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Are people born inherently atheist?

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Because you dont know it until it happens. It is unseen.
But that just casts it into the past tense and it becomes true (my brother did the right thing), that doesn't change belief. How does it introduce choice?

Knowledge is justified belief but belief is a conviction not necessarily justified.
My point was that knowledge is a type of belief. Belief doesn't suddenly magically change just because it happens to be true. It's still not a choice.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
The kicker is knowledge will always be much smaller than ignorance and hope.

Certain things require faith and belief in our lives be absolutely necessary even if the thing is not the most likely possibility. Vantage point and state of mind will decide if that is perceived as justified.
Everything is smaller than the sphere of ignorance, and hope trumps them all. Right.
 

Khubla

Member
This is silly, everybody is born an atheist, without and pre-conceived opinions about anything. Religion comes through indoctrination.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
This is silly, everybody is born an atheist, without and pre-conceived opinions about anything. Religion comes through indoctrination.

But people are not talking about religion. They're talking about god-belief.

One member (Sonofason) seems to assume that all babies have knowledge of God from their very first breath. Therefore, in his view, all babies are theists.

I think that's his position anyway.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
But that just casts it into the past tense and it becomes true (my brother did the right thing), that doesn't change belief. How does it introduce choice?


My point was that knowledge is a type of belief. Belief doesn't suddenly magically change just because it happens to be true. It's still not a choice.

Just depends if you choose to be pessimistic or optomistic. You dont I know what somebody will do until they do it. You choose to give them the benefit of the doubt or you choose to not. You dont know if you made the right call til it happens. There may be things that make it easier to choose, like the knowledge of your own brother, but it is still a choice when unknowns are involved.

Knowledge isnt a type of belief. Knowledge has to do with having truth while belief is the hope of having truth. Beliefs can be wrong. Knowledge shouldnt be wrong if its really knowledge.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
But that's not what it means to be an atheist.

What it means to be atheist is not believing in a god cause it doesnt exist. How do atheists justify the nonexistence of any god concepts? Why should they be required to justify non-existence? God(s) not existing means we shouldnt even be having this conversation.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Everything is smaller than the sphere of ignorance, and hope trumps them all. Right.

Posts like this make me ask - how is there so much awesome in one person?

I think that truly understanding the vastness of one's ignorance, and humbly accepting it, is an enlightening experience. Brings new spice to life and opens doors. It allows the gaps between perception of reality and pure reality to ever so gently, slowly fade away.

It is the heart of the ongoing process of philosophically/spiritually growing up.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
What it means to be atheist is not believing in a god cause it doesnt exist.
Just so.

How do atheists justify the nonexistence of any god concepts?
Enaidealukal has a number of good posts on this topic.

Why should they be required to justify non-existence? God(s) not existing means we shouldnt even be having this conversation.
They are not required to justify the 'non-existence' of god(s), just to justify their belief in it.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Posts like this make me ask - how is there so much awesome in one person?

I think that truly understanding the vastness of one's ignorance, and humbly accepting it, is an enlightening experience. Brings new spice to life and opens doors. It allows the gaps between perception of reality and pure reality to ever so gently, slowly fade away.

It is the heart of the ongoing process of philosophically/spiritually growing up.
There is a crack,
A crack in everything
That's how the light gets in...
 

Khubla

Member
Let it be remembered that all religions of the world was born in the childhood of our species. Children make religion, Grown-ups create science. A child’s imagination is more active than its power of reasoning. It is easier for it to fancy then to see. It thinks less then it guesses. The wild flight of fancy is checked only by experience. Religion is the science of the child. Science is the religion of the mature. The multitude is ever joined to its idols; let them alone, I speak to the discerning few. I speak to the mature minds who have left their idols, toys, fancies, and childhoods behind.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Let it be remembered that all religions of the world was born in the childhood of our species. Children make religion, Grown-ups create science. A child’s imagination is more active than its power of reasoning. It is easier for it to fancy then to see. It thinks less then it guesses. The wild flight of fancy is checked only by experience. Religion is the science of the child. Science is the religion of the mature. The multitude is ever joined to its idols; let them alone, I speak to the discerning few. I speak to the mature minds who have left their idols, toys, fancies, and childhoods behind.

Preach it, brother! I feel the spirit!
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
What it means to be atheist is not believing in a god cause it doesnt exist. How do atheists justify the nonexistence of any god concepts?
Evidentiary inquiry and/or by showing that essential characteristics of theistic god-concepts are incoherent.

Why should they be required to justify non-existence?
Because in order for a belief to be rational, it needs to be held on a sufficient basis/with adequate warrant- in other words, be justified.

God(s) not existing means we shouldnt even be having this conversation.
Um... What?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Evidentiary inquiry and/or by showing that essential characteristics of theistic god-concepts are incoherent.


Because in order for a belief to be rational, it needs to be held on a sufficient basis/with adequate warrant- in other words, be justified.


Um... What?

Your justifying against a concept that is presented. How is it possible to justify a concept of god not yet heard of or thought of?

A person remains atheist until the day they suddenly believe in a particular god concept. Wouldnt that mean you dont have to come across the notion of god to be atheist? Would seem odd to argue against evidence that doesnt yet exist.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I dont think that religious thought is obsolete but I do feel that with the advancements we have seen that "god" existing is no longer a given.

This is absolutely true. And there is an interesting parallel between this fact and the introduction of the words "atheist" and "atheism" into the English language. Before that time, there was no need of (or much use for) a word for a person who denied there was a God (uppercase G which indicates not only which god we refer to but how monotheists understood every other god).

The origins (historically speaking) of words like "theist" and "deist" was in response to the already existing labels "atheist" and "atheism". In other words, it wasn't until after the introduction of the term "atheism" that there became a need for a term like "theism". Historically speaking, "theist" meant "not atheist" far more than the reverse, as terms like "theist" were introduced into the language later and specifically to distinguish people from atheists.

Today things are different. We don't just have more non-believers, we have more believers in different religions/spiritualties who deny the Abrahamic God yet are religious. It is all the more important today to distinguish between the ways one can deny that God/gods exist. Before, when there were first "deists/theists", it was clear that such labels indicated centrally that one was not an atheist. Today, even if we use a loose definition of theism (i.e., belief in any god), there remain too many diverse ways of not being theistic.



Without someone thinking of a god concept first, there wouldn't ever be anything to reject.

And as there are many ways to deny gods exist, there is a need to distinguish the ways in which one does or does not do this. The reason for words like atheism, agnosticism, deism, polytheism, neopaganism, etc., is because there remain lots of worldviews that are different but religious, and lots of worldviews that are not religious but different nonetheless.

To subsume all who don't believe in any deity under the label "atheism", and further to include among such non-believers those who are incapable of belief, doesn't reflect modern culture or the far greater number of non-believers.


The rise of naturalism makes even a pantheist concept look more like atheism.

Which is one of the reasons it is not only pointless, but actually problematic to define atheism so broadly. Apart from the problems of calling all those who believe in gods "theists", we are saying that all of the falling have similar enough worldviews to be categorized as "atheists"

1) Infants
2) Animists
3) People who have never been exposed to the concept of "god"
4) People who believe there is likely a god or something similar but are not sure
5) People who have almost never thought about whether god or gods exist
6) People who have spent years reading theological and philosophical literature, years thinking about arguments for and against belief, and have decided that there is good reason not to believe in any god
7) Shamanists
etc.


And to define what they are not (theists), to include
1) deists who are called this specifically to distinguish themselves from theists
2) Pantheists who don't call themselves theists
3) Polytheists who define "theism" as it has traditionally been defined
4) People who believe use as their pantheon (which they treat as existent in a sense that is hard to describe) the pantheon from Tolkien's stories about middle earth
5) People who call humans "gods" if they have a particular state of mind and worldview without any supernatural beliefs
etc.


We can actually see how futile and useless it is define atheism as anyone who doesn't believe in anything they call gods (even infants). We have go then talk about "strong atheists" vs. "weak atheists" or categories of atheism to describe beliefs about gods for which we already have terms (like agnosticism). Strong atheism, positive atheism, & explicit atheism are all terms which are basically all identical. Even worse, it is not clear how we should treat their opposites (weak atheism, negative atheism, & implicit atheism) in relation to agnosticism, infidelism, nihilism, materialism, skepticism, etc.

In a world of increasingly diverse non-believers and spiritualties/religions, how does it make any sense at all to extend the definition of atheism (and theism) to make it more difficult to communicate what one's position is?

Unless atheists want to argue that theists are presenting an actual existing concept. Theists believe a concept of deity to exist but, by virtue of that belief, also have faith that all other concepts of god are not real and are fabrications even.
The concept of god is particular to each individual, and to the extent it is not (i.e., the way we can understand one another because our conceptions of the word are similar enough), atheists (at least as generally defined) have exactly the same concept.

However when atheists do not believe in a concept they are really saying that the concept of god, no matter which theist presents it, is pure fabrication or wishful thinking.

Not according to those advocate that an atheist is defined solely and wholly as "not a theist". Infants are certainly not saying that no matter what concept of god a theist has, it is fabrication. Neither are most people who are "not theists" because this includes agnostics, those who don't know about any concept of god, those who don't care, those who don't deny what some theists believe in simply that these things (like the sun) aren't gods, etc.

In fact, it only defines the only type of atheism that matters: the one that constitutes a denial of all gods.


If we are truly in a world without god(s) then there is not and never was anything to reject.

There is: the belief that gods exist.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Your justifying against a concept that is presented. How is it possible to justify a concept of god not yet heard of or thought of?

A person remains atheist until the day they suddenly believe in a particular god concept. Wouldnt that mean you dont have to come across the notion of god to be atheist? Would seem odd to argue against evidence that doesnt yet exist.

There is no reason why anyone would have to "justify against" a concept that is not presented.

A person isn't atheist or theist until there's something to believe.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I've already asked you at least once before when you've made this claim to start a thread on the subject, or post to an existing thread on a closely-related subject, as I'd love to disabuse you of this idea but don't want to do it on a thread about a largely unrelated topic...

What are you talking about? This entire debate has been about nothing other than a proper definition for atheist. My comment applies here just as much as much as every other comment on this thread, if not more so.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
No, You and Artie are wrong. It does not work. the inclusion of infants is both arbitrary and unnecessary. While there is plenty of insistence that babies are atheists, there is little reasoning for the inclusion. On the other hand there is plenty of reasons why babies should not be considered atheists or theists.

Your opinion adds little to the facts of the matter. There are no certain instances where babies are atheists. If you think there is, I'd like to see you evidence, since thus far you haven't provided any whatsoever. And I am the only person so far to state the fact that it is highly possible for all infants to be theists.
 
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