up to give the Israelites victory, so Christ's arms were held up upon the Cross as Death is defeated by His death.

10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill. 11 As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning. 12 When Moses’ hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up—one on one side, one on the other—so that his hands remained steady till sunset. 13 So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.

Icons or images (both coming from the Greek word eikon, meaning "image") that are venerated and saluted=/=idols that are worshipped and served. Christ Himself is the visible image of the invisible God, and we are all ourselves icons of God.

Solomon filled the Temple with images and carvings and icons of plants and cherubim, and God saw fit to dwell within that Temple. Images and icons are not in themselves forbidden by Scripture--indeed, we have ruins of a Jewish synagogue from roughly 250 AD where the walls were absolutely covered in iconography, very reminiscent of Byzantine Christian iconography.

Dura-Europos synagogue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Because of the paintings adorning the walls, the synagogue was at first mistaken for a Greek temple. Though this was quickly corrected by the vice-director of excavations Robert du Mesnil du Buisson in Les peintures de la synagogue de Doura-Europos (Rome, 1939). Mesnil also made detailed comparisons of the friezes from the Dura synagogue with those of the mithraeum, the Christian baptistery, and the temple of the Palmyrene gods.[1]
The synagogue contains a forecourt and house of assembly with painted walls depicting people and animals, and a Torah shrine in the western wall facing Jerusalem. The paintings cover the walls of the main "Assembly Room", using three levels of pictures over a dado frieze of symbols in most places, reaching a height of about 7 metres. The scenes depicted are drawn from the Hebrew Bible and include many narrative scenes, and some single figure "portraits"—58 scenes in total, probably representing about 60% of the original number. They include the Sacrifice of Isaac and other Genesis stories, Moses receiving the Tablets of the Law, Moses leading the Hebrews out of Egypt, the visions of Ezekiel, and many others. The Hand of God motif is used to represent divine intervention or approval in several paintings. Scholars cannot agree on the subjects of some scenes, because of damage, or the lack of comparative examples.
Stylistically they are provincial versions of contemporary Graeco-Roman style and technique; several different artists seem to have worked on them. Technically they are not fresco (paint fused into wet plaster) but tempera over plaster. Earlier parts of the building have decorative painting with no figures. Some of the paintings have figures whose eyes have been scratched out, especially those in Persian costume. (See the figure on the white horse in the picture at right.)

Scenes from the Book of Esther from the Dura-Europos synagogue, 244 CE


Scholars think the paintings were used as an instructional display to educate and teach the history and laws of the religion. Some think that this synagogue was painted in order to compete with the many other religions practiced in Dura Europos; the new (and considerably smaller) Christian church (Dura-Europos church) appears to have opened shortly before the surviving paintings were begun in the synagogue. The large-scale pictorial art in the synagogue came as a surprise to scholars, although they already suspected that there was a tradition of Jewish narrative religious art at this period, which had all been lost, leaving only traces in later Christian art. The discovery of the synagogue helps to dispel narrow interpretations of Judaism's historical prohibition of visual images.

Many bow to a hand carved Jesus and kiss their little metal cross, like either object can do a thing.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Many bow to a hand carved Jesus and kiss their little metal cross, like either object can do a thing.
Except, they're not worshipping a statue or the cross and asking those hunks of plaster or metal or paint or wood for help--if it is, then they've committed a grave sin and need to repent and go to Confession immediately. Rather, they are giving Jesus honor, the same way a soldier salutes the flag of his country. The flag itself isn't being honored or saluted; rather, what it represents and stands for is being honored and saluted. And it certainly isn't being worshipped.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Haven't idol worshippers for the most part acknowledged that the idols are mere stand ins for God? Is it common for idol worshippers to insist that their idol is, in fact, their God?
 

Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
Except, they're not worshipping a statue or the cross and asking those hunks of plaster or metal or paint or wood for help--if it is, then they've committed a grave sin and need to repent and go to Confession immediately. Rather, they are giving Jesus honor, the same way a soldier salutes the flag of his country. The flag itself isn't being honored or saluted; rather, what it represents and stands for is being honored and saluted. And it certainly isn't being worshipped.

And what better way to worship a 1st century impoverished Middle-Eastern Jewish carpenter, than by bowing to a statue of a dainty, rosy-cheeked, blonde-haired, blue-eyed white European in lavish robes, and long flowing hair. Am I right?
il_340x270.491050432_255t.jpg
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
And what better way to worship a 1st century impoverished Middle-Eastern Jewish carpenter, than by bowing to a statue of a dainty, rosy-cheeked, blonde-haired, blue-eyed white European in lavish robes, and long flowing hair. Am I right?
il_340x270.491050432_255t.jpg
Take that up with the Roman Catholics, not with me. If memory serves, statues of Jesus and the Saints are literally nothing more than visual aid to them. As for us Orthodox though, we depict Jesus as He would have looked.

Christ-Pantocrator-6th-century-Mt-Sinai.jpg


Jesus-the-Teacher.jpg
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Except, they're not worshipping a statue or the cross and asking those hunks of plaster or metal or paint or wood for help--if it is, then they've committed a grave sin and need to repent and go to Confession immediately. Rather, they are giving Jesus honor, the same way a soldier salutes the flag of his country. The flag itself isn't being honored or saluted; rather, what it represents and stands for is being honored and saluted. And it certainly isn't being worshipped.

the scriptures reveal Gods view of images for use in worship and his view is not the view you've indicated here.

Please read Acts 7 very carefully and search the scripture for Gods view:

Vs39 Our forefathers refused to obey him, but they pushed him aside and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, 40 saying to Aaron: ‘Make gods for us to go ahead of us. For we do not know what has happened to this Moses, who led us out of the land of Egypt.’ 41 So they made a calf in those days and brought a sacrifice to the idol and began to enjoy themselves in the works of their hands. 42 So God turned away from them and handed them over to offer sacred service to the army of heaven, just as it is written in the book of the Prophets: ‘It was not to me that you made offerings and sacrifices for 40 years in the wilderness, was it, O house of Israel? 43 But it was the tent of Mo′loch and the star of the god Re′phan that you took up, the images that you made to worship them. So I will deport you beyond Babylon.’

I really pray that you can see it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Nero was already dead by the time John wrote Revelation.

So he wouldnt be referring to a dead person. What harm can a dead person do?

\

Nero was emperor from 54 to 68 c.e., whereas Revelations was written around 95 c.e. Nero was the archetype persecutor of the early church, and many believed he would be born again as the "anti-Christ", and this was still believed by many within the early church into the 2nd and 3rd centuries c.e.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
:rolleyes: Really?


You have no idea how he would have looked, by your post and replies.


Cultural anthropology dictates nothing like your pictures.
Oh? And what do you suppose He looked like, if not a swarthy, bearded, olive-skinned Palestinian?
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
the scriptures reveal Gods view of images for use in worship and his view is not the view you've indicated here.

Please read Acts 7 very carefully and search the scripture for Gods view:

I really pray that you can see it.
Do me a favor and go read 1 Kings 7, where Solomon absolutely covers the Temple with images, and God sees fit to dwell in that image-filled Temple. Also, the Ark of the Covenant had statues of cherubim on top, by God's command.

Images are not and have never been a problem. It's what we do with those images that makes the difference.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Except, they're not worshipping a statue or the cross and asking those hunks of plaster or metal or paint or wood for help--if it is, then they've committed a grave sin and need to repent and go to Confession immediately. Rather, they are giving Jesus honor, the same way a soldier salutes the flag of his country. The flag itself isn't being honored or saluted; rather, what it represents and stands for is being honored and saluted. And it certainly isn't being worshipped.


Today---Jesus represents a king sitting on a throne, not a mortal being pegged to a pagan symbol. ( stake, or pole is the correct translation of the greek word stauros---not cross.
The cross = the table of demons--Jesus has 0 to do with it. The great apostasy brought it in.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Nero was emperor from 54 to 68 c.e., whereas Revelations was written around 95 c.e. Nero was the archetype persecutor of the early church, and many believed he would be born again as the "anti-Christ", and this was still believed by many within the early church into the 2nd and 3rd centuries c.e.

christianity doesnt teach that people are literally born again.

So I doubt very much that this is what they thought.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Do me a favor and go read 1 Kings 7, where Solomon absolutely covers the Temple with images, and God sees fit to dwell in that image-filled Temple. Also, the Ark of the Covenant had statues of cherubim on top, by God's command.

Images are not and have never been a problem. It's what we do with those images that makes the difference.

cups, pillars, basins, table, bowls, candle stick holders & lampstands.... c'mon, these were not images of worship.

these were furnishings and decorations on the walls of the temple.

The ark of the covenant was a golden box which housed the book of the law. It wasnt an object of worship for the isrealites.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
christianity doesnt teach that people are literally born again.

So I doubt very much that this is what they thought.

Well: "Christian tradition and secular historical sources hold Nero as the first major state sponsor of Christian persecution, and sometimes as the killer of Apostles Peter and Paul. Some 2nd- and 3rd-century theologians, among others, recorded their belief that Nero would return from death or exile, usually as 'the Anti-Christ. He is also seen as one of the most savage persecutors of Christians.'" -- Nero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, if you can find it, maybe check out "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
cups, pillars, basins, table, bowls, candle stick holders & lampstands.... c'mon, these were not images of worship.

these were furnishings and decorations on the walls of the temple.

The ark of the covenant was a golden box which housed the book of the law. It wasnt an object of worship for the isrealites.

Sorry, I meant 1 Kings 6:

23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. 24 Five cubits was the length of one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the length of the other wing of the cherub; it was ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other. 25 The other cherub also measured ten cubits; both cherubim had the same measure and the same form. 26 The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the other cherub. 27 He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house. And the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one touched the one wall, and a wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; their other wings touched each other in the middle of the house. 28 And he overlaid the cherubim with gold.

29 Around all the walls of the house he carved engraved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms. 30 The floor of the house he overlaid with gold in the inner and outer rooms.

31 For the entrance to the inner sanctuary he made doors of olivewood; the lintel and the doorposts were five-sided.[h] 32 He covered the two doors of olivewood with carvings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. He overlaid them with gold and spread gold on the cherubim and on the palm trees.

33 So also he made for the entrance to the nave doorposts of olivewood, in the form of a square, 34 and two doors of cypress wood. The two leaves of the one door were folding, and the two leaves of the other door were folding. 35 On them he carved cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, and he overlaid them with gold evenly applied on the carved work. 36 He built the inner court with three courses of cut stone and one course of cedar beams.

^Absolutely image-covered Temple, and God sees fit to dwell in it.

Cherubim on the Ark in Exodus 25:
17 “You shall make a mercy seat[c] of pure gold. Two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. 18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. Of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. 20 The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

^God explicitly telling the Hebrews to make statues of Cherubim to put on the Ark.

You're right, these weren't objects of worship. Neither are Christian icons.
 
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