What is Dharma?

[kaisersose]

You said that 4 of the six darshanas have nothing to do with Veda (implying unvedic).

Have you read any of them? Please point out where Nyaya sutras, Vaisesika sutras, Sankhya karikas and Yoga sutras or their earliest Bhashyas use the Veda as basis.

You said shiva was not mentioned in Veda (implying that all scripture related to shiva unvedic).

Wrong. I said Shiva is not mentioned in the Veda. It is common knowledge that Shiva is identified with the Vedic Rudra, but the identification is not from the Veda. Nowhere in the Veda is Shiva used as a proper noun (unlike Rudra) and it is not just Vaishnavas, but Smartha scholars like Shankara too did not interpret Siva in the Veda as a proper noun.

You said Tirumantiram has no basis in Veda (implying unvedic).

What is the Tirumantiram and where did I talk about it?

You said: I would perfectly be in line, if I wrote up a scripture tomorrow, explicitly rejecting the Veda. I would still be Hindu and so would my scripture(implying unvedic scripture that holds Veda as fallible will be considered Hindu scripture).

If you disagree, please provide evidence. Where is the authority that says such a position is not Hindu? And please be specific.

You opined several other things, which to me implies that you hold that scriptures that hindus use are unvedic (or do not consider Veda infallible).

You are wrong about that. Either you did not read my posts or you just did not get them. In this entire thread, I never raised any question on the Itihasa, Purana or Upanishads. Yet, you came up with "any scriptural saying that the darshanas, upanishads, puranas, and itihasa are unvedic.".

I request evidence (and not opinion) in form of a) any Hindu teacher's teaching or b) any scriptural saying that the darshanas, upanishads, puranas, and itihasa have no basis in Veda.

Nothing has to be proved, because no one has made such a claim. You can challenge me on this, if you can prove I made such a claim.

I hold that all six darshanas hold Veda as infallible.

This statement demonstrates that you have no clue about them. Shankara criticized Sankhya in the Sutra Bhashya as a flawed doctrine (his specific crticism is on Sankhya tenets having no basis in the Veda). He also criticized Purva Mimamsa - which forms the bulk of his polemics. Evidently then, it is no general rule or requirement that one accepts all darshanas as infallible.

Purana, itihAsa, and bhakti scriptures like periyapuranam etc., are all derived and rooted in Veda, which is considered by teachers the central revealed scripture of Sanatana Dharma.

This point is moot again, for the same reasons as above.

Three things -

1. Please take the time to read at least a primer on Sankhya (especially Nirishwara or atheist Sankhya), Vaisesika, Nyaya
2. Be sure to actually read my posts before responding to them.
3. And it would help if you avoid generalizations.

Thanks

 

[atanu]

3. And it would help if you avoid generalizations.

Thanks

Hello Kaiser

I choose not to answer you, because your idea is misplaced at the root. I have not requested you you to question my scholarship, which is minimal, i agree. I asked you to provide evidence from scripture or from teachers.

(Indian philosophy, as listed in Sarva Darsana Samgraha is made up of 16 streams, of which Atheism, possibly followed by you, is one. It is a philosophy but it is not Hindu Dharma, which without doubt, in my mind, is characterised by agreement to the infallibilty of Veda. Hindu dharma is what Hindu dharma teachers consider to be Hindu Dharma and not any personal opinion.

Along with Buddhism, Jainsim, and Sikhism, Lokayata is not Hindu Dharma. But surely all of these are part of Indian philosophy from primeval time.

You must distinguish between Hindu Dharma and Indian Darshana (philosophy). Buddhism is very much a part of Indian darsana, yet it is not Hindu Dharma.

Best Wishes. Hoping that you will distinguish.)

Thanks

 

[beenie]

** Mod Post **

This thread has been moved to General Religious Debates​

 

[Straw Dog]

What is Dharma?

There are dharmas and there is Dharma beyond dharma. It has something to do with the way of play, but the rules are amenable.

 

[Union jack]

Daena (din in modern Persian) is the eternal Law, whose order was revealed to humanity through the Mathra-Spenta ("Holy Words"). Daena has been used to mean religion, faith, law, and even as a translation for the Hindu and Buddhist term Dharma. The latter is often interpreted as "duty" but can also mean social order, right conduct, or virtue. The metaphor of the "path" of Daena is represented in Zoroastrianism by the muslin undershirt Sudra, the "Good/Holy Path", and the 72-thread Kushti girdle, the "Pathfinder".

from Zoroastrianism-wiki'

 

[paarsurrey]

What is Dharma?

It is religion.

 

[Ashoka]

In contrast, adharma is evil and unrighteousness. If Dharma is eternal law and truth, then adharma is injustice and lies.

Namaskar

 

[paarsurrey]

In contrast, adharma is evil and unrighteousness. If Dharma is eternal law and truth, then adharma is injustice and lies.

Namaskar

I agree with you.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram paarsurrey and shivoham :namaste

It is religion.

jai jai , it is religion , .....because religion upholds order , ...thus 'sanatana' dharma

is 'eternal' religion or the 'eternal religious principles' which uphold order .

dharma is also 'law' , that which is in accordance with the true nature of reality .

to break that law is to allow the harmony of natural order to be broken
dharma is also duty , and adharma is to go against that duty .

Originally Posted by Shivoham
In contrast, adharma is evil and unrighteousness. If Dharma is eternal law and truth, then adharma is injustice and lies.

Namaskar

it is true that adharma is evil and that it is unrighteous , but it is more than injustice and lies ,

adharma is 'against' order , against harmony ,... dharma it self is 'law' ., '
we then have our own individual dharmas (duty), the role we must play in supporting order , to go against dharma it self is unrighteous , and to go against ones personal dharma is equaly unjust ,

so dharma it is religion , law and duty , both on a personal and a cosmic level .:namaste

buddhists tend to use the term dharma , dhamma , or buddha dharma to refer to the teachings or the word of the buddha , this sometimes causes confussion but in truth it refers to the same truth , ......'that which upholds', ..'maintains and supports' the natural cosmic order . ...and the same adharma , .. that which goes 'against '

 

[paarsurrey]

namaskaram paarsurrey and shivoham :namaste



jai jai , it is religion , .....because religion upholds order , ...thus 'sanatana' dharma

is 'eternal' religion or the 'eternal religious principles' which uphold order .

dharma is also 'law' , that which is in accordance with the true nature of reality .

to break that law is to allow the harmony of natural order to be broken
dharma is also duty , and adharma is to go against that duty .

it is true that adharma is evil and that it is unrighteous , but it is more than injustice and lies ,

adharma is 'against' order , against harmony ,... dharma it self is 'law' ., '
we then have our own individual dharmas (duty), the role we must play in supporting order , to go against dharma it self is unrighteous , and to go against ones personal dharma is equaly unjust ,

so dharma it is religion , law and duty , both on a personal and a cosmic level .:namaste

buddhists tend to use the term dharma , dhamma , or buddha dharma to refer to the teachings or the word of the buddha , this sometimes causes confussion but in truth it refers to the same truth , ......'that which upholds', ..'maintains and supports' the natural cosmic order . ...and the same adharma , .. that which goes 'against '

I appreciate and agree with you.

 

[John Martin]

What is Dharma?

The word dharma comes from the Hindu tradition. It comes from the root dhr which means to hold. It is like a hub of a wheel that holds the spokes. Dharma is equivalent to God, because God holds the whole of creation as a hub holds the spokes. God is also called sanathana dharma, eternal principle that holds the creation, in the past,in the present and in the future. Creation has its own dharma. It is to be dependent on God and unfold its nature. Earth has its dharma, Sun has its dharma, moon has its dharma, plants have their dharma;animals have their and human beings have their dharma. The dharma of creatures is to unfold life. The dharma of human beings is to be 'fruitful and multiply'. It means to unfold life( as opposite to become). It is to manifest divine attributes of love and compassion in human relationships. What makes human beings different from the other creatures is that they have the possibility to forget their dharma and also to remember. When they forget their dharma then they take up the path of becoming, adharma, the path of ego. When this happens then there is imbalance within oneself; in one's relationship with God and with one another. When they remember their dharma , the harmony is reestablished. When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they took the path of adharma. All the prophets, all sages, all avatars,all scriptures invite people to renounce adharma and come back to their original dharma. They invite people to remember their dharma and shun adharma.

 

[paarsurrey]

The word dharma comes from the Hindu tradition. It comes from the root dhr which means to hold. It is like a hub of a wheel that holds the spokes. Dharma is equivalent to God, because God holds the whole of creation as a hub holds the spokes. God is also called sanathana dharma, eternal principle that holds the creation, in the past,in the present and in the future. Creation has its own dharma. It is to be dependent on God and unfold its nature. Earth has its dharma, Sun has its dharma, moon has its dharma, plants have their dharma;animals have their and human beings have their dharma. The dharma of creatures is to unfold life. The dharma of human beings is to be 'fruitful and multiply'. It means to unfold life( as opposite to become). It is to manifest divine attributes of love and compassion in human relationships. What makes human beings different from the other creatures is that they have the possibility to forget their dharma and also to remember. When they forget their dharma then they take up the path of becoming, adharma, the path of ego. When this happens then there is imbalance within oneself; in one's relationship with God and with one another. All the prophets, all sages, all avatars,all scriptures invite people to renounce adharma and come back to their original dharma. They invite people to remember their dharma and shun adharma.

I appreciate and agree with you.
Can you please quote the scriptures you believe the points mentioned by you in your post ; and the reasons given by the scriptures you believe?

 

[John Martin]

I appreciate and agree with you.
Can you please quote the scriptures you believe the points mentioned by you in your post ; and the reasons given by the scriptures you believe?

Jesus Christ said: first of all seek you the kingdom of God( rule of God) and its righteousness(dharma) and all things will be given unto you( Mathew 6.33)
The Kingdom of God is at hand,repent(Mark 1.14-15). To follow the Dharma of God is to follow our own dharma. This kingdom of God is within us, our own true nature. Repentance is to shun adharma( ignorance) and come back to dharma, one's own true nature.

“Certainly whenever a decline of dharma occurs, O Bharata [Arjuna], and an uprising of adharma, I then manifest My Self. To deliver the saintly and vanquish the evil-doers, to reestablish dharma, I appear in every age.” (Bg. 4.7- 8)The Bhagavat Gita.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram :namaste

The word dharma comes from the Hindu tradition. It comes from the root dhr which means to hold. It is like a hub of a wheel that holds the spokes.

please excuse my wishing to clarify a little , ....to hold in the sence of 'Support ' this is a very important difference
Dharman : to 'Support' .

in Hinduism and Buddhism the analogy of a wheel is often used to signify Dharma , eternaly in motion without begining and without end .
Buddha set in motion the wheel of law (Dharma), the rim of the wheel is 'supported' evenly by the spokes which in buddhist icinography relate to the principles encompased in the eight fold path , ...

1. Right thought ,
2. right speach ,
3. Right action ,
4. Right livelihood ,
5. Right endeavor ,
6. Right mindfulness , and
7. Right meditation .

in the same way there are pillars of sanatana dharma , which 'support' ,which 'uphold' religion .



1. Austerity ; Tapas ,
2. Purity ; Saucham ,
3. Compassion ; Daya ,
4. Truthfulness ; Satyam .

Dharma is equivalent to God, because God holds the whole of creation as a hub holds the spokes. God is also called sanathana dharma, eternal principle that holds the creation,in the past,in the present and in the future.

Dharma is on one hand the divine law , there for it is Satyam , Truth , , the cosmic law , creation is it self a part of the eternal cycle that is the cosmic law ,

but the Dharma that holds is 'Duty ' the Dharma that supports , ..this is our Dharma .

Creation has its own dharma. It is to be dependent on God and unfold its nature. Earth has its dharma, Sun has its dharma, moon has its dharma, plants have their dharma;animals have their and human beings have their dharma. The dharma of creatures is to unfold life. The dharma of human beings is to be 'fruitful and multiply'.

excuse me , but this is begining to sound a little to abrahamic in its understanding ,

Creation is the divine order it dosent have Dharma in the sence that we have Dharma as in duty , ...Creation is Dharma , as in unalterable 'Law'

The dharma of human beings is to be 'fruitful and multiply'. It means to unfold life( as opposite to become). It is to manifest divine attributes of love and compassion in human relationships.

the Dharma of the human being is to act in accordance with the divine order , to facilitate God consciousness and Liberation .living in a just manner is merely a requirement of this temporary state of being .
rather than manifesting love and compassion ones dharma dictates 'Rightiousness' love and compassion may be a part of that rightiousness but adove all Rightiousness is supreme .

What makes human beings different from the other creatures is that they have the possibility to forget their dharma and also to remember.

'Discrimination' , we posess the ability to discriminate there fore our dharma is to use this quality for god realisation , for liberation , an animal does not posses human discrimination , therefore their actions are merely to eat , mate and protect .

When they forget their dharma then they take up the path of becoming, adharma, the path of ego. When this happens then there is imbalance within oneself; in one's relationship with God and with one another. When they remember their dharma , the harmony is reestablished. When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they took the path of adharma. All the prophets, all sages, all avatars,all scriptures invite people to renounce adharma and come back to their original dharma. They invite people to remember their dharma and shun adharma.

when a man fogets or is un aware of his Dharma he is no more than a human animal ,
''Ego'' is false identification with the self , a state in which man frequently commits 'Adharma' due to his lack of understanding and animlalistic self centered behavior .

When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they took the path of adharma.

jai jai , this is true , .. Adam and Eve were suffering 'Ahamkara' false identification , and were forgettfull of God .

All the prophets, all sages, all avatars,all scriptures invite people to renounce adharma and come back to their original dharma. They invite people to remember their dharma and shun adharma.

true , they re awaken god consciousness and iliminate' Ahamkara' , they remove the ignorance of not knowing and teach the knowledge and wisdom that brings mankind to the realisation of his position in relation to God , and his duty within that position .

 

[John Martin]

Dear Ratikala,
Thank you for your post. it is very illuminating. I am surprised that we have similar understanding.It is a tremendous joy to have dialogue with you.

please excuse my wishing to clarify a little , ....to hold in the sence of 'Support ' this is a very important difference
Dharman : to 'Support' .

yes, the sense of support is very important.

in Hinduism and Buddhism the analogy of a wheel is often used to signify Dharma , eternaly in motion without begining and without end .
Buddha set in motion the wheel of law (Dharma), the rim of the wheel is 'supported' evenly by the spokes which in buddhist icinography relate to the principles encompased in the eight fold path , ...

1. Right thought ,
2. right speach ,
3. Right action ,
4. Right livelihood ,
5. Right endeavor ,
6. Right mindfulness , and
7. Right meditation .

in the same way there are pillars of sanatana dharma , which 'support' ,which 'uphold' religion .



1. Austerity ; Tapas ,
2. Purity ; Saucham ,
3. Compassion ; Daya ,
4. Truthfulness ; Satyam .

we need to distinguish between Eternal Dharma, which is God, who supports the creation and dharma, moral principles. The eight fold path of Buddhism and the four pillars of Hinduism are means through which a person can be free from adharma and come back to dharma, the original nature of human beings, which is to be at the service of Eternal Dharma. Moral principles are only means and they are not end in themselves.


Quote:
Dharma is equivalent to God, because God holds the whole of creation as a hub holds the spokes. God is also called sanathana dharma, eternal principle that holds the creation,in the past,in the present and in the future.
Dharma is on one hand the divine law , there for it is Satyam , Truth , , the cosmic law , creation is it self a part of the eternal cycle that is the cosmic law ,

but the Dharma that holds is 'Duty ' the Dharma that supports , ..this is our Dharma .

The word ( Satyam) Sat means 'that which stands by itself. Its existence does not depend on anything else' So God is sat. God does not have duty- God acts according to its nature. Duty has a sense of an obligation, some how imposed from outside. The sun does not have a duty to holds its rays. It is its nature to radiate. Human beings as the manifestation of divine have their own nature, dharma. just it is the nature of sun to radiate it is also the nature of a ray to be connected to the sun and give light. A ray is Sat as much as it is coming from the sun and it is also asat as much as it dependent on the son. That is its dharma or nature. It is not an imposed duty.

Quote:
Creation has its own dharma. It is to be dependent on God and unfold its nature. Earth has its dharma, Sun has its dharma, moon has its dharma, plants have their dharma;animals have their and human beings have their dharma. The dharma of creatures is to unfold life. The dharma of human beings is to be 'fruitful and multiply'.
excuse me , but this is begining to sound a little to abrahamic in its understanding.
yes, it is little bit abrahamic in its understanding. The dharma of creation is inherent. It does not change.

Creation is the divine order it dosent have Dharma in the sence that we have Dharma as in duty , ...Creation is Dharma , as in unalterable 'Law'
Since creation does not have self consciousness like human beings it does not have dharma or duty as human beings have.
Quote:
The dharma of human beings is to be 'fruitful and multiply'. It means to unfold life( as opposite to become). It is to manifest divine attributes of love and compassion in human relationships.
the Dharma of the human being is to act in accordance with the divine order , to facilitate God consciousness and Liberation .living in a just manner is merely a requirement of this temporary state of being .
Yes, the dharma of human beings is to act according to the divine order. What is the divine order? It is to manifest from FULLNESS. It is to unfold life. Purnamadah purnamidam. God is FULLNESS;God acts from FULLNESS. we are also fullness. Acting according to the divine order is to live from our relative fullness. We need to distinguish from the means that facilitate divine consciousness and liberation and living after realizing divine consciousness. Living from the fullness comes only after realizing our divine consciousness and liberation, not before.

rather than manifesting love and compassion ones dharma dictates 'Rightiousness' love and compassion may be a part of that rightiousness but adove all Rightiousness is supreme .

I do not know what you mean by 'Rigteousness'? Jesus Christ said, first of all seek the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all things will be given unto you'. The kingdom of God discovering the Eternal Reality or God that supports the creation as the ground of our human consciousness and its righteousness means its dharma, its nature. What is the dharma of God for Christians: it is love. In that sense we can say that love and compassion are expressions of Divine Righteousness. The specificity of biblical tradition is that it gives specific purpose to human beings: it is to be 'fruitful and multiply'. it is to manifest divine attributes of love and compassion in human relationships. Human relationships are meant to experience God in one another. The purpose of life not just liberation or freedom from birth and death, samsara, but it is living in loving relationships. Our birth in this world is not an act of previous karma. This is something we need to dialogue with.


Quote:
What makes human beings different from the other creatures is that they have the possibility to forget their dharma and also to remember.
'Discrimination' , we posess the ability to discriminate there fore our dharma is to use this quality for god realisation , for liberation , an animal does not posses human discrimination , therefore their actions are merely to eat , mate and protect .
Yes, I agree with you.
Quote:
When they forget their dharma then they take up the path of becoming, adharma, the path of ego. When this happens then there is imbalance within oneself; in one's relationship with God and with one another. When they remember their dharma , the harmony is reestablished. When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they took the path of adharma. All the prophets, all sages, all avatars,all scriptures invite people to renounce adharma and come back to their original dharma. They invite people to remember their dharma and shun adharma.
when a man fogets or is un aware of his Dharma he is no more than a human animal ,
''Ego'' is false identification with the self , a state in which man frequently commits 'Adharma' due to his lack of understanding and animlalistic self centered behavior .

yes, we are one in mind and heart
Quote:
When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they took the path of adharma.
jai jai , this is true , .. Adam and Eve were suffering 'Ahamkara' false identification , and were forgettfull of God .

Thank you so much.
Quote:
All the prophets, all sages, all avatars,all scriptures invite people to renounce adharma and come back to their original dharma. They invite people to remember their dharma and shun adharma.
true , they re awaken god consciousness and iliminate' Ahamkara' , they remove the ignorance of not knowing and teach the knowledge and wisdom that brings mankind to the realization.

Thank you again. We are one in our understanding.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram :namaste

I do not know what you mean by 'Rigteousness'?

'righteousness' , in the sence that lord rama was called a rightious king , a rightious ruler he acted in accordance with his dharma as a king , as a ruler , his actions were selfless .

'rightiousness being the personificationn of dharma as inembodiment of truth and duty .

Jesus Christ said, ''first of all seek the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all things will be given unto you'' ..... The kingdom of God discovering the Eternal Reality or God that supports the creation as the ground of our human consciousness and its righteousness means its dharma, its nature.

yes all true knowledge ,dharma as in truth , ... knowledge of the eternal reality , parameshwara the supreme being and the truth that is parameshwara .

What is the dharma of God for Christians: it is love. In that sense we can say that love and compassion are expressions of Divine Righteousness.

sorry to repeat myself , but god dosent have a dharma , he is dharma , he is the embodiment of dharma (as in truth)

The specificity of biblical tradition is that it gives specific purpose to human beings: it is to be 'fruitful and multiply'. it is to manifest divine attributes of love and compassion in human relationships. Human relationships are meant to experience God in one another. The purpose of life not just liberation or freedom from birth and death, samsara, but it is living in loving relationships. Our birth in this world is not an act of previous karma. This is something we need to dialogue with.

yes human relationships are part of the process , but to be truely kind I think we should stop multiplying as the world is now over full , we can still be kind and loving without multiplying , we have to be a little sencible here , there are not enough recources in the world to continue to support a constant multiplication . if we continue to go forth and multiply as in create more beings , this will simply result in poverty and war .

however we should go forth and multiply in wisdom , in love and understanding ,
love has more meaning than procreation , to me love is sharing and giving , one does not need to give only to ones offspring , giving should be universal .

the true realisation of the ultimate reality is the use of discriminating wisdom , this is where I part company with abrahamic religions as there is a tendancy to take the teachings litteraly rather than developing the insight to inturpret the hidden meaning .
I am not saying that all christians lack deeper understanding , but there does need to be some meditation on the deeper meaning of some texts .

 

[John Martin]

namaskaram :namaste

Dear ratikla,
thank you for your response. Thank you for clarifying righteousness. Ramarajya is the rule of dharma. Rama and Dharma are identical. For us Christians Ramarajya means the rule of God, the kingdom of God, in which we embody the will of God.
sorry to repeat myself , but god dosent have a dharma , he is dharma , he is the embodiment of dharma (as in truth)

yes, God does not have a dharma, God is dharma.


yes human relationships are part of the process , but to be truely kind I think we should stop multiplying as the world is now over full , we can still be kind and loving without multiplying , we have to be a little sencible here , there are not enough recources in the world to continue to support a constant multiplication . if we continue to go forth and multiply as in create more beings , this will simply result in poverty and war .

I did not mean physical multiplication. Multiplication has many levels. Physical is one level. We need to multiply what is necessary, beneficial to human beings. If multiplying children is not beneficial then we should not multiply. Jesus Christ did not multiply children but he multiplied fish and bread, he changed water into wine, he healed people from their physical and mental sickness. He multiplied, love, compassion and forgiveness.

however we should go forth and multiply in wisdom , in love and understanding ,
love has more meaning than procreation , to me love is sharing and giving , one does not need to give only to ones offspring , giving should be universal .

yes, I fully agree.


the true realisation of the ultimate reality is the use of discriminating wisdom , this is where I part company with abrahamic religions as there is a tendancy to take the teachings litteraly rather than developing the insight to inturpret the hidden meaning .
Yes, there is a tendency in abrahamic religions to take teachings literally and become little fanatic. There is less tendency to question, to try to understand critically, to develop insight and go into the deeper meaning of things. But there are also persons in the abrahamic tradition who go into the deeper meaning of things: per example the Christian mystics, the sufis, Kabbla the mystical tradition of Judaism. One need little bit an effort to discover them. The persons one generally encounters are those who interpret literally and become very dogmatic. So one gets the impression that all those who belong to abrahamic religions are like that. There are exceptions.

I am not saying that all christians lack deeper understanding , but there does need to be some meditation on the deeper meaning of some texts .

Yes,I agree with you.

Thank you for this dialogue and it is always wonderful to listen to you and to share with you.

 

[Ozzie]

It's Your life-plan, the individual role you were born with. It includes all aspects of behavior, habits, and lifestyle. It's the blueprint that will create optimum spiritual growth in a particular life.
Like characters in a play, everyone's dharma is different. What's proper/productive for one person may be entirely wrong/unproductive for his neighbor.

I almost agree with you. Just as well most characters in a play follow a set of rules and are not psychotic.