God's take on nudity

[Sunstone]

First, it isn't God who said anything about nudity...

Granted, but I don't think that changes much. At least not for the millions of people who for one reason or another, arrive at the notion that God condemns or at least frowns upon nudity.

To me, it's a serious, albeit minor, problem with our society that we do not accept nudity and that many of us find a justification for it in religion.

Second, nakedness MIGHT be a symbol (I believe the story symbolic)of shame that they disobeyed God.

I think that's plausible.

 

[nazz]

Granted, but I don't think that changes much. At least not for the millions of people who for one reason or another, arrive at the notion that God condemns or at least frowns upon nudity.

why would he frown on it when he supposedly created all living things naked? If anything he's a big fan of nudity. It's humans who take issue with it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

why would he frown on it when he supposedly created all living things naked? If anything he's a big fan of nudity. It's humans who take issue with it.

(Psst - all things that "god" has an issue with, is really humans having an issue with them.)

 

[nazz]

(Psst - all things that "god" has an issue with, is really humans having an issue with them.)

I'd agree to a large degree

 

[Colubro]

why would he frown on it when he supposedly created all living things naked? If anything he's a big fan of nudity. It's humans who take issue with it.

If god knows everything, then he would have known humans would take issue with nudity. If he can do anything and values nudity, then he could cause all clothes to disappear.

 

[ChristineES]

If you feel strongly about this, then do something other than post in a message board. Start by creating a community group to help rid this society of its phobia towards nudity.

We have to choose our fights. Right now, I am more into autism, as it effects two of my three children. Nudity isn't quite so high on my list.

 

[nazz]

If god knows everything, then he would have known humans would take issue with nudity. If he can do anything and values nudity, then he could cause all clothes to disappear.

yeah, so?

 

[Ingledsva]

Some Gnostic groups believed this incident was actually about sex. Partaking of the "tree in the center of the garden." Tree representing the penis, and the garden has always stood for female sex organs.

Some of them believe Eve had sex with the Serpent, conceiving Cain, then had sex with Adam conceiving Abel; thus fraternal twins.

Source? This Gnostic has not heard such before.

To address the OP your interpretation is off as you are reading something into the story that is not really there. Consciousness of nudity was not one of the punishments the god imposed (the punishments come later in the story). Rather it was simply a result of their eyes being opened. In other words they went from childlike innocence to self-consciousness of their nakedness.

My source? Much reading; and the fact that you as a Gnostic haven't heard of it makes me wonder.

This basic article is good enough to give you the basics.

Serpent seed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You might also read the books of Professor of Religion Elaine Pagels - ADAM, EVE, and the SERPENT - THE GNOSTIC GOSPELS - THE JOHANNINE GOSPEL IN GNOSTIC EXEGESIS - THE GNOSTIC PAUL, etc.

They are very interesting.

*

 

[Colubro]

yeah, so?

Likewise, if God is real and has an issue with dogs being nude, he could - in one second - cause all dogs to become clothed.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'd guess that in a way clothes are something we have in common with God. God cannot be touched or seen, and perhaps clothes (and some other social limitations) were put in place to remind Jews of that. (Muslims & Christians & Bahai's too?) I don't know all the reasons.

The practical problems with nudity for people in the world in general is that its not appropriate for all situations, people aren't used to it, and it may not be hygienic for many people for various reasons. Clothes also act as a form of communication and as a way of setting personal boundaries and protect us from injuries and environmental conditions.

 

[Sunstone]

Clothes also act as a form of communication and as a way of setting personal boundaries and protect us from injuries and environmental conditions.

Those are excellent point, Brick, and clothes also create sexy looks.

 

[ChristineES]

Why did people start wearing clothes in the first place? To protect us from the elements- sun, wind, rain, etc.

 

[Sunstone]

Why did people start wearing clothes in the first place? To protect us from the elements- sun, wind, rain, etc.

Yup! About 70,000 years ago, we began wearing clothing in order to protect us from the exceptionally cold weather the earth was having back then. Or so I've been told.

 

[nazz]

My source? Much reading; and the fact that you as a Gnostic haven't heard of it makes me wonder.

This basic article is good enough to give you the basics.

Serpent seed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You might also read the books of Professor of Religion Elaine Pagels - ADAM, EVE, and the SERPENT - THE GNOSTIC GOSPELS - THE JOHANNINE GOSPEL IN GNOSTIC EXEGESIS - THE GNOSTIC PAUL, etc.

They are very interesting.

*

First off, no need to wonder. I assure you the label "Gnostic" fits me quite well. Both in the sense that I highly value the pursuit of knowledge and also because my ideas are generally in line with the thought of the ancient Gnostics. But I will admit to being somewhat ignorant of Gnostic scriptures as I find them dense and ponderous.

Regarding the Serpent Seed doctrine let's be totally clear this is a modern racist perversion of Christianity even if there is a casual connection to ancient Gnostic writings. Cain himself is not always seen as a negative figure in Gnostic thought as there was an entire Gnostic group called the Cainites.

I did do a quick scan of the Gospel of Philip and found this:

First, adultery came into being, afterward murder. And he was begotten in adultery, for he was the child of the Serpent. So he became a murderer, just like his father, and he killed his brother. Indeed, every act of sexual intercourse which has occurred between those unlike one another is adultery.

Is it this to which you refer or is there more?

It's important to note that the Serpent was viewed by many Gnostics as an agent of the Holy Spirit, so again a positive figure in Gnosticism. Some texts, such as the Hypostasis of the Archons state that Eve actually transformed herself into a tree to escape being raped by the Archons and later into the Serpent. Some Gnostics texts state it was the Demiurge who raped Eve.

Thanks for the reading references. I am familiar with some of those.

 

[challupa]

Clothes are real necessary where I come from. If God zapped my ski jacket, I'd be real ******!

Maybe it's symbolic that we only need covering if we have something to hide? Clothes hide our true image? And, sometimes that's a good thing...

 

[Colubro]

We have to choose our fights. Right now, I am more into autism, as it effects two of my three children. Nudity isn't quite so high on my list.

Fixing autism requires medical research. Fixing issues with nudity requires social work.

 

[Colubro]

Why did people start wearing clothes in the first place? To protect us from the elements- sun, wind, rain, etc.

That's probably true. But why did they start wearing clothes in situations where protecting oneself from the elements wasn't necessary?

 

[Ingledsva]

My source? Much reading; and the fact that you as a Gnostic haven't heard of it makes me wonder.

This basic article is good enough to give you the basics.

Serpent seed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You might also read the books of Professor of Religion Elaine Pagels - ADAM, EVE, and the SERPENT - THE GNOSTIC GOSPELS - THE JOHANNINE GOSPEL IN GNOSTIC EXEGESIS - THE GNOSTIC PAUL, etc.

They are very interesting.

First off, no need to wonder. I assure you the label "Gnostic" fits me quite well. Both in the sense that I highly value the pursuit of knowledge and also because my ideas are generally in line with the thought of the ancient Gnostics. But I will admit to being somewhat ignorant of Gnostic scriptures as I find them dense and ponderous.

Regarding the Serpent Seed doctrine let's be totally clear this is a modern racist perversion of Christianity even if there is a casual connection to ancient Gnostic writings. Cain himself is not always seen as a negative figure in Gnostic thought as there was an entire Gnostic group called the Cainites.

Just how do you figure this? This idea of sex with the Serpent goes back into the Jewish writings - for instance -

Talmud (Yebamoth 103b) ‘ rabbi Johanan stated. When the serpent copulated with Eve, he infused her with lust.'

- and Cain and his offspring have always played the evil "other" role in the Tanakh.

However, in later Gnostic writings the Serpent events are seen as necessary for enlightenment and life. Every good myth has a Trickster.

I did do a quick scan of the Gospel of Philip and found this:

First, adultery came into being, afterward murder. And he was begotten in adultery, for he was the child of the Serpent. So he became a murderer, just like his father, and he killed his brother. Indeed, every act of sexual intercourse which has occurred between those unlike one another is adultery.

Is it this to which you refer or is there more?

Much, much, more - And far older.

Just Google it and start reading the texts.

It's important to note that the Serpent was viewed by many Gnostics as an agent of the Holy Spirit, so again a positive figure in Gnosticism. Some texts, such as the Hypostasis of the Archons state that Eve actually transformed herself into a tree to escape being raped by the Archons and later into the Serpent. Some Gnostics texts state it was the Demiurge who raped Eve.

Yes, I have read this type of version in later texts.


This sex with the Serpent idea probably came about very early. You have to remember that the word for Serpent - is also the word for a Sorcerer (the trickster in the story .)


Gen 3:13 … And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Can also be translated –

And the woman said, The Sorcerer seduced me, and I did burn/partake.


Thanks for the reading references. I am familiar with some of those.

You are welcome. Those are only a couple. I listed Pagels as she has an actual book on the subject, with many listed sources.


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[Pegg]

For some reason god makes a pretty big deal of nudity. In fact, he brings up the issue at the very outset of the Bible, devoting a whole verse to it.

Genesis 2:25 (NLT)
25 Now the man and his wife were both naked, but they felt no shame.
​

Okay, but so what? It appears to be no bigger of a deal than saying

Now the man and his wife both pooped, but they felt no shame.
​

As it turns out this is just a set-up for what follows. Seems this man and his wife crossed god, and were disciplined in part by the infliction of shame for being nude.

Genesis 3:6-7 (NLT)
6 The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. 7 At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.
​

So my question is, what is it in the nature of nudity that allows it to be regarded as absolutely shameless in one arena of humanity, but is convertible to one of shame in another arena?

great topic for discussion.

I dont see the same conclusion that you are seeing from the bible account though.

If you noticed in the account, Adam and Eve were the ones who decided they were naked and it was themselves who felt shame at it. After they had sewn fig leaves to cover themsevles, God came along and asked them why they had done that.

their own reply was that they were naked and needed to be hid.

So the question is why did disobedience to God lead them to conclude that they were naked? Obviously God created them that way and never before that time did they feel the need to cover up. If God thought their nakedness was bad, why not cover them up earlier. And ask yourself why ALL the animal creation are naked and continue to be naked.

If it was Gods doing, then why not cover the genitals of every living creature?

According to the story there is no connection to how one regards their physical self, and a mistake made in a totally other matter. It makes no more sense than if, after the two had taken a bite of the apple, god made man and his wife feel ashamed of eating food in front of one another---actually, this might even be a bit more logical.

Why do you say God made them feel ashamed? Only they could have done that to themselves because shame is something that come from within us.

We usually feel shame when we do what we know to be wrong, right?
Children hide from their parents when they do something bad...and they try to hide the evidence of what they did long before their parents might find out about it.

So its illogical to say that it was God who made them feel ashamed. That could only have come from themselves.

All the other woes god heaped upon the two and the generations to follow were certainly enough to make his point: "Don't cross me." So why add this little innocuous "punishment"--"I'll invest them with the sense of shame for their unclothed bodies"--- and make such a big deal out of it? After all, before the apple incident nudity was a good (not bad) thing, just like pine trees and tapioca pudding.
It's like god opened a dictionary at random and without looking plunked his finger down on the word "nudity" and said, "So it's going to be nudity. Okey Dokey."

Who made a big deal out of the nudity? Wasn't it Adam and Eve themselves? Were'nt they the ones who went and hid behind the bushes and covered themselves?

Why do you think it was God who did that???

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Likewise, if God is real and has an issue with dogs being nude, he could - in one second - cause all dogs to become clothed.

God does neither the ridiculous nor the insane. God gave animals all the covering they need. His power is never extended to doing the stupid.

Even the Victorians who covered the legs of tables through false modesty and covered the Gaze of pictures when they undressed, had no issues with seeing naked cats, dogs or horses perform in public.