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Are people born inherently atheist?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The only problem I have with this answer is that you use definitive language when speaking of the beliefs of a child.

True. That's why I was careful to note that words refer to concepts, not that they are concepts. I have indicated more than once in this thread that definitions must to depend upon words because there never exists a bijective mapping between synonymous lexemes in distinct languages. Even modern languages clearly related (e.g., Germanic languages) and for words with the same etymology, such as god and Gott, there is significant semantic overlap but there is not identity.

If a child saw a computer, it would develop some basic concept of a computer.
The capacity to form concepts without language is extremely limited. Concepts are categories. The concept "computer" is an abstraction that does not refer to any specific computer yet refers to all computers. Perceptual experience cannot allow for the creation of such an abstraction. In general, there is still much debate over what aspects/properties/components of various objects of various types are more central to classification of some instantiation of some object as belonging to category x vs. y. A saw is an abstract concept. There are many different kinds of saws that come in different sizes and are used in different ways (e.g., a chainsaw vs. the saw one would find in a swiss army knife). What is it about saws that make us classify them as saws, yet not do so for objects with similar features (such as serrations on a bread knife or combat dagger/double-edged tactical knife)? Concepts are categories with vague boundaries and usually with more than one prototypical exemplar.

The perceptual experience a baby has when viewing a particular computer is no more salient in the construction of a concept than is the perceptual experience of looking at a TV screen or even a picture. Concepts are not created through primarily through experience but through language. In fact, it is impossible for there to exist anything like the representational range of concepts the human processing system is capable of without language. Perceptual categorization without language requires greater similarity between members in a category and fewer categories. By fewer, I mean that for a cognitive system capable of conceptual processing but not of language categories are either very specific (usually because they are salient to everyday experiences such as "food") or very general (usually because they aren't important). Even more important, the concept of "self" isn't just like any other abstract concept. It allows perceptual experience to be interpreted as consciously subjectively and thus distinguishing between the experience of the perception and the awareness of the perception.

It is extremely difficult for cognitive systems (from computational intelligence programs to canines) to categorize and impossible for any cognitive system without a brain to process concepts. Without language to describe the functions, similarities, and features that make up the various instantiations of "computer" to be conceptualized as "computer" rather than TV, calculator, or even window? What is it that a pre-linguistic understands that allows distinct perceptual experiences to be classified as instances of the concept "computer" yet not others?

Nothing. They can't do it.


It may not be very accurate, but a basic concept would begin to form.
All concepts are basic. They are categories we use to categorize and structure are sensorimotor and conscious cognitive processes. The only thing that can make a concept more "basic" is the subjectively salient experiences of similar sensorimotor experiences (like "pain" or "taste").


It is not likely that if the baby also experienced God, that it would confuse the computer and the God as if they were one and the same thing.
It is not likely that a pre-linguistic baby can distinguish between features of any given perceptual experience into any clear distinct categories. That would require concepts, and these build up over time as abstractions away and apart from specific experiences. It is essential to the development of concepts that experience is no longer consciously understood as related in any way to the category that instantiations can then be understood as conceptual representatives of.


They are capable of cognition.

So are mice.

I think when we don't know something, it is best to refrain from using such definitive language.
What is it that we don't know?
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? This entire debate has been about nothing other than a proper definition for atheist.
Right, which is why I hesitate to derail it with a discussion regarding evidence for atheism/the existence of God- there are no lack of threads on the subject here (they probably outnumber any other thread topic handily), and I doubt those who are interested in the present discussion would appreciate this thread getting turned into yet one more. Post to an existing thread on the subject, and I'll join you.

Evidence. Why not show evidence for your opinion? I know why you haven't. I know why you won't. Here is another opportunity for you to show why infants can't be theists. Evidence.
Theism is a cognitive, epistemic position which requires, at a bare minimum, comprehension of the essential truth-claims of some variety of theism, which in turn require at least a bare minimum of linguistic competence. If infants are not born with this linguistic competence, as surely it is clear they are not, then they cannot be theists. Pretty simple, really. And by the same token, infants are not born atheists either, since by "atheism" I understand "theism is false"- also a cognitive, epistemic position which requires an understanding of theism.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Like it or not, on eis either a theist of some degree, or one is not a theist.


You sound more like some degree of theist, then not.


The definition of atheist is very diverse, but we cannot deny implicit atheism

But zero is a degree. So an atheist is just a degree of theist. :rolleyes:
 
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Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
Like it or not, on eis either a theist of some degree, or one is not a theist.


You sound more like some degree of theist, then not.


The definition of atheist is very diverse, but we cannot deny implicit atheism

Why is it that the definition for theism is set in stone as "anyone who is not atheist" but the definition of atheism is "very diverse?" That seems to be a bit of a double standard IMHO.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
No, a theist is a theist and that's the end of it. You can bring up any possible entity in the world that a theist may or may not believe in, and so long as a person believes in at least one God, he will be called a theist. He is not an atheist about this or that. He is a theist because of his belief in at least one God. Another red herring.
The point was to say that if being a strong atheist and disbelieving in the existence of all gods is absurd then being a Christian and disbelieving in the existence of all gods except one is hardly any less absurd.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
My Lord doesn't command me to be polite. He commands that I love others, do unto others as I would have them do unto me, and to tell the truth always. If that should lead to something that you consider polite, then so be it. If not, so be it.
Why would he need to command you to do something moral people do automatically?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Why would people be moral automatically if morality is a choice?
Morality isn't a choice. One can choose to behave according to the moral standards of the society one lives in. Moral people would do so automatically. Moral people wouldn't need to be commanded to be moral.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Prove that statement. To do this, you will first have to prove that infants don't experience anything at all. Your move.

If you find any links to any scientific papers or studies which conclusively show that newborn human beings are cognitively developed and conscious enough to form, hold, and understand abstract beliefs, such as belief in gods, I'd be more than happy to read them. Until then, your conjecture that infants are capable of belief in gods is baseless and unevidenced.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
:facepalm:


Sure. By "atheism " I understand "theism is false": and it should be relatively uncontroversial that infants and other non-linguistic humans (as well as animals and inanimate objects) neither understand the truth claims of theism, nor the semantic notion of falsity, and can be neither atheists nor theists.

As we've pointed out ad naseum now, this is NOT a dispute over any "matter of fact", this is a dispute over definitions. So tell me, what is gained by defining atheism as mere lack of theistic belief, such that the term "atheist" applies to atheists proper, agnostics, non-theists of all sorts including even animals and inanimate objects? :confused: This would seem to make the term ambiguous beyond any practical use (and then we're obliged to make all sorts of distinctions between "weak", "strong", "implicit, "positive", "negative" atheism and so on). Why not define atheism as it has been defined for centuries- as the principled rejection of theism- such that atheism and agnosticism do not overlap (when they are often mutually exclusive), we are not using the same term to describe the intellectual, critical position of, e.g. Nietzsche, that we use to describe the non-position of your dog? :shrug:

Ok, I'll buy that.

I would still assert that I do not "reject" theism as philosophical rationale, per se....

...I simply do not "believe" that "religious faith" offers any insights into "truth".

Atheists are still the annoying and difficult to satisfy flies upon the wall...

"Don't tell me or "testify"...just SHOW Me..."

and...they can not.

To me, it's really as simple as that.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
All atheists have zero information to support a belief that no God exists.

Wow.

How painfully dumb is that to say/claim?

If I claim that invisible radioactive rabbits infiltrate your bedroom nightly, and are slowly killing you in your sleep...

...how would you manage to provide "information" to the contrary?

Anything? Hmmmm?

Maybe... just maybe...the burdens of "proof" yet remain upon the claimants, and not the skeptics? I don't believe your faith-based claims to represent fact.

It's that simple... I promise :)

It is often said that a DA can indict a ham sandwich in a judicial hearing or Grand Jury.

You win. The ham sandwich is GUILTY!

Either the sandwich will confess a personal guilt, or it's on to the systematic and droning jury of peers...
Your turn now as prosecution. PROVE the ham sandwich is guilty!!!

Just know that it is also your burden to provide any and all exculpatory evidences that indicate that the sandwich had neither motive, means, nor opportunity to murder (nor disprove as existent) any claimed deity.

I'll bet on the ham sandwich...

...with ZERO information "to support a belief that no God exists".
 
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