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Jesus and the Problem of Evil

John Martin

Active Member
Windwalker is right.

It is an image you are making.

I also would think in the lines of Windwalker: The concepts of 'the Son of God' and the Son of Man' need to be interpreted. For me the Son of Man is one who is united with the whole of humanity and of creation and represents the whole of creation before God. The Son of God is one who speaks to humanity and creation in the name of God. He is the mediator between God and creation and between creation and God. The Son of Man and The Son of God is like a trunk of tree. There is only one trunk, that embraces all the branches and the leaves. Every leaf( a son of God or a daughter of God) has the possibility to grow into the consciousness of a trunk. A son of God or a daughter of God has to grow into the Son of God or the Daughter of God'. Finally the Son of God or the Daughter of God has the possibility to realize that 'the Father(roots) and I are one'. Finally Jesus is the whole truth, the whole. Just as a every leaf comes from the tree everyone is the manifestation of God. Every leaf has the possibility to realize being the tree. Jesus had done it and everyone can do that.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am not spouting church doctrine.
Sure you are. The beauty of indoctrination is that you think it's your thoughts. Welcome to the program.

The main mystery revealed in the scriptures is that the Son is the second Person of the Godhead who became flesh to be the second Adam and save mankind from sin.
Well then, there is no mystery. You know what it is. My point, exactly. There is no mystery for you, and it does not serve you as such then.

The term God the Son may not be there word for word, but the theme of this truth permeates the scriptures
Well, so does what I say. What makes you right then? You say the Bible needs to say it explicitly, and yet here is an example of a double-standard you're applying in your favor. I keep thinking one of these days the light of self-reflection may shine upon you. One keeps thinking....

and anyone with their eyes enlightened by the Holy Spirit does not miss this focal point of the Bible.
Amen. Exactly what I'm saying too. You've yet to hear it, it seems.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
There is no authoritative teaching of the Church for all times. The Church evolves and its interpretations will change. Take for example the concept of the Kingdom of God. It has been understood in many ways in the history of the Church. It was even identified with the Church. In the second Vatican council it gave a fresh interpretation saying that the kingdom of God is the kingdom of peace, justice and equality etc. The same thing with the concept of heaven and hell. They were thought to be physical places now they are understood as the states of consciousness. Spiritual truths have to be understood in the time and situations we live, otherwise they become irrelevant.

That some ideas evolve does not imply that there is no authoritative teaching of the Church. The highest authority in the Church is an ecumenical council, of which there have been seven (Vat I and II don't count as ecumenical because they are local). These councils have addressed such issues as the Trinity, the Incarnation, the veneration of relics, icons and saints, and many other issues. They are not a matter of dispute within the Church (although heretics and schismatics do in fact dispute them).

There are other loci of authoritative teaching, but they all pale in comparison to the authority of the councils.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
For me Jesus had discovered the eternal truth; he became one with the eternal truth; he said I am the way,the truth and the life. He invited everyone to do so. He liberated the truth from its imprisonment and made it alive,dynamic and free. Can we also do the same?

"He became one with the eternal truth" and "I am the way, the truth and the life" mean different things. Jesus didn't "become" the truth, he is the truth, and always has been from eternity past. He invited us to repentance and faith.

Of course, since you have liberated "truth" from its imprisonment, I suppose you'd know better than those who walked with Jesus what Jesus must have meant by what he said.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I don't believe you do based upon your previous responses. You said this:
"And Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God claimed to be the Truth, not an example of truth, not one who had realized or attained truth, not a teacher/guru showing the truth... but the Truth."​
All you are doing is spouting church doctrines (I challenge you to find "God the Son" anywhere in the Bible). You are not demonstrating an understanding of what this "mystery" implies. In fact, to you there is no mystery at all. Nothing to inspire any higher understanding. It's just facts on paper.

In that fact, you fail, and will continue to do so. This is like trying to describe a three-dimensional universe to someone who lives in a two-dimensional flatland. There is no way they can see beyond it into that "mystery". You make mystery a "fact", and thus a round balloon passing through a two-dimensional world appears only as a moving line. A spherical object must fit a two-dimensional understanding. After all, we are made in God's image, so therefore God is two-dimension too!

You sure are presumptuous, Windwalker. You prattle about "spouting Church doctrine". Tell me, from where do we get any information at all about Christ? The Church, of course, which penned the Gospels. You then go on to deride what the Church says in those documents and what can be taught from them. The truth is that the NT is entirely a Church document. If you want to know what they mean, you must resort to the Church.

Of course, that way requires humility, something which you seem to lack.
 

John Martin

Active Member
"He became one with the eternal truth" and "I am the way, the truth and the life" mean different things. Jesus didn't "become" the truth, he is the truth, and always has been from eternity past. He invited us to repentance and faith.

Of course, since you have liberated "truth" from its imprisonment, I suppose you'd know better than those who walked with Jesus what Jesus must have meant by what he said.

Jesus did not become the Truth, he was truth from all eternity but only realized it. He opened this possibility to everyone. 'I am the light of the world; and you are the light of the world' constitute the good news of Jesus and the fullness of his truth. By limiting this possibility only to Jesus( unfortunately but understandably) Christianity has created a spiritual apartheid between Christ and Christians and it is continuously perpetuating that system of spiritual apartheid. This system has survived more than two thousand years and may be has fulfilled its purpose but it is time now to move beyond.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
"He became one with the eternal truth" and "I am the way, the truth and the life" mean different things. Jesus didn't "become" the truth, he is the truth, and always has been from eternity past. He invited us to repentance and faith.

Of course, since you have liberated "truth" from its imprisonment, I suppose you'd know better than those who walked with Jesus what Jesus must have meant by what he said.

This is actually quite possible.

For example....when His own disciples came asking position in the kingdom....
His quick response was.....'You know not what you ask.'

And the conversation ended badly.....
'You shall indeed drink from the cup I shall drink from.
But as to who will sit at my right or my left....THAT is not mine to give.'

So what kind of king cannot choose from His followers and place them in His kingdom as He sees fit???????
Not even in control of such position immediately to His right or His left.

What kind of authority is THAT??????

Say to me again....that I don't understand.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You sure are presumptuous, Windwalker. You prattle about "spouting Church doctrine". Tell me, from where do we get any information at all about Christ? The Church, of course, which penned the Gospels.

Of course, that way requires humility, something which you seem to lack.
My my, judgmental, aren't you? I'm sorry I've hit such a tender spot for you to evoke such an emotional response from you. I'm amused though anyone should use the word "prattle" towards anything I say. That's a first. So, to the points you unleashed in your tongue lashing of me.

The Church penned the Gospels? That is ludicrous. Rather, that's part of the mythology you have adopted from their history of themselves as a later organized body. You do realize that there were many writings Christians used in their congregations that later councils of men sat down in committees and debated over which to keep and which to reject? The myth that there was ever some "pure NT" that these then so-called later heresies "crept in" to sully and pollute are nonsense. The truth is there were many texts in valid use, and a committee of men needed to 'standardize' the teachings that they felt they could administrate from a central body. This is a later creation of the Christian movement.

That later body, calling itself 'Orthodox' is only authoritative in the sense it was sanctioned by the Emperor of Rome. It is a Roman creation, taking Christianity and placing themselves as it's ruler in Roman style of administration. You do realize that some of the books that are included in the NT, were voted against by many of those that sat on those counsels? So how then, did they pen these? You're merely repeating the mythological version of history the Roman Church teaches. What we know of history now shows the holes in this. But that said, there is value in myth. Just don't confuse that with facts.

I'm like Jesus in this regard, that I reject that any religion owns God. I respect that they have done good in preserving various teachings they adopted from these early Christian writings (not created), and many other things. But I refuse to allow them to own God, and dictate how people should know God. That has some usefulness in one context, but harms in another.

You then go on to deride what the Church says in those documents and what can be taught from them. The truth is that the NT is entirely a Church document. If you want to know what they mean, you must resort to the Church.
I do not deride what the NT says. I merely find fault in some people's teachings of what those say. Again, I totally reject your idea that the NT is "entirely a Church document". That's like saying Native American teachings and culture are totally a product of the United States of America, simply because they exist within our borders after we took over their lands.
 
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Sculelos

Active Member
Do what Paul said to do and search the scriptures daily. Read passages in context. Don't settle for small pieces that may or may not reflect whole passageway's.

In the Beginning there was only Good.

However when Satan was created on the fourth day of creation he was created to be evil, that is there was no good found in him. All of course by the perfect planning of God. God created Satan evil to fulfill his master plan and indeed it was Good. However God has always known what everything would lead up to. God knows the past, present and future and has always known everything. Nothing can surprise God.

From John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
The Church penned the Gospels? That is ludicrous. Rather, that's part of the mythology you have adopted from their history of themselves as a later organized body. You do realize that there were many writings Christians used in their congregations that later councils of men sat down in committees and debated over which to keep and which to reject? The myth that there was ever some "pure NT" that these then so-called later heresies "crept in" to sully and pollute are nonsense. The truth is there were many texts in valid use, and a committee of men needed to 'standardize' the teachings that they felt they could administrate from a central body. This is a later creation of the Christian movement.

Yes, the canon was in flux for some time. Still, it was the Church that penned the contents both of what was included and excluded -- except for gnostic writings. Thus, the NT is the Church's document. All of the writings contained therein were penned by members of the Church. Indeed, by apostles or associates of apostles, and therefore they have penultimate authority in the Church. Can other writings lay some claim to being divinely inspired? Sure. The NT was what the entire Church could agree upon (eventually, Revelation took until modern times to be accepted, and although it is accepted, it is still not read in eastern orthodox churches during liturgy).

That later body, calling itself 'Orthodox' is only authoritative in the sense it was sanctioned by the Emperor of Rome. It is a Roman creation, taking Christianity and placing themselves as it's ruler in Roman style of administration. You do realize that some of the books that are included in the NT, were voted against by many of those that sat on those counsels? So how then, did they pen these? You're merely repeating the mythological version of history the Roman Church teaches. What we know of history now shows the holes in this. But that said, there is value in myth. Just don't confuse that with facts.

The Church existed long before Saint Constantine the Great liberated her from Roman persecution. At that time, and in the church worldwide, the model for worship and administration came from the synagogue (with modifications, e.g., bloodless sacrifice), not Rome. And this was not appreciably changed after St. Constantine.

I really don't understand how it can't be possible for the Church to both (a) pen a document with some claim to inspiration, and (b) finally reject that claim to inspiration. The Church was not nearly so "neat" in this process as you seem to suggest. It took a lot of time and involved lots of debate. Only those documents that were apostolic, ancient and received by all were finally admitted. The Epistle of Barnabas, for instance, has had some following, but some regions took serious issue with it. So it didn't pass into the official canon, despite its apparent virtues. You will find that many churches still use this gospel. Such churches are not in violation of anything, and those churches still acknowledge the NT as superior to Barnabas. But Barnabas can still be read with great profit.

Lastly, you yourself may be the one falling victim to confusing myth and fact. Scholars with axes to grind (e.g., John Crossan) and semischolars with delusions of grandeur (e.g., Dan Brown) don't necessarily add to our store of truth.

I'm like Jesus in this regard, that I reject that any religion owns God.

Hear hear!

I respect that they have done good in preserving various teachings they adopted from these early Christian writings (not created), and many other things. But I refuse to allow them to own God, and dictate how people should know God. That has some usefulness in one context, but harms in another.

It's not a matter of owning God. It's a matter of the truth of Christ's statement that he will establish his Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. If He has been true to His promise, there is a place on earth where one can find apostolic tradition faithfully handed down, a community that can trace its lineage to the apostles, and where God's presence can be especially -- but not exclusively -- found. The Church does not own God, but God has bound Himself to His Church (but not by it -- God is sovereign). What you are saying here suggests that you think the gates of hell have indeed prevailed, making Christ a liar. In such a case, all you can do is wander about, staggering from one scholar to the other, cobbling together your spirituality by best guesses with no real basis for thinking you're getting it right (or wrong, for that matter) other than your own subjective feelings, which can be self-justifying or self-deluding.

I do not deride what the NT says. I merely find fault in some people's teachings of what those say. Again, I totally reject your idea that the NT is "entirely a Church document". That's like saying Native American teachings and culture are totally a product of the United States of America, simply because they exist within our borders after we took over their lands.

Actually it's not, and I don't see how. The Church isn't Rome. Yes, the Church was culturally Roman because its members originally came from the Roman Empire. But it is also the Body of Christ, brought into living communion with Him through baptism and chrismation and the bestowing of the Spirit of Christ. That makes it a different sort of community than others.

Having said all this, part of your problem may be that you think I'm Roman Catholic, advocating for that Church. I'm not RC, and I share some of your misgivings about that church (if that's what's going on).
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
This is actually quite possible.

For example....when His own disciples came asking position in the kingdom....
His quick response was.....'You know not what you ask.'

And the conversation ended badly.....
'You shall indeed drink from the cup I shall drink from.
But as to who will sit at my right or my left....THAT is not mine to give.'

So what kind of king cannot choose from His followers and place them in His kingdom as He sees fit???????
Not even in control of such position immediately to His right or His left.

What kind of authority is THAT??????

Say to me again....that I don't understand.

You don't understand. I refer you to the Chalcedonian Creed.
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
...."He became one with the eternal truth" and "I am the way, the truth and the life" mean different things...>>>John Martin

If we can understand the sole purpose for that statement we could see the revelation of God's purpose in Jesus.

Key points:
The law was given to the Israelite's to abide in fully by God the Father as God's chosen.

Meaning: that God was their only source directly and none other. (Hence..adultery) A Very strict and very harsh law.

Why suppose God made it that way? The reason was to show that no flesh could save itself without the redemption from God.

In other words.....the law was a condemnation to all humanity.

The institution of the sacrifice was a precursor to what was about to come.
Predicted from the get-go, in the book of Genesis quote:

Gen_3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

You see....Gen_3:15 alludes to a time for reckoning.
1 Ti 2:15 gives the path by which reckoning will occur.

I just set up for you 1. the chosen, 2. the law, 3.means to reckoning and finally: the actual event by which mankind would be redeemed.

4. The statement: Quote oh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


The last part of that verse is the key to all that I said above.

The nation of Israel were set up for the sacrifice by their high priests, via Moses. To have any other message delivered to them other than by Moses and the law would be death or adultery.

Hence, Jesus was to be offered by the high priest as the official, once and for all time sacrifice, as the sacrificial lamb of God, provided by God had to make that statement.

Jesus was delivering His death sentence to the high priest by that statement precisely for that reason.

The high priest...bound by the law..fulfilled their part to a T.

Hence Jesus....understanding the conditions for what He was going through said while on the cross:JLuk_23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Thee Israelite's are not implicated in Jesus' death, for they are all forgiven, as well, I might add, the rest of humanity as well.

Now folks, that is the jest of what the bible is all about. Yes, there are many avenues/issues to debate about.

Their is a phrase that goes something like this, "hold a nickel to close to the eye and you wouldn't see the dollar behind it.

In essence, that is what happens in debates. The real theme of what the bible gives is the dollar not seen.

Blessings, AJ
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If we can understand the sole purpose for that statement we could see the revelation of God's purpose in Jesus.

Key points:
The law was given to the Israelite's to abide in fully by God the Father as God's chosen.

Meaning: that God was their only source directly and none other. (Hence..adultery) A Very strict and very harsh law.

Why suppose God made it that way? The reason was to show that no flesh could save itself without the redemption from God.

In other words.....the law was a condemnation to all humanity.

The institution of the sacrifice was a precursor to what was about to come.
Predicted from the get-go, in the book of Genesis quote:

Gen_3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

You see....Gen_3:15 alludes to a time for reckoning.
1 Ti 2:15 gives the path by which reckoning will occur.

I just set up for you 1. the chosen, 2. the law, 3.means to reckoning and finally: the actual event by which mankind would be redeemed.

4. The statement: Quote oh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


The last part of that verse is the key to all that I said above.

The nation of Israel were set up for the sacrifice by their high priests, via Moses. To have any other message delivered to them other than by Moses and the law would be death or adultery.

Hence, Jesus was to be offered by the high priest as the official, once and for all time sacrifice, as the sacrificial lamb of God, provided by God had to make that statement.

Jesus was delivering His death sentence to the high priest by that statement precisely for that reason.

The high priest...bound by the law..fulfilled their part to a T.

Hence Jesus....understanding the conditions for what He was going through said while on the cross:JLuk_23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Thee Israelite's are not implicated in Jesus' death, for they are all forgiven, as well, I might add, the rest of humanity as well.

Now folks, that is the jest of what the bible is all about. Yes, there are many avenues/issues to debate about.

Their is a phrase that goes something like this, "hold a nickel to close to the eye and you wouldn't see the dollar behind it.

In essence, that is what happens in debates. The real theme of what the bible gives is the dollar not seen.

Blessings, AJ

Indeed!
Nothing like a Christian rant to obscure the actual intent.

The Carpenter didn't preach to start a new religion.
His parables are correction aimed at the mind and heart.

All He did was preach in a better technique and heal people.

He is the way.
His parables show the means to straighten your thinking and heal the heart.

The rest of your post needs no answer.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Lastly, you yourself may be the one falling victim to confusing myth and fact. Scholars with axes to grind (e.g., John Crossan) and semischolars with delusions of grandeur (e.g., Dan Brown) don't necessarily add to our store of truth.
I'm going to skip all my thoughts of response to what precedes this to cut to the chase. What I am hearing in here can be summarized in these terms; traditionalist views, modernist views, postmodernist views, post-postmodernist views. Your views reflect the traditionalist views. Those have their place and serve their function. I will not slight you that.

However the purpose they serve is not universal. Not even necessarily for all those who hold them over the course of their lives. At a certain point, the questions become such that the mode of thoughts becomes insufficient for them. They need to open to a new way of seeing the same things they were before, now within a different light. It is not a different object they are looking at, but a different way of seeing and understanding the same thing.

Those like Dom Crossan, you mentioned, and the others from the Jesus Seminar (one of which I've spent some time with in discussions) are reflective of the modernist, or rational approach. Traditional approaches are much more rooted in the mythological view (i.e, the myth of apostolic succession you hold to). The modernist approach is not "rejecting God", or having some "axe to grind", simply because they are rejecting for themselves a previous mode of thought that no longer serves them, or others as they may see it. (Dan Brown, of course is just doing his whole ExChristian thing on the public scene, which is part of his process to say "not this" to the mythic-literal interpretation of the world. I would not count him among modern scholars). The modernist approach is trying to salvage the baby of religion from the bathwater of mythic systems in a modern world, using the tools of modern scholarship available to them. It is another approach to religion, not a rejection of it, just as the traditionalist approach is.

Then there is the postmodernist approach which goes it one step further, taking the tools of postmodernity and looking at things like ethnology, anthropology, linguistics, myth studies, semiotics, structuralism, post-structuralism, etc applied to understanding the religious experience and its place in human society and culture. Again, another approach, a new light of understanding to the same thing. Traditionalism is not THE right or only valid approach. Modernity isn't either. Postmodernism isn't either. The problem is they all think and believe each of the others are "wrong", and that they are "right".

I was chuckling to myself how that in this discussion, InChrist, sees me as a heretic. Doubtless, she sees you as one as well! I'm sure you see me as one too. And probably see her as one. :) I on the other hand don't see you or her as this. That is a way of understanding Truth from ones vantage point as being the only vantage point through which to legitimately approach understanding. To me, how you believe is valid for you. It works, and is "true" for you. The same thing holds true in how I see InChrist. She is where she is. You are where you are. I was where I was. I am now where I am.

The point of view I most relate myself to would be the post-postmodernist view, or the Integral view. It does not throw away all of what traditionalist, modernist, or postmodernist views offer. Instead it takes the things of value (the power of myth in traditionalist views; the power of reason in modernist, the power of deconstruction in postmodernism), and attempts to integrate them into a holistic worldview that see the need, importance and necessity for all points of view to flourish and function towards the movement of the greater whole on its path towards Unity (not uniformity). In so doing, it negates the overall reality that a mythological, or rationalist worldview embeds someone within.

In each worldview, it can be best describe as where we "live and move and have our being". But just as you no longer live and move and have your being through the eyes of who you were as an early teen, it's the same thing as someone who is an adult. That worldview they use, is not THE worldview, but a tool, a structure of reality to support them on their growth.

I acknowledge your structure for you.




What you are saying here suggests that you think the gates of hell have indeed prevailed, making Christ a liar. In such a case, all you can do is wander about, staggering from one scholar to the other, cobbling together your spirituality by best guesses with no real basis for thinking you're getting it right (or wrong, for that matter) other than your own subjective feelings, which can be self-justifying or self-deluding.
You are assuming I look to external authorities in which I form and hold my belief structures to, and subsequently the substance of my religious experience, or spirituality. This is not how it functions for me.

I firstly am on a contemplative path. And in this, in what opens to me, I, and others as well who go there, realize the nature of the world we create in our minds, through our beliefs, through our culture, our language, etc, in which we subsequently "live and move and have our being", is not "The Truth". We realize we are, or at the least can be, freed from that illusion of our thoughts as "the truth" ("where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty). It is the experience of that freedom, in Spirit, that allows us to see the world more "lightly". We hold 'truth" with an open hand.

It is not that we have no anchor, no cornerstone. It's just that that is Truth that is itself not "a truth", not a "thing" or some propositional truth you "believe in". Beliefs become more supports, not the anchors. The Anchor, is Spirit. It is knowing Spirit in yourself. It is your Ground. Not your beliefs, your doctrines, or your views, or your systems, your traditions, your culture, your ego, your religion, etc.

It is from this understanding internally, and along with understanding the world through ways of thinking about it exposed through our models of understanding through the tools of our minds, that I am able to live a life of Peace within myself first, and a way of practically integrating that into my life in the world within which I live. But my views are not my Anchor. They are simply tools, simply temporary structures upon which I hang the ornaments of Spirit upon, as you hang them on your structures of traditionalism.
 
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look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Carpenter didn't preach to start a new religion.
His parables are correction aimed at the mind and heart.

All He did was preach in a better technique and heal people.

He is the way.
His parables show the means to straighten your thinking and heal the heart.>>>Thief

Does this sound like old school.....or as you say "All He did was preach in a better technique and heal people".......Joh_10:10 .... I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

What life was He referencing? Surely not this life, for are we not already a alive?

The "that they might have life" *** if they didn't?

So, yes, He did start a new way of thinking, believing and trusting in God via Himself, as the first of an all new creation.

A life not yet had by those He was addressing and for many after Him who have not yet had a change of heart,mind and soul.

As for the parables.....you seem to think they are solely for the physical existence and not seeing the spiritual message in them.

Can I communicate with you on things you already know and are familiar with, or could I communicate with you on things you know absolutely nothing about......is the jest of the parables.

Mat_13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat_13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

The message in parables are all spiritually discerned.

Blessings, AJ
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Does this sound like old school.....or as you say "All He did was preach in a better technique and heal people".......Joh_10:10 .... I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

What life was He referencing? Surely not this life, for are we not already a alive?

The "that they might have life" *** if they didn't?

So, yes, He did start a new way of thinking, believing and trusting in God via Himself, as the first of an all new creation.

A life not yet had by those He was addressing and for many after Him who have not yet had a change of heart,mind and soul.

As for the parables.....you seem to think they are solely for the physical existence and not seeing the spiritual message in them.

Can I communicate with you on things you already know and are familiar with, or could I communicate with you on things you know absolutely nothing about......is the jest of the parables.

Mat_13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat_13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

The message in parables are all spiritually discerned.

Blessings, AJ

You get the jest of my previous post.....
But then assume I don't understand?

It takes a certain frame of mind and heart to form such work as a parable....
and a similar frame of mind and heart to hear it.

Did you really think of me ...otherwise?
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A wise man once said that a house divided amongst itself cannot stand....>>>FranklinMichaelV.3


Mat_12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

What two kingdoms was Jesus referring to?

Zep_1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

The day Jesus died on the cross was the kingdom divided.

The kingdom of the Father and the kingdom of the Son?

House of God already built from the foundation's of the world.

1Sa_2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

But a new house ....."he shall build the house unto my name".

1Ki_8:19 Nevertheless thou shalt not build the house; but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house unto my name.

So....a divided house having spiritual meanings?

The house that Jesus built.....
Luk_1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Application #1 is spiritual. All others are true statements in the realm of mankind.

Blessings, AJ
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Mat_12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

What two kingdoms was Jesus referring to?

Zep_1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

The day Jesus died on the cross was the kingdom divided.

The kingdom of the Father and the kingdom of the Son?

House of God already built from the foundation's of the world.

1Sa_2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

But a new house ....."he shall build the house unto my name".

1Ki_8:19 Nevertheless thou shalt not build the house; but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house unto my name.

So....a divided house having spiritual meanings?

The house that Jesus built.....
Luk_1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Application #1 is spiritual. All others are true statements in the realm of mankind.

Blessings, AJ

I expected that response. If you do not think Christianity is not divided than you need to only look at the disagreements on this site. The moral was simple, those who fight against each other will fail, until Christianity can learn to reintegrate itself into one common acceptance and creed or lack of creed it will forever continue to splinter and splinter until no one actually knows what the actual point was. Given that Jesus's response had been to him casting out demons in the name of Beelzebub, the reference would have been both spiritual and physical.
 
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