God's take on nudity

[Sunstone]

Did they put forth a hypothesis or model of the evolutionary process which would have brought this about?

I seem to recall they do, but if so, I'm forgetful of the details now. But if I'm not entirely forgetful, it is somehow tied into the fact that males who lived in groups in which males were closely bonded with other males not only had the advantage that they were getting into fewer dangerous contests over sexual access to females (and thus tending to survive to reproduce relatively more often), but they might also have had advantages stemming from the fact their group could defeat (by virtue of theirs being a tight, cohesive group) other groups they were competing with for resources and territory.

But don't quote me to the authorities on this. I've probably got it wrong.

 

[Falvlun]

I think there's a lot of truth to that notion, and a whole lot of evidence for it, but that it's not an explanation of how things truly got started down that path. That is, I don't think someone sat down one day and made the brilliant (and accurate) connection between how controlling people's sexuality makes it easier to control people in other ways, too.

How do you think that works? I have accepted this theory in the past, but thinking on it now, I'm not sure I'm getting the connection.

How does saying "Thou aren't allowed to have sex unless you are married" translate to a person accepting other forms of control.

To be clear, I can see how this can be a display of power. I can see why people would accept the command to not have sex until marriage, if it comes from a religious figure, since after all, they can't just blow it off, since their eternal soul may be at stake. Religion in itself is a relatively easy way to control people.

I believe your suspicions are spot on. Frazier, in his famous work, The Golden Bough, of which I've only read the 700 page summary (the original runs to 11 volumes), gives example upon example (hence, a goodly part of the 11 volumes) of taboos against free and frank sexual expression. Reading one after another example of such taboos eventually will give a person the impression that such things are not merely cultural, but are so deeply embedded in us that they must surely be instinctual, O Lemur of Many Profound Thoughts! Well, they either must give you that impression or else you fell asleep while reading.

Again, I have read biologists and other scientists who, noting how ubiquitous such taboos are, feel that there must be an instinctual explanation for them.

So, the brilliant insight that it is easier to control someone if you first approach it as a matter of controlling his or her sexuality, might not have been something anyone came up with out of the blue, but rather stumbled upon.

Make any sense?

Holy huge book!

Interesting. I honestly didn't consider the possibility that these taboos were inherent.

You certainly don't see many children self-conscious about which parts of their bodies are showing. Any such modesty appears to be wholly taught. Though I suppose it may not be something that really kicks in until puberty.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

How do you think that works? I have accepted this theory in the past, but thinking on it now, I'm not sure I'm getting the connection.

How does saying "Thou aren't allowed to have sex unless you are married" translate to a person accepting other forms of control.

To be clear, I can see how this can be a display of power. I can see why people would accept the command to not have sex until marriage, if it comes from a religious figure, since after all, they can't just blow it off, since their eternal soul may be at stake. Religion in itself is a relatively easy way to control people.



Holy huge book!

Interesting. I honestly didn't consider the possibility that these taboos were inherent.

You certainly don't see many children self-conscious about which parts of their bodies are showing. Any such modesty appears to be wholly taught. Though I suppose it may not be something that really kicks in until puberty.

I walk around naked all the time when i'm home, my parents made me start wearing pants to do it when i turned 13, so now I just walk around in boxers. But I see no shame in it, but society certainly does.

 

[Sunstone]

Holy huge book!

Tell me about it! It's also boring as sin. Frazier never created a brief, simple sentence in his whole life that he failed to edit into a full paragraph. But it's my fault I had to read it for having minored in Comparative Religious Studies.

Interesting. I honestly didn't consider the possibility that these taboos were inherent.

There's a lot of things you've never considered that you should. Such as marrying me. That's one of them. A big one of them!

Oh! The joys of making fun of myself! I'm just insufferable.

You certainly don't see many children self-conscious about which parts of their bodies are showing. Any such modesty appears to be wholly taught. Though I suppose it may not be something that really kicks in until puberty.

Interesting point! Thanks! As you might know, one model of how instincts work posits that they kick in at various ages, then have only a limited time in which they must be acted on, or they do not turn into habits of action. For instinct (pun intended): an instinct might kick in at puberty. If it is not acted upon in the next few years, say, often enough to become a habit or attitude, then it most likely never will (Or if it does, it won't become as deeply rooted in one's emotions).

 

[nazz]

Some Gnostic groups believed this incident was actually about sex. Partaking of the "tree in the center of the garden." Tree representing the penis, and the garden has always stood for female sex organs.

Some of them believe Eve had sex with the Serpent, conceiving Cain, then had sex with Adam conceiving Abel; thus fraternal twins.

*

Source? This Gnostic has not heard such before.

To address the OP your interpretation is off as you are reading something into the story that is not really there. Consciousness of nudity was not one of the punishments the god imposed (the punishments come later in the story). Rather it was simply a result of their eyes being opened. In other words they went from childlike innocence to self-consciousness of their nakedness.

 

[Sunstone]

Interesting point! Thanks! As you might know, one model of how instincts work posits that they kick in at various ages, then have only a limited time in which they must be acted on, or they do not turn into habits of action. For instinct (pun intended): an instinct might kick in at puberty. If it is not acted upon in the next few years, say, often enough to become a habit or attitude, then it most likely never will (Or if it does, it won't become as deeply rooted in one's emotions).

I walk around naked all the time when i'm home, my parents made me start wearing pants to do it when i turned 13, so now I just walk around in boxers. But I see no shame in it, but society certainly does.

Aversion to nudity might be an example of an evolving instinct that is not yet very strong in us. I very strongly doubt that, but it's only had about 70,000 to arise. That's how long, according to some, we've been wearing clothing.

At any rate, there is a clear distinction to me between nudity and sex. But I recognize most people in America don't routinely make that distinction.

 

[Colubro]

For some reason god makes a pretty big deal of nudity. In fact, he brings up the issue at the very outset of the Bible, devoting a whole verse to it.

Genesis 2:25 (NLT)
25 Now the man and his wife were both naked, but they felt no shame.
​

Okay, but so what? It appears to be no bigger of a deal than saying

Now the man and his wife both pooped, but they felt no shame.
​

As it turns out this is just a set-up for what follows. Seems this man and his wife crossed god, and were disciplined in part by the infliction of shame for being nude.

Genesis 3:6-7 (NLT)
6 The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. 7 At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.
​

So my question is, what is it in the nature of nudity that allows it to be regarded as absolutely shameless in one arena of humanity, but is convertible to one of shame in another arena? According to the story there is no connection to how one regards their physical self, and a mistake made in a totally other matter. It makes no more sense than if, after the two had taken a bite of the apple, god made man and his wife feel ashamed of eating food in front of one another---actually, this might even be a bit more logical.

All the other woes god heaped upon the two and the generations to follow were certainly enough to make his point: "Don't cross me." So why add this little innocuous "punishment"--"I'll invest them with the sense of shame for their unclothed bodies"--- and make such a big deal out of it? After all, before the apple incident nudity was a good (not bad) thing, just like pine trees and tapioca pudding.
It's like god opened a dictionary at random and without looking plunked his finger down on the word "nudity" and said, "So it's going to be nudity. Okey Dokey."

To me, nudity just isn't that crucial to the human race and its ongoing operation to single it out as god has done. What has been accomplished by turning something once considered good into something now considered bad? Obviously, nudity wasn't originally destined to be bad, so intrinsically it isn't, yet god decided to change all that.

Some people do feel ashamed of their naked bodies (god's plan is working) but some---whole societies in a few cases---don't (god's plan has failed). So what is accomplished?


Any suggestions or insight into god's reasoning?

It's somewhat suspicious that God remains very quiet on this issue.

 

[ChristineES]

Let's think about this. When I was stationed in Italy, I watched, on occasion, Italian TV shows. They showed breasts regularly on their channels and in commercials. Little girls didn't wear tops at the beach and some of the women went topless as well. In America, breasts have been sexualized to the degree where people actually get offended by breastfeeding. People got all up in arms when Janet Jackson's had her "wardrobe malfunction", and her breast was flashed for a split second. I personally thought they overreacted.

In other words, it all has to do what is acceptable in society. If women had been breastfeeding in public 100 years ago here, then maybe it wouldn't be so taboo now. Besides, walking around naked is downright uncomfortable and kind of awkward when no one else is doing it.

 

[Colubro]

Let's think about this. When I was stationed in Italy, I watched, on occasion, Italian TV shows. They showed breasts regularly on their channels and in commercials. Little girls didn't wear tops at the beach and some of the women went topless as well. In America, breasts have been sexualized to the degree where people actually get offended by breastfeeding. People got all up in arms when Janet Jackson's had her "wardrobe malfunction", and her breast was flashed for a split second. I personally thought they overreacted.

In other words, it all has to do what is acceptable in society. If women had been breastfeeding in public 100 years ago here, then maybe it wouldn't be so taboo now. Besides, walking around naked is downright uncomfortable and kind of awkward when no one else is doing it.

The taboo of nudity is society created. Other animals don't seem to have any issues with nudity. Even humans in nudist colonies don't have issues with nudity. We were all born nude. If we just remained nude, we would probably grow up without thinking there was anything wrong with nudity. And people would have a healthier understanding and respect of the human body.

 

[ChristineES]

The taboo of nudity is society created. Other animals don't seem to have any issues with nudity. Even humans in nudist colonies don't have issues with nudity. We were all born nude. If we just remained nude, we would probably grow up without thinking there was anything wrong with nudity. And people would have a healthier understanding and respect of the human body.

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to get across.

 

[Sunstone]

People got all up in arms when Janet Jackson's had her "wardrobe malfunction", and her breast was flashed for a split second. I personally thought they overreacted.

After that incident, the FCC received nearly 540,000 complaints from Americans. The And even the comparable Canadian Agency actually received some complaints, although it had no jurisdiction over the broadcast.

In other words, it all has to do what is acceptable in society.

Go tell that to the Japanese, Christine! Co-ed, public baths. And even in some areas there might still be co-ed restrooms.

The public baths in ancient Rome, by the way, were nearly as co-ed. One end of the main pool was for men, the other end of the same pool was for women, and only a rope divided them.

Neither an aversion to nudity, nor an association of nudity with sex, in my opinion, are instinctual to humans.

 

[Sunstone]

Even humans in nudist colonies don't have issues with nudity. We were all born nude.

The first time I went to a nudist resort was the first time in my life I went nude in public. It took me less than two hours to become flawlessly comfortable with it.

Friends of mine have had similar experiences.

 

[Sunstone]

... people would have a healthier understanding and respect of the human body.

At least three scientific studies of going nude in public bear out your remarks. And one of those studies found public nudity associated with higher self-esteem, more positive body image, and greater self-confidence in young women especially. It fact, it seemed to benefit them more than any other group.

I've never found a scientific study that suggested public nudity had any negative effects on people.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The first time I went to a nudist resort was the first time in my life I went nude in public. It took me less than two hours to become flawlessly comfortable with it.

Friends of mine have had similar experiences.

A short time at a nude beach or resort is the quickest way to really experience the gulf between nudity and sex, apart from all the other social, psychological, and emotion benefits most people get from the experience.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

At least three scientific studies of going nude in public bear out your remarks. And one of those studies found public nudity associated with higher self-esteem, more positive body image, and greater self-confidence in young women especially. It fact, it seemed to benefit them more than any other group.

I've never found a scientific study that suggested public nudity had any negative effects on people.

Yeah, what you said.

 

[Colubro]

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to get across.

If you feel strongly about this, then do something other than post in a message board. Start by creating a community group to help rid this society of its phobia towards nudity.

 

[Sunstone]

If you feel strongly about this, then do something other than post in a message board. Start by creating a community group to help rid this society of its phobia towards nudity.

What sort of activism do you yourself take part in?

 

[Sunstone]

Nudity reminds us that we are very much animals. Clothes seperate us from the rest of the animal world. By being ashamed of our animal nature, we are acknowledging that we are no longer feeling (just feeling) in harmony with the Garden of Paradise. It takes a lot to get past that flaming sword and crucify ourselves on that other tree.

In distinction from Skwim, I've heard that point of view before.

 

[Colubro]

What sort of activism do you yourself take part in?

PM me and I'll tell you about it.

 

[Father Heathen]

They believe a snake can conceive with a human?

No more strange than believing that a snake can talk, or that a virgin can give birth.