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How would an Historical JC be Defined?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
These statistics may be a bit misleading.

Which ones? I used more than one model. At best treating the NT as the sample space enables a few statistical techniques that provide support for better models (like real Bayesian statistics).
It is not just about frequency of occurrences in a corpus

Contrary to your assumption, I am not so completely inept I would use a frequency analysis rather than at least one adequate statistical analysis. I work with multivariate models and statistics quite a bit. But you asked me to leave out details, and simply listing names like "pattern theory" or "permutation tests" is worthless. So now, without details, you can dismiss evidence.


Carrier bases part of his argument on...pleonism and what he calls "variatio". That is, people were taught to insert such changes in phrasing occasionally...but he is an expert, and he linked to materials to back his point.
1) Here's Carrier: "Paul will be expected to mostly use just “brother,” when it can be understood from context what he means, because ancient writers understood that pleonasm was to be avoided unless it served a purpose; but such a purpose could include the equally admired practice of variatio, an element of ancient rhetorical style (to occasionally change your idiom)."


Here's Carrier on Paul's purpose: "Possibly he means only “I met no other apostle except brother James” simply for rhetorical variation, but avoids the intimate abbreviation “brother” and inputs the coldly formal pleonasm instead, possibly even to emphasize his lack of intimacy with James."

His statement about "ancient writers understood" is based on ancient rhetorical theory. So first we have to assume Paul was trained in rhetoric, and then we assume an ad hoc reason about a "coldly formal pleonasm".

2) He responds here to a question about expecting more uses "brothers of the lord" with

"We wouldn’t expect there to be. This would have been common knowledge to him and his readers and thus never require explicitly stating it. To the contrary, the evidence we have, is basically the kind of evidence we would expect to have (see my comments on the stylistic issue and the matter of avoiding fastidiousness and pleonasm in particular)."

Here's a definition of pleonasm (see sect. 2.1).

There is are several books (e.g., here) that analyze texts where we find pleonasm or something very similar. Basically, if there are regular ways of saying something, and we find one that adds more than needed, we should always see what might motivate the irregularity.

Carrier does. He makes one up.

3) He isn't the expert here. He's an expert on ancient rhetorical theory, but pleonasm isn't a part of rhetorical theory. The OED gives the earliest sense of the word as "Catalan pleonasme (14th cent.)", and etymologically traces to post-classical Latin.


He's dealing with the semantics of pleonasm in linguistic theories (see e.g., the paper I linked to with the definition). He's not a linguist, and as the semantic approaches range from register to being pretty much replaced by markedness theories, he is outside of his realm of expertise. Moreover, his explanation of this semantic pleonasm is ad hoc and contradicts his own description elsewhere.

He also raised the same point that occurred to me that it could have been a simple interpolation, which would be undetectable.
Why would it be undetectable? He published a paper on the "interpolation" of AJ 20.200.
The line:
{ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων} οὐκ εἶδον, εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ κυρίου

If we remove the "except James" clause, we have problems.
The first clause is unnecessarily complicated. The brackets are an NP that by itself is odd. It says "other of the apostles", adding a "other" and the necessary genitive it heads, instead of just using a direct object: "I didn't see any apostles". The other clause, which is grammatically complex, makes the first needed (or, rather, with both clauses the first now makes sense). Now Paul is emphasizing that he didn't see any apostles while with Peter except James. Both clauses are tightly linked to one another grammatically and stylistically, so the whole line would have to go.

But were that the case, why not just insert "I saw James"? Why insert two clauses coordinated in a rather complex way that make sense in context but aren't needed for an interpolator? If we cut out the "brother" part, we loose the ability know which James Paul refers to, and we still have a grammatically complex line which only makes sense in context.

Finally, there's the issue of manuscript traditions. By the time we have our earliest manuscript evidence, there were many, many more manuscripts and belonging to varying manuscript traditions/families. So if there was interpolation, it would mean that several scribes behind our manuscript families independently changed the line in exactly the same way. And all did so despite the fact that James being Jesus' brother was a hugely contentious issue among Christians from Paul to today.

He also pointed out that Paul's singular claim of James' kinship was at odds with Acts and other Gospels, Mark having only mentioned it briefly.

Which is kind of odd if your interpolation theory is correct. Why not insert more instances of James the brother? Also, the gospels depict a mostly hostile relationship between Jesus and his family, but to go into that would mean details. Let me know if you want them.




I don't see the relevance of that point to this discussion.
In the same text and dealing with the same topic, he first states that he has a command which he says is not his but the Lord's, and then later states he has a command and is careful to say it is not from the Lord. On yet another matter he states he "has no command from the Lord". If Jesus never existed, we're left Paul receiving commands from a heavenly Jesus, but he chose the wrong cell phone service. If Jesus did exist, and Paul was aware of a historical Jesus' stance on divorce independently attested to in Mark and Q, we don't need resort to Paul having bad reception.
You and I can only guess
We do, however, have enormous amounts of evidence on the problems with James as brother (including references to Paul showing that he did say this). The record is littered with the issue all relating to Mary's virginity. However, evidence becomes guesses when one is trying to explain away evidence rather than act like a historian.

But here you admit that even these early church figures were not as sure about the interpretation of Paul as you and other modern scholars are.
Amusing.

Early Christians: Mary was a perpetual virgin ergo James can't be his biological brother. Find ways to explain away all the evidence to the contrary.
Mythicists: Jesus wasn't historical ergo James can't be his biological brother. Find ways to explain away all evidence to the contrary.

You want to compare modern scholarship to those like Eusebius. For brevity, 1 example: Meier is a catholic priest who's written 4 volumes on the historical Jesus. In one, he says there simply isn't any good reason for thinking that the Catholic church's stance is correct. He denies his own religious beliefs when using a historical perspective. Mythicists, on the other hand, have a lot in common in their approach to history and with that of the early Christians.



rank speculation and tortured logic.

That's one sentence from his study. You don't know the logic used because I have to leave out details. Which means you get to malign Freyne and his "rank speculation" without any clue what his evidence is.


I do not agree with your generalizations about Carrier
I compared 2 things: His historical methods for Jesus/early Christianity, and his treatment of ancient history apart from these. Have you read any of the latter? If not, your disagreement is nothing more than saying "I disagree with your comparison between some stuff I do know, and how it relates stuff I don't".
 
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Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I doubt his existence to a certain degree but my personal opinion of Jesus was that he was a wandering individual who was a heretic to the Judaic orthodoxy and he was murdered for his heresy and upsetting the orthodoxy of Judaism and a cult was spun around him and myths formed.
This lead to the meshing of a religion being formed around him.
I do not have hostility towards Jesus but I merely view him as a victim of a bad era. Killed for disturbing the peace.....his actions resonate with me on a personal level as I would have done the same. :D
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Too many details, outhouse. I think you need to eliminate some of those details.


The 3 apostles is not known I agree. But the NT centers itself around these characters, and is almost completely silent on all others.

The 12 is probably aligning OT prophecy and they would have looked like a militant group and or starved living off others hospitality, since they were targeting the poor.

That makes 3 the likely number and plausible by cultural anthropology of poor villages.


Body thrown in a pit, is also unknown, but it is highly probable.


Most scholars claim two facts, his death on a cross, and his baptism by JtB




Your welcome to study and make your own complete hypothesis, I think you could do better then most.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You've got me.........!

I don't know...... maybe one of the academics can answer this.

I hope that they can.....


There is a tipping of furniture in the OT, that this could come from.


had Jesus tipped a table, a armed guard would have had him and if Jesus had help the teller would have wrestled him to the ground.

With crowds of 400,000 these were not open air tables where one could casually tip them over out of anger.




The legend could originate because this was gods very own house, and the temple currency were silver coins with the pagan deity Melqart on them.


Talk about Hellenistic corruption!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Real Jews would have been HOT over this, and the legends may reflect this heat more so then what actually happened.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I doubt his existence to a certain degree but my personal opinion of Jesus was that he was a wandering individual who was a heretic to the Judaic orthodoxy and he was murdered for his heresy and upsetting the orthodoxy of Judaism and a cult was spun around him and myths formed.
This lead to the meshing of a religion being formed around him.
I do not have hostility towards Jesus but I merely view him as a victim of a bad era. Killed for disturbing the peace.....his actions resonate with me on a personal level as I would have done the same. :D

By your post it looks like you don't understand a single thing about first century Judaism.

There was no real Judaic orthodoxy. It was a religion more wide and diverse then it ever has been.


Jesus movement was squarely in Judaism as good as it ever gets.


What heresy did he commit?

Which particular sect looked down upon him?

The Saducees used money that had pagan deities on it!

The Pharisees were divided as well, even with Hellenism and used Roman muscle to extort tithes and rob the people blind for what ever they could take.

The Essenes stayed out and did their own thing, and far more diverse beliefs then anything a Jesus may have come up with.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
By your post it looks like you don't understand a single thing about first century Judaism.

There was no real Judaic orthodoxy. It was a religion more wide and diverse then it ever has been.


Jesus movement was squarely in Judaism as good as it ever gets.


What heresy did he commit?

Which particular sect looked down upon him?

The Saducees used money that had pagan deities on it!

The Pharisees were divided as well, even with Hellenism and used Roman muscle to extort tithes and rob the people blind for what ever they could take.

The Essenes stayed out and did their own thing, and far more diverse beliefs then anything a Jesus may have come up with.

You must really not know Judaism do you? Jesus's greatest heresy was anthropolatry. Jews anthropomorphizetheir god to some degree but not in the extent of what Christians have done. If Jesus did not teach heresy then why is there such a massive rejection of his teachings through history?
The Jews just huddled together and rejected the teachings for no reason
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
To my mind, the miracle-working gospel Jesus was blatantly fictional.
To my mind, the miracle-working gospel Jesus was so good at healing, possibly with herbal knowledge, auto-suggestion, manipulation and what would one day become psychotherapy that the people who witnessed his works were stunned. It was they who used phrases such as 'miraculous', 'heaven sent', etc and the oral tradition expanded upon hyperbole. = a real Jesus.
We still hear people describing others in this way, today! Only in those days the highly superstitious working people magnified it all so much more.

The question to me is whether the fictional gospel Jesus was derived from an historical person such as the Teacher of Righteousness or Judas the Galilean or some other person, or was JC a composite of historical and/or mythological people?
Judas the Galilean, son of Hezekiah (Ezekias?) didn't heal, didn't advocate passive resistance, didn't teach (like jesus did), probably wasn't a stoic....... Judas wanted royal status and wealth? Different?

Who was 'The Teacher of Righteousness?'

..................Teacher of Righteousness or Judas the Galilean or some other person................
........or any other person? :D
 

steeltoes

Junior member
The 3 apostles is not known I agree. But the NT centers itself around these characters, and is almost completely silent on all others.

The 12 is probably aligning OT prophecy and they would have looked like a militant group and or starved living off others hospitality, since they were targeting the poor.

That makes 3 the likely number and plausible by cultural anthropology of poor villages.


Body thrown in a pit, is also unknown, but it is highly probable.


Most scholars claim two facts, his death on a cross, and his baptism by JtB




Your welcome to study and make your own complete hypothesis, I think you could do better then most.

I get a kick out of those facts. How do scholars know that this baptism and death on a cross took place? Are these faith based beliefs or are these so called facts drawn from evidence based conclusions?

What makes you believe?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I get a kick out of those facts. How do scholars know that this baptism and death on a cross took place? Are these faith based beliefs or are these so called facts drawn from evidence based conclusions?

What makes you believe?


lets look at both.

Cross

Water dunked by JtB.


The cross was the worst most horrible way to die. It is also what Romans would do if you screwed with their money at Passover. It was a embarrassment to write your leaders mythology in such a fashion. It would also make your death much more public and well known to the multitudes of Passover attendants.

The Martyred man at Passover killed by Romans under Pilates authority, makes the most sense out of something remembered so well.

If you have done any study at all you would know we have quite the details from previous and later Passovers from this time period.

How about the old man that was trampled to death at the crowded Passover

Or, how about the Roman guard that pulled his junk out and ticked the Jews off and started a riot killing tens of thousands.

Details from past Passovers, show this story to be right in line with history 100%.




JTB

Well that is just a embarrassment to say that gods son had to be taught by someone else. Why add it?, it brings the "human" nature of a Galilean peasant in a very embarrassing way, then we see later authors trying to cover up this "first version" trying to negate it.

Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These are not apologist spreading theology

Despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts.[45][46] James Dunn states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical facts" that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus.[45]




Scholarly agreement on the crucifixion of Jesus by Pontius Pilate is widespread, and most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[107][108][109][110] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[111] Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[109] John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[107] John P. Meier views the crucifixion of Jesus as historical fact and states that based on the criterion of embarrassment Christians would not have invented the painful death of their leader.[110] Meier states that a number of other criteria, e.g. the criterion of multiple attestation (i.e. confirmation by more than one source), the criterion of coherence (i.e. that it fits with other historical elements) and the criterion of rejection (i.e. that it is not disputed by ancient sources) help establish the crucifixion of Jesus as a historical event.[112]



The existence of John the Baptist within the same time frame as Jesus, and his eventual execution by Herod Antipas is attested to by first century historian Josephus and the overwhelming majority of modern scholars view Josephus' accounts of the activities of John the Baptist as authentic.[114][115] One of the arguments in favor of the historicity of the Baptism of Jesus by John is that it is a story which the early Christian Church would have never wanted to invent, typically referred to as the criterion of embarrassment in historical analysis.[116][117][118] The four gospels are not the only references to the baptisms performed by John and in Acts 10:37-38, the apostle Peter refers to how the ministry of Jesus followed "the baptism which John preached".[119] Another argument used in favour of the historicity of the baptism is that multiple accounts refer to it, usually called the criterion of multiple attestation.[120] Technically, multiple attestation does not guarantee authenticity, but only determines antiquity.[121] However, for most scholars, together with the criterion of embarrassment it lends credibility to the baptism of Jesus by John being a historical event.[120][122][123][124]
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You must really not know Judaism do you?


:slap: looking in a mirror.


Jesus's greatest heresy was anthropolatry.


:facepalm:

Really?

What man did he worship


Jews anthropomorphizetheir god to some degree but not in the extent of what Christians have done.


:facepalm:


Really?

You think the concept of Yahweh can be explained the best as Jews looked at him as a man. But not like dem dar Christians?


If Jesus did not teach heresy then why is there such a massive rejection of his teachings through history?


:facepalm:


The most popular religion in the world was rejected?


The Jews just huddled together and rejected the teachings for no reason


You don't know the first thing about first century Judaism.

Which Jews rejected his teaching, those in Galilee he healed?

Or the Hellenistic elite who ran the temple who followed a version of Judaism hated by almost all Jews?

:facepalm:




Please learn about the topics you wish to debate.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
"These are not apologist spreading theology"


No? But the following would make for great headlines



Breaking News


This just in from wiki:



The life of Jesus command almost universal assent...


Scholarly agreement is widespread...


baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts...


scholars consider the crucifixion indisputable....


it is now "firmly established" ...


Bart Ehrman is the most certain...


John Dominic Crossan as certain as any historical fact can be...


John P. Meier crucifixion of Jesus as historical fact...


All facts, because our criteria tells us that they could not have made this **** up.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
I have posted my hypothesis of what happened.

Your welcome to make a replacement hypothesis of your own and then see how well it stands or falls.

If your was good enough it could change my mind. So far I have not seen one that explains the evidence were left with.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
I have posted my hypothesis of what happened.

Your welcome to make a replacement hypothesis of your own and then see how well it stands or falls.

If your was good enough it could change my mind. So far I have not seen one that explains the evidence were left with.


You simply believe it happened and it's indisputable according to your wiki link, who can argue with that? Once it has been decided what is embarrasing there is nothing to do but write Jesus into the historical record. Criteria of Embarrassment tells us they could not have made this **** up so there is no contest, it's game over. Nothing left to do but heap abuse on those whose arrow goes the wrong way.


My personal favorite: criterion of rejection (i.e. that it is not disputed by ancient sources)

Like how Herod demanding the slaughtering of all the babies in Bethlehem upon hearing of the birth of Jesus was disputed by ancient sources.:rolleyes:
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You simply believe it happened and it's indisputable according to your wiki link, who can argue with that? Once it has been decided what is embarrasing there is nothing to do but write Jesus into the historical record. Criteria of Embarrassment tells us they could not have made this **** up so there is no contest, it's game over. Nothing left to do but heap abuse on those whose arrow goes the wrong way.


My personal favorite: criterion of rejection (i.e. that it is not disputed by ancient sources)

Like how Herod demanding the slaughtering of all the babies in Bethlehem upon hearing of the birth of Jesus was disputed by ancient sources.:rolleyes:


So when does using mythology in theology, mean it is 100% mythology.


Again, anyone with any amount of education can criticize a hypothesis, making their own that "stands" is what separates the players.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
So when does using mythology in theology, mean it is 100% mythology.


Again, anyone with any amount of education can criticize a hypothesis, making their own that "stands" is what separates the players.


Since when does what you dream up "stand" outside of your mind? No one has found anything to corroborate a word of the gospel story, it has simply been believed just as it is believed today.

Was Jesus in any way historical? Perhaps, perhaps not. The story was not written in such a way that we can discern actual events from non actual and I do not have a problem with not knowing.
 

Jonathan Hoffman

Active Member
This recalls the theme of the OP--how does one define a historical JC? How much reality does there have to remain to the story for us to say that there was such a historical person? Speaking for myself, I suppose that it would just have to be a person crucified by Pontius Pilate who triggered the birth of a new messianic cult. He doesn't have to have had any brothers or disciples or come from Nazareth or even gone around the country preaching wisdom to people. As you can see, I have very low standards. :)

Copernicus,
I really like your post!!!
Because I am trying to find the quintessential kernel for the source of the JC saga. (Kinda like tracing mythical Santa Claus back to the historical Saint Nicholas.)

IMO, the historical source for the hyperbolic JC character must be an historical person of that era who cleansed the Temple, preached against the Herodian collaborators of Rome and was later killed for doing so. IMO, this eliminates a pacifist Jesus who would be no threat to anybody. (This means the pacifist Jesus was an interpolation.) What remains are people like the Teacher of Righteousness from Qumran or various Jewish rebels like Judas the Galilean or others who were trying to throw off the yoke of the Romans.

Thank you for returning to address the OP.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Since when does what you dream up "stand" outside of your mind? No one has found anything to corroborate a word of the gospel story, it has simply been believed just as it is believed today.

Was Jesus in any way historical? Perhaps, perhaps not. The story was not written in such a way that we can discern actual events from non actual and I do not have a problem with not knowing.


You cant even write a replacement hypothesis, because once you start, you realize a mythical Jesus doesn't make sense. You cant even fathom how it started in mythology while keeping the evidence we have.

Most mythers only attack blindly, and promote a mythical view without explaining it, and trying to trash the evidence they disagree with.


I think your better then that. Create a replacement hypothesis, or admit your making this way more complicated then it really is.


Because as it stands nothing makes more sense then a martyred man at Passover.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
No one has found anything to corroborate a word of the gospel story, . .

False and you know it.

Pilate lived
Roman occupation
Galilee was there
Corruption in the temple
Diversity of Judaism
Hellensitic Judaism
Proselytes


it has simply been believed just as it is believed today

Who cares what is believed! and what does that have with the price of tea in china?

This is a ignorant statement of desperation, the likes of "all Historians are apologetically biased" and you know that is horse pucky but you threw it in the ring without thinking about what you post.

When did you ever care what apologist think?

Was Jesus in any way historical?

Most probable, with a very high degree of certainty to the point those unbiased scholars are almost unanimous on this.


The story was not written in such a way that we can discern actual events from non actual and I do not have a problem with not knowing

There is a hell of a lot of actual history that comes from these very text.


They are a very detailed window into the past 2000 years ago.

Your just taking everything out of context using bias worse then apologist views, using your poor methodology. Its these statements your making that are placing question marks on your methodology more so then the end result you desire.

You have to take this into context, this is a Hellenistic retelling of a legend something ancient Proselytes lived and died for. This wasn't some mythical game to these poor people, it was their very lives that they staked on these writings.

Because the people of this time lived in mythology through and through, for health care, to marriage, to every aspect of their ancient and ignorant lives because they didn't know any better. Doesn't mean that they created mythology to explain all of their reality.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Copernicus,
I really like your post!!!
Because I am trying to find the quintessential kernel for the source of the JC saga. (Kinda like tracing mythical Santa Claus back to the historical Saint Nicholas.)

IMO, the historical source for the hyperbolic JC character must be an historical person of that era who cleansed the Temple, preached against the Herodian collaborators of Rome and was later killed for doing so. IMO, this eliminates a pacifist Jesus who would be no threat to anybody. (This means the pacifist Jesus was an interpolation.) What remains are people like the Teacher of Righteousness from Qumran or various Jewish rebels like Judas the Galilean or others who were trying to throw off the yoke of the Romans.

Thank you for returning to address the OP.

:clap


Best post I have seen you write.
 
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