astral projection is biblical

[Jollybear]

But it most certainly is familiar territory.

Do you mean that the body is familiar territory as armor? I did not understand your reponse their. Their's another scripture which also states that God is a wall of fire about us, so he is our armor and our wall, here is God being a wall of fire passage in Zachariah 2:5. In Psalms 18:2 it says God is our refuge and shield. Also Psalms 91 talks about abiding in the shadow of God, he protects them. So, over and over, it's not the body that protects, shields or shelters us from the demonic, it's God that does so.


Also you forgot to respond to this point below, i'll quote myself.


"Right, I COULD say that. And no you don't HAVE to fly trillions of miles outside the galaxy in order to praise God for his wondrious works, you can say it in the body. But, if you WANT to fly out trillions of miles and look down at the milkyway and tell God "how wonderfull are your works o Lord, how great your handy work, your power and glory is so vast" what would be so wrong with that? And could a demon look at that and even want to be near you as you say it? The bible says "God inhabits the praises of his people" so if you are up their trillions of miles up and praising God, is a demon going to "inhabit" that? Not when God inhabits it. Also to fly trillions of miles up to look down at the milky way, is relatively an easy feat ONCE your out of your body, just thinking of going to a place, you shoot their like a light rocket. So, it's not like it would be hard. The only hard part is projecting out of the body. But my point is, if we are praising God looking at the milky way after flown up their, what is so bad about it? Arent we FREE to roam within God's creation? Science does it all the time, Nasa seeks to fly in ships as far out in space as possible. Oceanologests seek to dive deeper into the ocean and explore, arent we free to do all of that? Nothing wrong with that right? So why would it be any different with this?"

Out of body experiences are not necessary for this.

True it's not necessary to have an OBE in order to BELIEVE in the spirit realm, but when you experience the spirit realm through witnessing it, it adds to your belief, knowledge, thus making it more solid through experience. And for some poeple, not all, that experience they need, because they are constant doubters.

Sleep fills that role, as well as visions of the right kind. In fact, it's improper for Christians to speak of someone "dying." Rather, they have "fallen asleep in the Lord."

Sleep gives as a taste of what death is like? Hardly, i cannot see that at all. Death will be more vivid then a dream state while asleep. And yes, i agree we are asleep in the Lord, we refere to sleep, not death, because when he comes back, he will wake or ressurect the bodies to life. However when Jesus said he was going to wake lazarus up, the disciples thought he should rest to get better, then Jesus said he died. So, it's not wrong to say "death" as long as we have the right perspective about it.

What is the benefit of this?

What benefits does this different way have as opposed to other ways?

Their is two benefits that i can think of off the top of my head. First is, it makes you experience God through sound and sight, rather then just feelings of joy, peace and love. Secondly, if your more hungry for higher or different levels with God and different experiences with him, well, this is the second reason. You can explore with it.

What sorts of hidden knowledge?

Hidden knowledge, let me give you a whole list that i can think of. Fly to the moon, other planets, to see if their is life on them or not. Fly to the white house, the bildeburg meeting they have once a year, to see what's going on in secret. Fly to a friends house who doubts the spirit realm, have him put some objects on the table, so you can see them, then tell him later what they were. Fly to hell, fly to heaven. Explore, learn the frequencies and energy that the astral or spirit realm is made of. Act like a scientist with regards to it. Explore different espects of the earth and find certain things out, that material science has not yet figured out. Theirs a host of things you can do with this. The sky is the limit(not literally though, lol). Go to area 51, you know, where governments forbid people from entering. Find things out.

How does it differ? How does being in the "spirit realm" make encounters with God different? Yes, you're out of your body, but what difference does that even make?

Kinda like what i am asking conserning the devil, since our bodies are not armor, what difference does it make whether we are in or out of the body?

In light of experiencing God, being in or out of the body, it also makes no difference, eccept in the arena of sight and hearing. If for instence you traveled to heaven out of body, then you would be IN heaven. Now take that vs just seeing a VISION of heaven while in the body. Having a vision of heaven, you would not be IN heaven. Here is an analogy, if you seen a video all about china on your TV, that would be allot different then actually being IN china, actually being their experiencing the place.

Faith and works are not dichotomized in Orthodox Christianity the way they are in the West. They are two sides of the same coin, two parts of one whole. In fact, we don't even speak of "faith and/vs. works" in Orthodoxy, unless the person in question speaking comes from a Protestant or Catholic background. We just speak of "living the Faith." Also in Orthodoxy, we have the ancient Christian concept of synergia, or cooperating with God's grace for our salvation and improvement and repentance. So I'm afraid your attempt to stir the waters with faith vs. works and man's effort vs. God's grace has fallen flat on its face here.

Ok, i'll go with that, faith without works are dead, according to james in the New Testament. So, i'll go with that. So, where was we going with this point again? Oh, i think it was, if prayer is a work of faith and fasting a work of faith, and serving God morally is a work of faith, why can't meditation of the mind for OBE be a work of faith? Since it's using espects of our reality and self that God created.

 

[Jollybear]

This is getting back to my question about the spiritual value of such practices. I'll pick that up again here.

The reality of our spiritual nature to me seems far more verified by experiencing it without leaving the body in the sense you describe. What happens for me is such a profound all-encompassing, all-pervading presence in mind and body that it is undeniable in its immediacy. From your earlier descriptions of an OBE is doesn't seem to convey that in any sort of direct manner. It seems more an implied suggestion.

When you mention the all pervading presence in mind, are you reffering to God's pressence? If so, with an OBE you CAN experience God's pressence, yes, but you can also use it for recreational use, just like anything in the physical world that God created, you can use those things for recreational use as well.

Knowing ones true nature through meditation removes one from the clinging to the body-identification, or ego-identification, and the nature of who we are spiritually becomes clear. Death becomes simply a passage of change, and yet you remain. That which you are never dies.

I agree, that our spirit, who we are, never dies. Define ones "true spiritual nature"?

But in what regards? I asked before about insights gained, and you said there really wasn't any. I can tell you easily that understanding the nature of what that domain is, is the entire point of meditation on that level. It's called insight meditation for a reason.

With OBE's you can gain insights, the list i already gave illustrates it. Let me give the list once more. You can explore the spirit realm, treat it like a science, anylyze the material or frequencies of that realm. Travel places, find out things the material science has not figured out yet. Travel to heaven, see what goes on. Travel to hell, do the same. Travel to other planets, see what goes on, gain insights. Travel to secret government organizations, see what goes on. Go to area 51, the list can go on and on. As you call on God in that realm. Take in what you see and hear, gain insights. When you say insights, i assume you mean, learn things? If that's what you mean, then yes, their is much to learn, much insights to gain through OBE's.

I would say maybe in the sense of experiencing life in a different way gives a different perspective to reality. In that sense it offers another way to look at God, as there are many ways to do so. Experiencing God directly, is also a way to really expose the spirit to the world.


Studying about cultures, or participating with others also exposes these things.

Studying secret organizations does not expose knowledge, because their secret, finding out their secrets through OBE one can find out the secrets. Also things that are UNKNOWN to governments and science, some of those things can be found out through OBE.

So then I wonder what I'm missing? It seems to sound like it's more just interesting or even recreational in some ways, than a deeply spiritual experience.

It is all three of those things. It's both interesting, recreational AND can be a deeply spiritual experience as well, it all DEPENDS on what you do with it, it's a TOOL. But is using it for recreational use evil? No more evil then doing recreational things in the physical realm would be. In other words, it would not be evil. How would it? Your learning the creation that God made, without worshiping it though.

 

[Windwalker]

When you mention the all pervading presence in mind, are you reffering to God's pressence? If so, with an OBE you CAN experience God's pressence,

I'd like to get back to a fuller response later as time permits, but for the moment, could you elaborate on what you experience as God's presence?

 

[Jollybear]

I'd like to get back to a fuller response later as time permits, but for the moment, could you elaborate on what you experience as God's presence?

Well....In my experience, this is God's pressence, and this also is backed up by scripture. I have felt different things with regards to his pressence. Sometimes i would feel this warm heat flow from my head to my stomach, very healing in it's nature it felt, it would be accampanied by joy and a great peace and boldness.. ....Also their's been times when i was very close to him, that i felt sinful tendencies, like rage, fear, sloth, lust, just die within my body, peace and joy would be in it's place. This pressence is so real, that one moment i could be so deppressed, then i press through to God and cry out to him, but i only break through when i humble myself i find, but when i do, then the joy, peace, instantly comes and the deppression is gon within a second. It blows my mind. But, it's very real in exactly how i am describing it.

 

[Windwalker]

Well....In my experience, this is God's pressence, and this also is backed up by scripture.

I don't worry so much that it's "backed up by scripture", as by no means is scripture exhaustive in what it describes, or that God is somehow limited to a few words recorded in history, and therefore disallowed to be anything but that.

I make a point of this, because I feel taking any approach to restrict God in this way actually hinders growth spiritually. The true rule is simple: "By their fruits you shall know them". Does it bear fruit in our lives. No fundamentalist has ever been able to answer that challenge when they criticize those who deviate from their self-imposed boxes on God.

I have felt different things with regards to his pressence. Sometimes i would feel this warm heat flow from my head to my stomach, very healing in it's nature it felt, it would be accampanied by joy and a great peace and boldness.. ....Also their's been times when i was very close to him, that i felt sinful tendencies, like rage, fear, sloth, lust, just die within my body, peace and joy would be in it's place. This pressence is so real, that one moment i could be so deppressed, then i press through to God and cry out to him, but i only break through when i humble myself i find, but when i do, then the joy, peace, instantly comes and the deppression is gon within a second. It blows my mind. But, it's very real in exactly how i am describing it.

Yes, this sounds right. There is of course much more that can be added to this.

When you experience an OBE, do you experience what you describe above, that you are one with, united with, or otherwise in the presence of the divine?

 

[Jollybear]

I don't worry so much that it's "backed up by scripture", as by no means is scripture exhaustive in what it describes,

Very true, scripture is not exhaustive, if it was, im sure we would have a bible that is miles long in thickness, lol.

or that God is somehow limited to a few words recorded in history, and therefore disallowed to be anything but that.

I do think their has to be a measuring rule to go by. I do think God will be consistent, i don't think he will go outside his good charector. So in a sense God is not limited to a few words or put in a box, but at the same time, God will limit himself to his charector and his will and his word. If their is no measuring rule, then anything goes, and i think God wants us to be careful, because if anything goes, then their would be no means of being decieved, truth would not exist, everything would be relative. And, relativism makes no sense to me. I think truth and right and wrong are objective things. If their are not SOLID things that God binds himself too, then how can we know for sure what is of him and is not of him, EVER?

I make a point of this, because I feel taking any approach to restrict God in this way actually hinders growth spiritually. The true rule is simple: "By their fruits you shall know them". Does it bear fruit in our lives. No fundamentalist has ever been able to answer that challenge when they criticize those who deviate from their self-imposed boxes on God.

Right, as much as i agree with you that we should not restrict God, and by restricting him that indeed hinders growth spiritually, at the same time, i think God hinders himself by a certain criteria of his own, that is consistent and that he himself has revealed, and that we should use that revelation as a guide to go by, not a box to place him in, but just as a guide. Because if their is no measuring stick that he has revealed to go by, how then can we measure truth objectively if God is not consistent?

Yes, this sounds right. There is of course much more that can be added to this.

Yes, what would you add?

When you experience an OBE, do you experience what you describe above, that you are one with, united with, or otherwise in the presence of the divine?

Interesting question. To answer that, feel i first have to give you backround details of my experience with my OBE and my reason for inducing one and why i did not induce a second one....yet. My reason for wanting to induce an OBE was one of intrigue, wanting to verify the spirit realm for myself through experience, rather then just "believe" it through mental assent. My spiritual journey is not one i want to be a set of beliefes that are just mentally assented to, that too me is not true spirituality. My second reason for wanting it, was to explore and experiment with the spirit realm and with God. Now that said, during this time i was spending alot of time meditating every day in order to induce this, i also had other goals in my life, which this goal of inducing an OBE was taking away from those. So i said to myself, i will induce my first one, then put on the backburner doing a second one and more, for a later time after i finish my other goals. So, that's what i did, i verified the spirit realm through the first one, and i plan on doing another one in the future, but before i do, i want to be sure it's OK before God, and that's why i am debating the issue or discussing it here. I would like to get a fundementalist christian to debate it too, that would be nice, because i know their going to be a die heart against it. But, i would like to truly know why. So far any fundamentalist i have talked about this in person, their intellectual responses have been nothing but pure nonsense and totally weak, and at worst, just plain ole dismissal of the issues. Which is turning me off from them. If they think their message against this is so serious, perhaps they should consider my questions to them, serious. The next thing is, when i had my first OBE, it was cut short for two reasons. First reason was because i was following the books instructions that i was training from, it told me for the first OBE, do not travel too far too soon, each additional OBE's you can travel a little further each one you induce. The reason being because it helps with the memory of the experience. I did not question it, so i just did it. I didn't travel too far too soon. And i remembered the experience just fine, very vividly. Anyway, the other reason it was cut short is because when i came out of my body and saw my body lying on the bed, and i walked around my bed, and looked at the room and the walls and window and then came at the foot of my bed, the moment i came to the foot of my bed, walking around it, many spirits started to come through the wall of my room. I was not expecting that to happen (although the book told me some strage things MAY happen, but as you continue to control it, it will get better). It was like an army of poeple comming toward me. They seamed like emotionless beings, no hate, no love, just intent gaze in their faces. I did not know what they wanted. So i dove back into my body. so, that is the second reason i did not travel further, like into the rest of my house, or into the yard at least. But, I aventually am going or plan on going back to inducing my second one, but i want to clear up some few odds and ends in my life first, which will take some time.

So, i have not been able to experiment with everything i have in mind for these OBE's yet.....but from testimonies i have heard from others, they have experienced God with their OBE. Now in my experience, i did not experience God or his pressence with my first OBE, all i experienced was "comming out", sorta like the "recreational" espect of it, if you will. Then seeing all the poeple come through the wall, who knows what that was, lol, i gauss maybe i'll find out in my second one i induce, the second one though i plan on not diving back in. First time i was just caught off gaurd by it.

Perhaps another reason i did not sense this "oneness with the devine" as you put it, is because my mind is predisposed to compartmentalizing things, i try to understand things through anylization, like, this is this, that is that, over here is over here.

 

[Windwalker]

Very true, scripture is not exhaustive, if it was, im sure we would have a bible that is miles long in thickness, lol.

This actually evoked a visualization in my mind. That Bible, such a collection of scriptures, is what is written and distributed within the hearts of all humans, whether or not they've opened them is the only limits to it.

Nice thought, no?

I do think their has to be a measuring rule to go by. I do think God will be consistent, i don't think he will go outside his good charector. So in a sense God is not limited to a few words or put in a box, but at the same time, God will limit himself to his charector and his will and his word. If their is no measuring rule, then anything goes, and i think God wants us to be careful, because if anything goes, then their would be no means of being decieved, truth would not exist, everything would be relative. And, relativism makes no sense to me. I think truth and right and wrong are objective things. If their are not SOLID things that God binds himself too, then how can we know for sure what is of him and is not of him, EVER?

There is some truth to relativism to be sure, but extreme versions of it such as you describe has some inherent flaws to it. I believe things can be deemed as better than others, but that the measure of this is not something we can point to external to us in the sense of some sort of holding that over another by citing our understanding of absolute truth. Trying to keep this simple here, I'll come back to Jesus' equation, 'By their fruits you shall know them".

We judge the value of a thing, a belief, a practice, by the type of fruit it bears. Not by some standard we impose upon it, saying it must look like, talk like, believe like this over here. That does not allow Life to move through, or come to fruition within the uniqueness of each individual. It imposes from the outside upon the surface structures what is ultimately at its heart an internal unfolding outward through form.

Chew on that for awhile.

Yes, what would you add?

Where could I begin? I have describe this in many ways. To cite my own first experiences I said this in another post here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3304252-post793.html

"my first experience was a high-subtle level experience where I experienced a complete cessation of time, infinite mind, infinite awareness, a knowledge of my entire life before my eyes, infinite compassion, infinite grace, infinite love, all within a sliver of infinity within an infinity beyond it, and that sliver of infinity was infinity in itself. White light. Pure power, control, grace, pressing upon me, knowing my name. Difficult to describe.

The second experience was days later while walking outdoors, where the universe "ripped open" and everything, every molecule of air, every blade of grass, every movement of air, every face, every object radiated a living, vital life, love, pure, essence, being. And from within me, from the most unimaginable depth beyond comprehension within me flowed this very energy up and out into the world in a infinite flow of life itself. No words can adequately describe this. This is the nondual reality."​

How I describe my experiences of this now really varies depending on where I move to within that. I've kept a journal following my daily meditation practices and record my impressions and what insights flow from them. Here is one from those that may help illustrate how I may describe the experience of this,

"I sat within a field of snow. White and pure, it surrounded me as I meditated within it. Purity and freshness surrounded me. I filled a healing bowl with the waters of Life and held it before the Divine. I drank of it within myself and its waters poured over me and rose to heaven and rained down in gentle snows upon the world. I was filled with purity of mind and soul. Grace. Purity is the door through which we enter into God, and Grace guides us within to stand before That and enter into its infinite mind and presence. I have no enemies. I am Grace.

I am at Peace. I am grateful, my heart full of thanksgiving and joy. Pure waters, as snow live within me. My mind is clean and effortless in Awareness. I breathe and feel the breath move into and out of my body, connected to the world around me. The world enters me and I into the world in each breath. It is a relationship of life, of radiant energy in every living thing to everything; each breath reaches to and touches each other, in body, in mind, and spirit. We all exist within the body of the divine, we its eyes, its mind, in embrace of Spirit. I am the divine, the divine is me, is all things. There is nothing separated from it as the world slumbers in its body. I am that Life. I am Truth."​

If the last statements concern you, understand this is an expression of identification with God, and of God's identification within us. It is not speaking from the ego, the small self.


I'm going to respond later in a separate post to what you laid out talking about your OBE. I have a lot to say, but will need to space of time to respond as I wish. (I need this time for my morning meditation, actually )

 

[Windwalker]

My reason for wanting to induce an OBE was one of intrigue, wanting to verify the spirit realm for myself through experience, rather then just "believe" it through mental assent. My spiritual journey is not one i want to be a set of beliefes that are just mentally assented to, that too me is not true spirituality. My second reason for wanting it, was to explore and experiment with the spirit realm and with God.

I'm curious, was it a curiosity to see if it was real or not from what you've been told, or was it to deepen what you've intuited to be true? In other words, to better know God? And I can appreciate your saying it needs to be more than just belief.

So i said to myself, i will induce my first one, then put on the backburner doing a second one and more, for a later time after i finish my other goals. So, that's what i did, i verified the spirit realm through the first one, and i plan on doing another one in the future, but before i do, i want to be sure it's OK before God, and that's why i am debating the issue or discussing it here.

You see for me, my meditation is to connect with God, to know God, to open to God, to allow God within myself. I have no issue breaking with what others deem "approved" practice, as honestly, those that make these "rules" are often those who don't do them themselves! How would they know? What I follow is what works, and the fruit it bears validates it for myself. I'm not sure why you need approval? My inclination here is that you are looking for some inner assurance outside yourself. That bears some looking into.

I would like to get a fundementalist christian to debate it too, that would be nice, because i know their going to be a die heart against it. But, i would like to truly know why. So far any fundamentalist i have talked about this in person, their intellectual responses have been nothing but pure nonsense and totally weak, and at worst, just plain ole dismissal of the issues. Which is turning me off from them.

Yes, well.... Fear is the number one motivating factor of fundamentalists, IMHO. To look within is extremely frightening, because it is the uber-religiousness itself which serves as a distraction to that, placing all truth outside of themselves. "I trust God's word!", not able to penetrate that it is themselves telling themselves what they want to hear in reading these texts.

That entire "New Age is Satan" thing that InChrist posted, I actually read all of it in the link! Wow. Insightful. I could go into great detail in it, but suffice to say my initial impression was right. He spent his life looking for answers outside himself, avoiding looking within, trying to find God "out there", and ended up - as should be expected when you voyage inward this way - confronting his inner demons and freaking out, running away into yet another externalized version of religion! I have said many times, New Age is really nothing other than experimental Christianity, and this confirms it. He hasn't been "saved". He switched religions. Still avoiding God.

Don't expect a rational reason from those running from themselves.

If they think their message against this is so serious, perhaps they should consider my questions to them, serious.

Nope. It's all reactive responses, not based on any real insights. Just fear and irrationality. You have to look elsewhere for actual insights.

I did not know what they wanted. So i dove back into my body. so, that is the second reason i did not travel further, like into the rest of my house, or into the yard at least.

You say this as though you were afraid. It frightened you. Is this why you hesitate, looking to others to assure you of what to do, or perhaps to validate your fear to avoid looking further?

I will never tell you to do, or not to do. You need to look within to find those answers. That, to me is what the work you need to do is. Look within.

It's a lot more challenging that just some spiritual experience as you describe. Those are merely vehicles to get you to see yourself. That's the hard work. Truly hard work. But more than worth the discovery. I can't tell you how much so. Today, in my meditation following my above post, at the end of it as I moved through something quite deep, was this verse, "Perfect love casts out all fear". Indeed. Perfected love, without impurity, without constriction. Peace. Eternal peace.

This is the journey of the spirit, my friend. Let no one tell you otherwise.

But, I aventually am going or plan on going back to inducing my second one, but i want to clear up some few odds and ends in my life first, which will take some time.

Personally, I think you should add just some deep meditation without trying to induce anything. In fact, as you seek for yourself, God recedes. You must seek God, for God's sake alone. In that you will find. You seeking to allow God, not to figure it out, not to validate it, not to assuage your doubts. You must fall into God, emptying yourself into God, allow God. Then all this other stuff, is utterly secondary. It now becomes about transforming yourself into the image of God.

You have to go here to understand this.

I'm just going to leave it here for now.

 

[Jollybear]

This actually evoked a visualization in my mind. That Bible, such a collection of scriptures, is what is written and distributed within the hearts of all humans, whether or not they've opened them is the only limits to it.

Nice thought, no?

Very good thought, i like it, well said, i think it accurately depicts what the bible is trying to get across.

There is some truth to relativism to be sure, but extreme versions of it such as you describe has some inherent flaws to it. I believe things can be deemed as better than others, but that the measure of this is not something we can point to external to us in the sense of some sort of holding that over another by citing our understanding of absolute truth. Trying to keep this simple here, I'll come back to Jesus' equation, 'By their fruits you shall know them".


We judge the value of a thing, a belief, a practice, by the type of fruit it bears. Not by some standard we impose upon it, saying it must look like, talk like, believe like this over here. That does not allow Life to move through, or come to fruition within the uniqueness of each individual. It imposes from the outside upon the surface structures what is ultimately at its heart an internal unfolding outward through form.

Chew on that for awhile.

Wow, that last part i was to chew on, i swear could have made it into the beutitudes, .....

Ok, lets see if i understand correctly......Your saying, if we impose a standard upon so in so, to believe thus and practice this, that will cause him to either rebel or conform, but not change within his heart?

If we are to look for fruit, and if we "know them by their fruit" then if their is no absolute standard off truth to measure this, how then do we know them by their fruit? How do we know what fruit to look for if their is no absolute standard?

Where could I begin? I have describe this in many ways. To cite my own first experiences I said this in another post here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3304252-post793.html

"my first experience was a high-subtle level experience where I experienced a complete cessation of time, infinite mind, infinite awareness, a knowledge of my entire life before my eyes, infinite compassion, infinite grace, infinite love, all within a sliver of infinity within an infinity beyond it, and that sliver of infinity was infinity in itself. White light. Pure power, control, grace, pressing upon me, knowing my name. Difficult to describe.

The second experience was days later while walking outdoors, where the universe "ripped open" and everything, every molecule of air, every blade of grass, every movement of air, every face, every object radiated a living, vital life, love, pure, essence, being. And from within me, from the most unimaginable depth beyond comprehension within me flowed this very energy up and out into the world in a infinite flow of life itself. No words can adequately describe this. This is the nondual reality."​

​

Sounds pretty abstract. But, if i understand you correctly. Their was one time i had a vision of heaven and their was light their and when it entered your eyes, it didn't make you sqwint, and it was white light. It entered the mind and soul. I also seen a river and i drank out of it and the water went into my stomach and then into my soul and spirit. And everything radiated, the grass, the flowers. The flowers were humming as well.

But ther has been a few times, when the glory or pressence of God came on me, that when i seen the trees and fields and sky outside, it radiated with this invisible radiation of some sort, it just seamed different then before. It looked the same, but yet, it was not the same. Does that make sense? I think this is what you may be discribing, but maybe not?

How I describe my experiences of this now really varies depending on where I move to within that. I've kept a journal following my daily meditation practices and record my impressions and what insights flow from them. Here is one from those that may help illustrate how I may describe the experience of this,

"I sat within a field of snow. White and pure, it surrounded me as I meditated within it. Purity and freshness surrounded me. I filled a healing bowl with the waters of Life and held it before the Divine. I drank of it within myself and its waters poured over me and rose to heaven and rained down in gentle snows upon the world. I was filled with purity of mind and soul. Grace. Purity is the door through which we enter into God, and Grace guides us within to stand before That and enter into its infinite mind and presence. I have no enemies. I am Grace.

I am at Peace. I am grateful, my heart full of thanksgiving and joy. Pure waters, as snow live within me. My mind is clean and effortless in Awareness. I breathe and feel the breath move into and out of my body, connected to the world around me. The world enters me and I into the world in each breath. It is a relationship of life, of radiant energy in every living thing to everything; each breath reaches to and touches each other, in body, in mind, and spirit. We all exist within the body of the divine, we its eyes, its mind, in embrace of Spirit. I am the divine, the divine is me, is all things. There is nothing separated from it as the world slumbers in its body. I am that Life. I am Truth."
​

If the last statements concern you, understand this is an expression of identification with God, and of God's identification within us. It is not speaking from the ego, the small self.

Right, by saying you were devine, i did not think you were saying it from the ego, but I do have to ask, are you discribing panthiesm?

I'm going to respond later in a separate post to what you laid out talking about your OBE. I have a lot to say, but will need to space of time to respond as I wish. (I need this time for my morning meditation, actually )

Sounds good, i look forword to the rest of what you have to say.

 

[Jollybear]

I'm curious, was it a curiosity to see if it was real or not from what you've been told, or was it to deepen what you've intuited to be true? In other words, to better know God? And I can appreciate your saying it needs to be more than just belief.

It was to deepen what I intuited to be true AND to better know God. Both of those. But it was not the first thing you mentioned, it was not to find out if the spirit world was real or not, because i already "believed" it was real.

You see for me, my meditation is to connect with God, to know God, to open to God, to allow God within myself. I have no issue breaking with what others deem "approved" practice, as honestly, those that make these "rules" are often those who don't do them themselves! How would they know? What I follow is what works, and the fruit it bears validates it for myself. I'm not sure why you need approval? My inclination here is that you are looking for some inner assurance outside yourself. That bears some looking into.

well, it's not that i want their approval, for i know I already don't have it from a fundementalist christian, what i want from them is an explanation and debate about this, how they totally see this from scriture as being dissaproved. I don't see it from scripture as dissaproved. But the reason i seek for them to "prove me wrong" is because perhaps they MAY help me see something i am not currently seeing. Because when one has a certain viewpoint, that viewpoint may put up blinders from seeing something that they may need to see. But then again, perhaps their is nothing that i need to see, perhaps i see the truth now, but to be SURE of that, i would need to debate with them.

Yes, well.... Fear is the number one motivating factor of fundamentalists, IMHO. To look within is extremely frightening, because it is the uber-religiousness itself which serves as a distraction to that, placing all truth outside of themselves. "I trust God's word!", not able to penetrate that it is themselves telling themselves what they want to hear in reading these texts.

Right, and i can see that some people as they read the bible do what your saying here, they don't look within. In other words, they don't GET the bible. Jesus said the kingdom of God is WITHIN. They don't GET that. But, i think some poeple do get it though.

That entire "New Age is Satan" thing that InChrist posted, I actually read all of it in the link! Wow. Insightful. I could go into great detail in it, but suffice to say my initial impression was right. He spent his life looking for answers outside himself, avoiding looking within, trying to find God "out there", and ended up - as should be expected when you voyage inward this way - confronting his inner demons and freaking out, running away into yet another externalized version of religion! I have said many times, New Age is really nothing other than experimental Christianity, and this confirms it. He hasn't been "saved". He switched religions. Still avoiding God.

This is interesting what you say here, and for the most part i find myself agreeing with it, it resonates in my spirit as true. But at the same time, to LOOK "out their" meaning to try to figure out and find the truth, in order to practice it, can't be a bad thing in itself, right? I mean in a sense, by me dialoging with you, it's sorta like me "looking out their" in a sense.

Don't expect a rational reason from those running from themselves.

very true.

Nope. It's all reactive responses, not based on any real insights. Just fear and irrationality. You have to look elsewhere for actual insights.

Their's gotta be some fundementalist out their who can at least FORCE himself to be rational and take serious these issues i have?

You say this as though you were afraid. It frightened you. Is this why you hesitate, looking to others to assure you of what to do, or perhaps to validate your fear to avoid looking further?

Well, when those spirits came through my wall, yes initially when it happened, it frightened me, i did not know what they wanted, or what to do about it, so i dove back into my body, i was not prepared for that to happen. Now, maybe they meant well, i don't know though. I just assumed they meant to control something going on with me, so i dove back in the body. I assumed they meant ill because of their intense gaze and marching forward toward me. But is this the reason i have not induced a second OBE? The answer is a resounding no, seeing those spirits are not the reason why i have not induced a second OBE. My reason for not inducing a second one is simply because of the many other things i had going on in life, and this would take time away from that. As stated before, i tend to compartmentalize life, if i take on too many goals at a time, i get weary and then one or more goals suffer for it. So when i do something, i tend to give myself to it 110%. So, no i am not trying to validate my fear of doing a second OBE through wishing to debate with a fundementalist in the hopes he wins the debate. EVEN IF i did NOT see those spirits come through the wall, and everything in the experience was nothing but expected and pleasent, i would STILL wish to debate the issue with a fundementalist, for i would still be curious as to find out in great detail, WHY they still would think it's demonic. Perhaps i don't see something i need to? or perhaps they don't see something they need too.

I will never tell you to do, or not to do. You need to look within to find those answers. That, to me is what the work you need to do is. Look within.

It's a lot more challenging that just some spiritual experience as you describe. Those are merely vehicles to get you to see yourself. That's the hard work. Truly hard work. But more than worth the discovery. I can't tell you how much so. Today, in my meditation following my above post, at the end of it as I moved through something quite deep, was this verse, "Perfect love casts out all fear". Indeed. Perfected love, without impurity, without constriction. Peace. Eternal peace.

This is the journey of the spirit, my friend. Let no one tell you otherwise.

I can see this.

Personally, I think you should add just some deep meditation without trying to induce anything. In fact, as you seek for yourself, God recedes. You must seek God, for God's sake alone. In that you will find. You seeking to allow God, not to figure it out, not to validate it, not to assuage your doubts. You must fall into God, emptying yourself into God, allow God. Then all this other stuff, is utterly secondary. It now becomes about transforming yourself into the image of God.

You have to go here to understand this.

I'm just going to leave it here for now.

So when you say, we have to seek God. Who is God that i seek? In other words, how can i seek something that i don't know what i am seeking first? So who is he that i may seek him?

 

[Windwalker]

Ok, lets see if i understand correctly......Your saying, if we impose a standard upon so in so, to believe thus and practice this, that will cause him to either rebel or conform, but not change within his heart?

You can understand it that way. Ultimately, what is in the heart needs to find its own way, like a plant finding its way up through the concrete breaking it on its path to the sun. There is Life, finding its way. To proscribe "one way" for that plant to grow, will destroy it. You may suggest a direction for it, but ultimately, you must allow it to find its way. This is life. This is what God does in all of us. And the wise allow it.

If we are to look for fruit, and if we "know them by their fruit" then if their is no absolute standard off truth to measure this, how then do we know them by their fruit? How do we know what fruit to look for if their is no absolute standard?

The absolute is Love. It forms as it wills, through the cracks of the cement, around the corners of our buildings, up the sides of our houses.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." This is the fruition of the spiritual life.

How do we judge this? With the eyes of the heart, rooted and grounded in Love. Infinite, absolute, Love.

Sounds pretty abstract. But, if i understand you correctly. Their was one time i had a vision of heaven and their was light their and when it entered your eyes, it didn't make you sqwint, and it was white light. It entered the mind and soul. I also seen a river and i drank out of it and the water went into my stomach and then into my soul and spirit. And everything radiated, the grass, the flowers. The flowers were humming as well.

In hindsight, that post was holding back a little and was somewhat abstract as you say. This is something I shared sometime ago with someone I think describes it more close to the heart:

"I've experienced something very similar. A point in my life of great crisis; an event that took me to the edge of death; a cry of desperation for help out into the utter darkness; white light suddenly appearing everywhere, in an instant driving everything else out that tormented me; a complete cessation of time; infinite peace, infinite love, infinite knowledge, infinite awareness, infinite power, infinite grace and compassion, all in only a sliver of an inconceivable infinity that lay beyond that; and then a gentle voice of infinite compassion and awareness speaking only my name, conveying my life's story before my eyes in an instant of utter timelessness with the knowledge spoken without words to my mind that I was never alone, that was loved beyond all knowledge. Shall I continue?

Rising from this vision I felt all the pain of my heart come gushing out of the deepest part of my soul in a torrent of tears, being both afraid and amazed at what had just happened. Two days later, I began what began my lifelong search for understanding of this. Being raised in a Christian culture, seeking out a minister seemed the most appropriate beginning. I openly shared my experience with wonder and puzzlement in my voice, to the stolid looks of the minister who gave little response. The following day I spoke to another, this time a Catholic priest, who likewise sat with a blank stare and his offering what I learned later to be the typical Catholic response of asking if I had anything to confess.

I left feeling discouraged, lost, and confused, yet with this knowledge in my heart. Suddenly, without any warning or indication, the entire Universe opened to me before my eyes, as if a great curtain opened in an instant. I suddenly saw for the first time in my life - color. The world was full of color, with vibrant greens and blues everywhere! The World was full of light and love and color, and permeated everything as a sort of living joy that surrounded me, moved through me, and began flowing out of the most unimaginably deepest part of my being out into the world in a sort of song, as can only be described as utter, living love.

I saw people walking by me, and rather than feeling darkness and shame in my heart and averting my eyes away as in my past, instead I felt pure love and joy. No thoughts of darkness were in me anywhere at that moment, and I felt truly alive for the first time in my life."​

I continue on beyond this, but this conveys much more the heart of what that was then. Every time in meditation now, I touch the face of this and it fills my soul.

But ther has been a few times, when the glory or pressence of God came on me, that when i seen the trees and fields and sky outside, it radiated with this invisible radiation of some sort, it just seamed different then before. It looked the same, but yet, it was not the same. Does that make sense? I think this is what you may be discribing, but maybe not?

If this is your description of your experience, oh yes. I know this well.

Right, by saying you were devine, i did not think you were saying it from the ego, but I do have to ask, are you discribing panthiesm?

No. It's complicated to try to categorize it, but pantheism is too limited to go here. If you go to what Jesus said, "I and my Father are One," that becomes much closer. You have to understand what that is first, without trying to rationalize it. It is Unity. "I pray Father that they may be one, even as you and I are one." That.

Sounds good, i look forword to the rest of what you have to say.

Already posted it.

 

[Windwalker]

It was to deepen what I intuited to be true AND to better know God. Both of those. But it was not the first thing you mentioned, it was not to find out if the spirit world was real or not, because i already "believed" it was real.

Good.

This is interesting what you say here, and for the most part i find myself agreeing with it, it resonates in my spirit as true. But at the same time, to LOOK "out their" meaning to try to figure out and find the truth, in order to practice it, can't be a bad thing in itself, right? I mean in a sense, by me dialoging with you, it's sorta like me "looking out their" in a sense.

True. We live in relation with others, and we live in a shared reality with them. To engage them as touchstones is important. To be sure. But people make the mistake, the easy, less fearful approach of relying on others to validate themselves. We have to ultimately stand alone, even though others are part of what makes us who we are. We have to decide. We have to choose.

I see God as both outside us, and within us. To look wholly outside ourselves, is to avoid the necessary growth that ultimately leaves us to 'stand' before the Lord, so to speak. We must stand.

Their's gotta be some fundementalist out their who can at least FORCE himself to be rational and take serious these issues i have?

LOL! Me. I was a fundamentalist at a time in my life. Graduated Bible college top of the class. But like that plant breaking through a concrete slab, what was within had to touch the Sun. I'm an ex-fundamentalist.

So when you say, we have to seek God. Who is God that i seek? In other words, how can i seek something that i don't know what i am seeking first? So who is he that i may seek him?

That last sentence rang a bell. Was it from the 10 Commandments when Charlton Heston said that as a young Moses?

Knowing who, or what, God is, is an unfolding understanding. Your whole life will be that awakening, should you choose to follow that.

 

[Jollybear]

You can understand it that way. Ultimately, what is in the heart needs to find its own way, like a plant finding its way up through the concrete breaking it on its path to the sun. There is Life, finding its way. To proscribe "one way" for that plant to grow, will destroy it. You may suggest a direction for it, but ultimately, you must allow it to find its way. This is life. This is what God does in all of us. And the wise allow it.

I like this annalogy, i'm going to build on it. Here is what i find the situation to be like. Prayer is great, it's good, so is fasting, so is being a morally good person, and all of that combined is good, but all of that together, i find, in my experience, is limiting. In my experience i find that all of those things, though good, have brought me (a flower) up through the dirt and around some rocks SO FAR, and then it has brought me no further. But i sense, that meditation, will bring the rest of the way up through the ground and into the light. The fundamentelist christian (another flower in the same ground as me) says to me "don't do meditation, it's of the devil! it will bring you into the darkness and out of the light, stay away from it!" And if i listen to that, i feel i will be limiting myself and my God given potential. The flower in me has more potential growth. I think the reason the fundementalist says it's of the devil, is two fold. Some fundementalists are not all the same. In Jesus day, some Jews were jelouse and that's why they said what Jesus was doing was off the devil, but in other cases, like Paul, it was not jelousy, it was just self deception, so God turned him around.

The absolute is Love. It forms as it wills, through the cracks of the cement, around the corners of our buildings, up the sides of our houses.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." This is the fruition of the spiritual life.

How do we judge this? With the eyes of the heart, rooted and grounded in Love. Infinite, absolute, Love.

Sounds good to me. However, i do have a question. What if someone said, how do we know the fruit to look for really is love, what if it's hate? lol, what would you tell them?

In hindsight, that post was holding back a little and was somewhat abstract as you say. This is something I shared sometime ago with someone I think describes it more close to the heart:

"I've experienced something very similar. A point in my life of great crisis; an event that took me to the edge of death; a cry of desperation for help out into the utter darkness; white light suddenly appearing everywhere, in an instant driving everything else out that tormented me; a complete cessation of time; infinite peace, infinite love, infinite knowledge, infinite awareness, infinite power, infinite grace and compassion, all in only a sliver of an inconceivable infinity that lay beyond that; and then a gentle voice of infinite compassion and awareness speaking only my name, conveying my life's story before my eyes in an instant of utter timelessness with the knowledge spoken without words to my mind that I was never alone, that was loved beyond all knowledge. Shall I continue?

Rising from this vision I felt all the pain of my heart come gushing out of the deepest part of my soul in a torrent of tears, being both afraid and amazed at what had just happened. Two days later, I began what began my lifelong search for understanding of this. Being raised in a Christian culture, seeking out a minister seemed the most appropriate beginning. I openly shared my experience with wonder and puzzlement in my voice, to the stolid looks of the minister who gave little response. The following day I spoke to another, this time a Catholic priest, who likewise sat with a blank stare and his offering what I learned later to be the typical Catholic response of asking if I had anything to confess.

I left feeling discouraged, lost, and confused, yet with this knowledge in my heart. Suddenly, without any warning or indication, the entire Universe opened to me before my eyes, as if a great curtain opened in an instant. I suddenly saw for the first time in my life - color. The world was full of color, with vibrant greens and blues everywhere! The World was full of light and love and color, and permeated everything as a sort of living joy that surrounded me, moved through me, and began flowing out of the most unimaginably deepest part of my being out into the world in a sort of song, as can only be described as utter, living love.

I saw people walking by me, and rather than feeling darkness and shame in my heart and averting my eyes away as in my past, instead I felt pure love and joy. No thoughts of darkness were in me anywhere at that moment, and I felt truly alive for the first time in my life."
​

I continue on beyond this, but this conveys much more the heart of what that was then. Every time in meditation now, I touch the face of this and it fills my soul.

This sounds nice. Sounds like just bathing in the pressence of God. So, how do you meditate? The reason i ask is because the method of meditation i was using for OBE may be the same or it may be different, i'll let you know if it's the same or not after you tell me how you meditate.

If this is your description of your experience, oh yes. I know this well.

Nice

No. It's complicated to try to categorize it, but pantheism is too limited to go here. If you go to what Jesus said, "I and my Father are One," that becomes much closer. You have to understand what that is first, without trying to rationalize it. It is Unity. "I pray Father that they may be one, even as you and I are one." That.


Already posted it.

So, does this mean we are as close to God as Jesus? Or can we become closer to God then Jesus? Or let me ask you this, who is Jesus to you? Is he God in the flesh, or is he an example of what we have the potential to become and reach the SAME status or even higher status?

 

[Jollybear]

Good.


True. We live in relation with others, and we live in a shared reality with them. To engage them as touchstones is important. To be sure. But people make the mistake, the easy, less fearful approach of relying on others to validate themselves. We have to ultimately stand alone, even though others are part of what makes us who we are. We have to decide. We have to choose.

I agree with this to an extent. Let me explain. I agree we should not seek others to validate ourselves, we should stand alone. We should have confidence in our own intelligent choices, but at the same time, sometimes we may not see something we need to, and that is where others who might see another peace of the puzzle, comes in and corrects us or shows us something, then it's good to hear it, and avaluate it. Even if we don't take it on board, it's still good to look at it and examine what they say INCASE we might have missed something important. Sometimes though another persons criticism is nonsense and sometimes it's valid.

I see God as both outside us, and within us. To look wholly outside ourselves, is to avoid the necessary growth that ultimately leaves us to 'stand' before the Lord, so to speak. We must stand.

Ok...so when we seek God outside ourselves, God shows up and leads us to seek him INSIDE ourselves then?

LOL! Me. I was a fundamentalist at a time in my life. Graduated Bible college top of the class. But like that plant breaking through a concrete slab, what was within had to touch the Sun. I'm an ex-fundamentalist.

Oh, interesting. I was always a truth seeker, studied different religions, and read the bible alot, but sometimes through the years my interpretations of the bible on different subjects changed as i put more thoughtfull reading into it.

That last sentence rang a bell. Was it from the 10 Commandments when Charlton Heston said that as a young Moses?

Now that you mention it, i think he did say it, yes. Did he say it when he was looking at mt sinui talking to the women shaphard? I can't remember exactly.

Knowing who, or what, God is, is an unfolding understanding. Your whole life will be that awakening, should you choose to follow that.

I want to understand everything about God and everything about the universe and existence and i want to understand and unlock every big mystery known to mankind

Remember the scripture that says "if i have a wisdom so great as to fathom all mysteries and all knowledge" < that is a perfect discription of my desire.

 

[Windwalker]

I like this annalogy, i'm going to build on it. Here is what i find the situation to be like. Prayer is great, it's good, so is fasting, so is being a morally good person, and all of that combined is good, but all of that together, i find, in my experience, is limiting. In my experience i find that all of those things, though good, have brought me (a flower) up through the dirt and around some rocks SO FAR, and then it has brought me no further. But i sense, that meditation, will bring the rest of the way up through the ground and into the light.

Yes. Without meditation something is missing. But by the same token, meditation alone is not the only thing you need to do. You have to develop the whole person, body, soul, and spirit. You need to develop the mind, you need to develop your emotional body, you need to develop in relationships, etc. I find that development without soul is lacking, and focus on the soul without developing the rest of ourselves to be unbalanced. Meditation takes all of this and kicks it up on steroids, but if you avoid the other areas to work on in your life, you will only go so far spiritually.

Example, I said to my significant other after I started meditating within the first few weeks, "I feel healed. I didn't even realize how out of balance I was until now. It's like I've just gone through 5 years of intense psychotherapy in just 5 weeks.". But I also spend a great deal of time in other areas of development. I have much to say to this, but can't get lay it all out right now.

The fundamentelist christian (another flower in the same ground as me) says to me "don't do meditation, it's of the devil! it will bring you into the darkness and out of the light, stay away from it!" And if i listen to that, i feel i will be limiting myself and my God given potential.

What is inside you is looking to grow and you are compelled to follow that. Others aren't ready for whatever reason for them. In honesty, if they weren't ready and went in, it may cause them harm. I have, and will say, that those that are going to practice meditation, by themselves particularly, need to have a relatively stable psyche. Someone psychologically unstable shouldn't do this without someone to guide them. They might misinterpret what arises from within their subconscious minds.

Sounds good to me. However, i do have a question. What if someone said, how do we know the fruit to look for really is love, what if it's hate? lol, what would you tell them?

Can an evil tree bear good fruit? It's so simple. Why do people struggle with this? Is it because they confuse how people believe, what clothes they wear, what language they speak, with the fruits of the Spirit?

I know in discussion with fundamentalists I pin them to the wall on this, and ask what bad fruit I bear that makes them judge me as a heretic. It is always something like "the bad fruit of denying Jesus as presented in the Bible", or some such thing. Nowhere in scripture does it say you shall know them by believing like you! There is one, and one qualifier only. Fruits of the spirit. You can profess "correct belief" all you want, if your heart is full of self-obsessed narcissistic rot, your words and actions will follow.

I believe what matters is that Love is served. Not how we judge others by what we think is true. Why do you think Jesus was so firm in his warning to people, "Judge not, lest you be judged"? I believe its because those who do this, are cutting themselves off from God by not listening with the heart! It is a warning to them to not assume they are God, and thus remove themselves from God, which leads to bad fruit in their lives, such as self-righteousness.

This sounds nice. Sounds like just bathing in the pressence of God. So, how do you meditate? The reason i ask is because the method of meditation i was using for OBE may be the same or it may be different, i'll let you know if it's the same or not after you tell me how you meditate.

Oh boy, this isn't easy to answer! If I were to try to categorize it, I'd say its a type of self-guided, devotional, Tantric-style insight meditation. It is largely what simply opened to me, and in learning about the different types of meditation out there after the fact, I see it in different forms and practices. Plus it changes depending on the need.

I'm going to recommend looking over this explanation of the basic types of meditation, and the various stages within them. My meditation is mostly Awareness or Insight meditation as described in the article. He doesn't go into in this, but the Subtle Level can be divided into low subtle and high subtle, and the causal in low and high as well. Most of my time in meditation is the in the high subtle stage, and low casual. I have, and do experience the 'highest' stage he lists as well, which is the Nondual. I spend most of my time in the Subtle as there is much insight to be gained in this sort of exposure. The article: Stages of Meditation | Integral Life

What I specifically do (which varies) is I prepare a sacred space for practice, which sets intention toward the practice. I have some candles I light in a dimmed room. I have a meditation cushion I use and sit cross-legged upon the floor. I use music to focus on the sound and allow my mind to still the active thoughts. This then leads to opening into a quited mind, and things open up from there. It becomes difficult to describe, but it opens into communion, where I listen and follow. It goes from there. My normal meditation time is 60 to 90 minutes each morning. The last 10 minutes are spent grounding this into my being, into the body and mind, bringing what was touched within meditation, into my 'normal' conscious mind. This is the most profound part of the practice, and where transformation of our lives happen; where the rubber meets the road, to give it a metaphor.

So, does this mean we are as close to God as Jesus? Or can we become closer to God then Jesus? Or let me ask you this, who is Jesus to you? Is he God in the flesh, or is he an example of what we have the potential to become and reach the SAME status or even higher status?

A lot of questions in this paragraph. It will take me some time to explain, and perhaps more to apprehend. Let's start with the first.

"Does this mean we are as close to God as Jesus? Or can we become closer to God then Jesus?" There is no such thing as freer than free. If we have that Freedom, then there is no more nor less realization in us as in Jesus. Not knowing that in ourselves, then we are not free, yet. It's not that is is withheld from us. We withhold ourselves from it.

"Who is Jesus to you? Is he God in the flesh, or is he an example of what we have the potential to become and reach the SAME status or even higher status?" Both, but not higher. There is no freer than freedom itself. I've said it many times, that to me to call Jesus brother, is greater than to call him Lord. It is my belief we are to awaken to God in ourselves, and to be God in this world in our unique individual form. "I pray Father that they may be one, even as we are one." It is that same Unity with God in Jesus, that is our calling. "You are the light of the world". How? Unless that light dwells in you, how?

Jesus teaches the way for us to find our way. It is not in instructions of practices, but in spiritual principles teaching the way of Love. To die to self is to rise with that love within us and to become transformed. It is not through following a religion (though that may be helpful in guidance). It is in allowing what is inside us to become what is the good will of God.

Traditional teachings creates this dichotomy, separating God from man, and denying him access. Jesus taught how to break this down. Then Jesus was propped up barring the way. Only Jesus could be one with God now. That is not what Jesus taught, nor is it what my experience shows me. We are to Unite with God, and to realize this within our whole being in this world. Call me a heretic. I'll be in good company.

 

[Windwalker]

I agree with this to an extent. Let me explain. I agree we should not seek others to validate ourselves, we should stand alone. We should have confidence in our own intelligent choices, but at the same time, sometimes we may not see something we need to, and that is where others who might see another peace of the puzzle, comes in and corrects us or shows us something, then it's good to hear it, and avaluate it. Even if we don't take it on board, it's still good to look at it and examine what they say INCASE we might have missed something important. Sometimes though another persons criticism is nonsense and sometimes it's valid.

I think how I said this may have not communicated this. I agree with this. My point was what people do, is to not take responsibility for themselves as externalize the whole thing. "God, do this for me". "Jesus save me", "Do this for me, do that for me. Tell me what to believe." It functions like magic, that if say and do the right things, then the god will perform for you. It doesn't see themselves.

Ok...so when we seek God outside ourselves, God shows up and leads us to seek him INSIDE ourselves then?

It depends. But yes, for me this is often the case. What happens goes like this. In seeing God, we empty ourselves into God. And in so doing, God fill us and we know God within us. We become one with God. We realize that nature of God within ourselves. It is my view, my understanding through experience, that the goal is to understand this nature in ourselves and to live it in the world, and to participate in the divine.

Oh, interesting. I was always a truth seeker, studied different religions, and read the bible alot, but sometimes through the years my interpretations of the bible on different subjects changed as i put more thoughtfull reading into it.

I cannot begin to tell you how verses I've known from the past, arise in meditation glistening with light and meaning that astounds me. The same verses are read aloud in churches, and what follows to talk about them misses its subtle truths by entire worlds.

Now that you mention it, i think he did say it, yes. Did he say it when he was looking at mt sinui talking to the women shaphard? I can't remember exactly.

Yes, that was the scene that come to mind mind as well.

I want to understand everything about God and everything about the universe and existence and i want to understand and unlock every big mystery known to mankind

Remember the scripture that says "if i have a wisdom so great as to fathom all mysteries and all knowledge" < that is a perfect discription of my desire.

Ah, admirable. But understand that it is in not trying to grasp, not trying to understand, that you will!

My favorite verse is from that same book in 1 Cor 13:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known"​

That can be realized in this life, now.

 

[Jollybear]

Yes. Without meditation something is missing. But by the same token, meditation alone is not the only thing you need to do. You have to develop the whole person, body, soul, and spirit. You need to develop the mind, you need to develop your emotional body, you need to develop in relationships, etc. I find that development without soul is lacking, and focus on the soul without developing the rest of ourselves to be unbalanced. Meditation takes all of this and kicks it up on steroids, but if you avoid the other areas to work on in your life, you will only go so far spiritually.

Example, I said to my significant other after I started meditating within the first few weeks, "I feel healed. I didn't even realize how out of balance I was until now. It's like I've just gone through 5 years of intense psychotherapy in just 5 weeks.". But I also spend a great deal of time in other areas of development. I have much to say to this, but can't get lay it all out right now.

I agree with this. God made all areas of life, so all areas need development.

What is inside you is looking to grow and you are compelled to follow that. Others aren't ready for whatever reason for them. In honesty, if they weren't ready and went in, it may cause them harm.

I'm curious as to why it would cause them harm to meditate if they are not ready for it?

I have, and will say, that those that are going to practice meditation, by themselves particularly, need to have a relatively stable psyche. Someone psychologically unstable shouldn't do this without someone to guide them. They might misinterpret what arises from within their subconscious minds.

Elaborate on a stable psyche? And what are the negative effects of misinterpreting something comming from the subconscious mind?

Can an evil tree bear good fruit? It's so simple. Why do people struggle with this? Is it because they confuse how people believe, what clothes they wear, what language they speak, with the fruits of the Spirit?

I know in discussion with fundamentalists I pin them to the wall on this, and ask what bad fruit I bear that makes them judge me as a heretic. It is always something like "the bad fruit of denying Jesus as presented in the Bible", or some such thing. Nowhere in scripture does it say you shall know them by believing like you! There is one, and one qualifier only. Fruits of the spirit. You can profess "correct belief" all you want, if your heart is full of self-obsessed narcissistic rot, your words and actions will follow.

Very true, fully agreed.

I believe what matters is that Love is served. Not how we judge others by what we think is true. Why do you think Jesus was so firm in his warning to people, "Judge not, lest you be judged"? I believe its because those who do this, are cutting themselves off from God by not listening with the heart! It is a warning to them to not assume they are God, and thus remove themselves from God, which leads to bad fruit in their lives, such as self-righteousness.

Well said, fully agreed.

Oh boy, this isn't easy to answer! If I were to try to categorize it, I'd say its a type of self-guided, devotional, Tantric-style insight meditation. It is largely what simply opened to me, and in learning about the different types of meditation out there after the fact, I see it in different forms and practices. Plus it changes depending on the need.

I'm going to recommend looking over this explanation of the basic types of meditation, and the various stages within them. My meditation is mostly Awareness or Insight meditation as described in the article. He doesn't go into in this, but the Subtle Level can be divided into low subtle and high subtle, and the causal in low and high as well. Most of my time in meditation is the in the high subtle stage, and low casual. I have, and do experience the 'highest' stage he lists as well, which is the Nondual. I spend most of my time in the Subtle as there is much insight to be gained in this sort of exposure. The article: Stages of Meditation | Integral Life

What I specifically do (which varies) is I prepare a sacred space for practice, which sets intention toward the practice. I have some candles I light in a dimmed room. I have a meditation cushion I use and sit cross-legged upon the floor. I use music to focus on the sound and allow my mind to still the active thoughts. This then leads to opening into a quited mind, and things open up from there. It becomes difficult to describe, but it opens into communion, where I listen and follow. It goes from there. My normal meditation time is 60 to 90 minutes each morning. The last 10 minutes are spent grounding this into my being, into the body and mind, bringing what was touched within meditation, into my 'normal' conscious mind. This is the most profound part of the practice, and where transformation of our lives happen; where the rubber meets the road, to give it a metaphor.

So when you say after you listen to the sound, which stills the thoughts, then it opens to communion, explain that for me? Explain the opening to communion. Some details?

A lot of questions in this paragraph. It will take me some time to explain, and perhaps more to apprehend. Let's start with the first.

"Does this mean we are as close to God as Jesus? Or can we become closer to God then Jesus?" There is no such thing as freer than free. If we have that Freedom, then there is no more nor less realization in us as in Jesus. Not knowing that in ourselves, then we are not free, yet. It's not that is is withheld from us. We withhold ourselves from it.

"Who is Jesus to you? Is he God in the flesh, or is he an example of what we have the potential to become and reach the SAME status or even higher status?" Both, but not higher. There is no freer than freedom itself. I've said it many times, that to me to call Jesus brother, is greater than to call him Lord. It is my belief we are to awaken to God in ourselves, and to be God in this world in our unique individual form. "I pray Father that they may be one, even as we are one." It is that same Unity with God in Jesus, that is our calling. "You are the light of the world". How? Unless that light dwells in you, how?

I like it.

Jesus teaches the way for us to find our way. It is not in instructions of practices, but in spiritual principles teaching the way of Love. To die to self is to rise with that love within us and to become transformed. It is not through following a religion (though that may be helpful in guidance). It is in allowing what is inside us to become what is the good will of God.

Traditional teachings creates this dichotomy, separating God from man, and denying him access. Jesus taught how to break this down. Then Jesus was propped up barring the way. Only Jesus could be one with God now. That is not what Jesus taught, nor is it what my experience shows me. We are to Unite with God, and to realize this within our whole being in this world. Call me a heretic. I'll be in good company.

This makes sense to me. The only seperation from God, is the seperation from him that we put on ourselves then in other words, Jesus came to teach us how to stop seperating ourselves from him. So instead of failing to do certain practices and that seperating us, it's not that, it's US seperating ourselves by condaming ourselves over failing, or priding ourselves over following the practice?

Im gonna respond to the other one tommorow

 

[Jollybear]

I think how I said this may have not communicated this. I agree with this. My point was what people do, is to not take responsibility for themselves as externalize the whole thing. "God, do this for me". "Jesus save me", "Do this for me, do that for me. Tell me what to believe." It functions like magic, that if say and do the right things, then the god will perform for you. It doesn't see themselves.

I agree with this, this is good. Reminds me of what Jesus often said to poeple "your faith has saved you, your faith has healed you, your faith has made you whole, if YOU have faith the size of a mustard seed you can do not just what was done to the fig tree, but you can say to this mountain move and it will. Peter walked on the water but then when he saw the winds and waves, he sank, jesus pulled him up and said, why did YOU doubt. When they tried to cast out a devil and could not, Jesus said it was because their faith was small. This "faith" thing i don't believe is just a "belief in the head, or believing the right stuff in the head" i think it reffers to actually practicing something far deeper, and i think meditation brings one into what he is talking about. I mean i could say all day long to a fig tree "in the name of Jesus whether, it won't, their has to be something deeper, meditation.

It depends. But yes, for me this is often the case. What happens goes like this. In seeing God, we empty ourselves into God. And in so doing, God fill us and we know God within us. We become one with God. We realize that nature of God within ourselves. It is my view, my understanding through experience, that the goal is to understand this nature in ourselves and to live it in the world, and to participate in the divine.

Sounds good.

I cannot begin to tell you how verses I've known from the past, arise in meditation glistening with light and meaning that astounds me. The same verses are read aloud in churches, and what follows to talk about them misses its subtle truths by entire worlds.

Totally agree. Sorta like how the devil quoted scripture at Jesus, when he did it, their was no "glistening with light and meaning" on it, he missed it's subtle truths by entire worlds. "throw yourself down off the temple, for scripture says God will send his angels to hold you up, so not one foot will dash against a stone".

Yes, that was the scene that come to mind mind as well.

Well, that must be the correct scene in the ten commandments movie then since we both thought of it.

Ah, admirable. But understand that it is in not trying to grasp, not trying to understand, that you will!

Explain more? If i don't persue trying to understand, then i will come to understand?

My favorite verse is from that same book in 1 Cor 13:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known"
​

That can be realized in this life, now.

Totally agree.

 

[Windwalker]

I'm curious as to why it would cause them harm to meditate if they are not ready for it?


Elaborate on a stable psyche? And what are the negative effects of misinterpreting something comming from the subconscious mind?

These are part of the same answer. I think someone who has a psychological imbalance may not be able to integrate what their subconscious mind has to say to them, because they have a split, a disassociation with their deeper inner voice. Something has broken for them psychologically, and to open that without the guidance of a safe 3rd party to help them navigate this terrain can be potentially damaging for them, because they are unprepared to confront face to face that repressed, suppressed parts of themselves.

All that psychotherapy tries to do is to guide someone into that inner space of their own subconscious mind, but it has to be done gradually. They cannot provide 'answers' as those answers lay within the person themselves, if they are to successfully uncover them. It is about self-discovery, and guiding them to that place. But this is in the setting of a therapy session for those who are in some state of manifest dysfunction or pathology. To go into meditation in the deep areas beyond mere 'relaxation', is to take you into that part of yourself that is hidden from view, yet always there, always communicating with you.

And so when I say you have to have a relatively stable psyche, it means you are in a place where, even though what you may confront may be jarring, or even frightening, you are of such a mind and overall state that you can handle, or deal with, what is exposed. Someone broken or unstable may not be. Not having enough basic footing, or stability in their lives, may lead to not being able to handle what they see.

Hence, the response of fundamentalists expressing their own innate fear of facing what is in that deep as "Satan". It's their face they put on their own sense of fear of what lays in their own psyche. It is in fact, probably better for them to not go there, if they have no one trustworthy to help guide them into themselves in a path of self-awareness.

So when you say after you listen to the sound, which stills the thoughts, then it opens to communion, explain that for me? Explain the opening to communion. Some details?

I hesitate, because you should not enter into those spaces looking for this or for that to happen. When you do, you miss it. I say this as one with experience!

Let me share something with you that is to me the most important thing to understand about this whole process. Mediation, effective meditation, consists of two things:

1. Intention. Every thing you do, your purpose for the practice, must rest on your intention. It is the touchstone that keep you present, that brings you back, the sets your course. "I want to know God", for instance. When you drift in meditation, come back to your intention. Keep yourself there. Etc.

2. Have no expectations. Do not look for this or that result!! Do not look for end results. Do not say, 'this worked yesterday, it's not today, what's wrong?'. When you have expectation, or anticipations, or hopes, or wishes, or desires, or longings, or needs, etc., etc., you are focusing on yourself! As the focus shifts from God to you, God recedes, or rather you took your eyes off God. You receded.

It is a hair's-breadth line between your desire for your needs, and your desire for God. Who are you looking at? Let that be your focus. And from there, from that simple, yet extraordinary difficult division between the intent of that desire, results in experiencing God as God, or experiencing the needs of yourself in your searching.

"Seek and you shall find", is not you seeking because you want this for yourself. It is seeking for God, as God, for the sake of God. You do that, you will find.

 

[satori8]

I believe if you are traveling into the spirit realm via astral projection then you are already violating God's warnings and directions concerning how a person must approach Him and understand spiritual realities...through Jesus Christ alone according to the scriptures. Therefore any other testing is in vain and futile. By entering the spiritual realm by a different means you have placed yourself outside of God's protection and discernment leaving yourself open to deception.

I have never seen anything Biblical which does not allow astral projection. I believe we do this naturally. The Dalai Lama calls it lucid dreaming.

Many people do it naturally without having control over it. The mind is a very powerful thing, and not all people can control what it does when we sleep.