Zen and humaneness

[Bruce Planck]

Hello everyone, I am engineering student from Germany and this is my first post. I directly enter your forum with my question.

I am dealing with Buddhism for quite a while now. Made it through more or less difficult books with more or less understanding of it's (Buddhism's) essence. The beginning was actually hard but over the time due to a lot of repetition and reflection in daily life I gained a certain feeling for the background and the message of this (to my understanding in the first place) philosophy. Several insightful moments encouraged me to follow this path further, because I feel a certain inner resonance with the argumentation and the conclusions of the buddhist world view. Especially when it comes to dukkha, karma, and compassion. For me, Buddhism is a deeply humane point of view with great benefits for oneself and for others, even without the believe in samsara, nirvana and reincarnation. This aspect of Buddhism makes it a Religion for me, apart from a philosophy. Since I think the idea of an endless cycle of birth and death sounds natural but I cannot really say that I believe in it, I was looking for a way to avoid that 'problem' and go a more direct way to see 'the truth'.
This brought me to Zen. I read quite some literature on Zen and I have to admit that besides a certain fascination, I have the feeling, all the Zen masters are completely crazy and don't seem like Buddhists at all. In every text, I read, the destruction of objective, conceptual thinking and the relevance of subjective, intuitive thinking where emphasized. From what I understand, this shall lead the insight, that Dualism is an illusion and that everything is essentially one. It shall lead to the destruction of the illusion of one's Ego, the destruction of desire and therefore to liberation and enlightenment. This brings two problems for me:

First problem is, that the beautiful rational argumentative explanation of Buddhist principles is questioned. Is my understanding of this principles wrong or incomplete, when Zen asks me to let to go of my expectation, that my ratio could understand everything in this world? Could it be, that rather than 'understanding' this necessity of the conclusions, when following the path of Zen I could 'feel' them, see and accept them as 'truth'?

This leads to my second problem: Where did all the humaneness, all the compassion, all the love of Buddhism go, when I start dealing with Zen? To me Zen seems to be neither rational, nor emotional. Neither inhumane, nor humane. To me, Zen is cold. Whenever some told me about Zen, he never mentioned hate, compassion, joy, or pain. Either all the authors thought of that as a prerequisit, they thought, I would already be a Buddhist and would know how to link Zen to that. Or (and that is it how it seems to me) they seperate Zen from Buddhism. From the cultivation of attitudes like love and compassion. I really hope, that this is not the case, but maybe some of you can share their view on Zen and the role of Buddhist principles in it's practice.

Maybe I am completely missing the point of Zen here. If you think so, please tell me!

Thanks for your opinions!

 

[Secret Chief]

Hello!

Why did the Buddha sit under the Bodhi tree?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Zen is kind of unique in the world of religion, not only in Buddhism specifically, but religion in general. At first glance, it seems like everything taught in other forms of Buddhism, are conspicuously absent from the teachings of the Zen masters. It seems that they don't emphasize the Four Noble Truths, compassion and loving kindness, or anything else that is Buddhism.

However, once one starts to enter more deeply on the Way, one realizes that these things are there, they're just not spoken of in any direct way. This is the way of Zen simplicity. Everything that is Buddhism, is condensed into three things, generally: the practice of meditation, the experience of shunyata, and the path of the bodhisattva. One thing that must be understood, though, is that Zen cannot be completely understood based on intellectual reasoning alone; it is not a speculative religion, and conceptions are normally understood to be wrong. In order to fully and completely understand Zen, it must be practiced. This is due primarily to Zen's understanding of non-duality, which is nothing more than shunyata itself, the expression of the Buddha-nature within.

Zen rejects metaphysical speculation, intellectual reasoning, and scriptural formulas, in favor of direct insight. The reasoning is simple: one can read and read and read all day long, but until one actually experiences what one is reading, than there's no way that it can become part of us, something that we make our own. For example, you can read books about astronomy, and see pictures of stars and planets, but unless you get in a shuttle and head into space yourself, to experience the universe in it's full majesty, you cannot know how to really appreciate what it is you're reading and seeing in books and pictures.

 

[crossfire]

Hello everyone, I am engineering student from Germany and this is my first post. I directly enter your forum with my question.

I am dealing with Buddhism for quite a while now. Made it through more or less difficult books with more or less understanding of it's (Buddhism's) essence. The beginning was actually hard but over the time due to a lot of repetition and reflection in daily life I gained a certain feeling for the background and the message of this (to my understanding in the first place) philosophy. Several insightful moments encouraged me to follow this path further, because I feel a certain inner resonance with the argumentation and the conclusions of the buddhist world view. Especially when it comes to dukkha, karma, and compassion. For me, Buddhism is a deeply humane point of view with great benefits for oneself and for others, even without the believe in samsara, nirvana and reincarnation. This aspect of Buddhism makes it a Religion for me, apart from a philosophy. Since I think the idea of an endless cycle of birth and death sounds natural but I cannot really say that I believe in it, I was looking for a way to avoid that 'problem' and go a more direct way to see 'the truth'.

Have you read the Kalama Sutta? This portion is relevant to your point:

"Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires four assurances in the here-&-now:
"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.
"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.
"'If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me?' This is the third assurance he acquires.
"'But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both respects.' This is the fourth assurance he acquires.​

The "problem" you are worried about is actually not a problem at all. Can you see the "truth" in that?

 

[Bruce Planck]

Thanks for the fast replies!

Why did the Buddha sit under the Bodhi tree?

I don't know. Does it matter, why he was not in his kitchen washing the dishes? Is that supposed to be a Koan? Im sorry, but I don't see the relation of your reply to my question.

___

Zen is kind of unique in the world of religion, not only in Buddhism specifically, but religion in general. At first glance, it seems like everything taught in other forms of Buddhism, are conspicuously absent from the teachings of the Zen masters. It seems that they don't emphasize the Four Noble Truths, compassion and loving kindness, or anything else that is Buddhism.

Everything that is Buddhism, is condensed into three things, generally: the practice of meditation, the experience of shunyata, and the path of the bodhisattva. One thing that must be understood, though, is that Zen cannot be completely understood based on intellectual reasoning alone; it is not a speculative religion, and conceptions are normally understood to be wrong. In order to fully and completely understand Zen, it must be practiced. This is due primarily to Zen's understanding of non-duality, which is nothing more than shunyata itself, the expression of the Buddha-nature within.

You mean, it's like a different approach on the same 'thing'? I think I got your point. It's really about the subjective view and the convictions that grow from the inner experience. Seems like I should give it a serious try.

But still Zen feels so cold, what is the motivation to commit oneself to Zen, when you cannot understand it without being commited?
What is your own experience with that? Do you feel, Zen gives you hold in daily life? How does it affect your social life?

 

[Bruce Planck]

Have you read the Kalama Sutta? This portion is relevant to your point:

"Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires four assurances in the here-&-now:
"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.
"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.
"'If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me?' This is the third assurance he acquires.
"'But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both respects.' This is the fourth assurance he acquires.​

The "problem" you are worried about is actually not a problem at all. Can you see the "truth" in that?

Actually, the problem of rebirth is none of the two problems I wanted to discuss here, but I appreciate your hint. I know this thoughts and they make sense to me. But it sounds a little bit like 'I believe what is expedient'. For me this is slightly different from the strong conviction, that Buddhist text suggest. It feels more like pretending rather than believing.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

You mean, it's like a different approach on the same 'thing'? I think I got your point. It's really about the subjective view and the convictions that grow from the inner experience. Seems like I should give it a serious try.

Yeah, pretty much.

But still Zen feels so cold, what is the motivation to commit oneself to Zen, when you cannot understand it without being commited?

People rarely decide to follow Zen out of intellectual or emotional reasons; it is normally other peoples' stories of their experiences that lead them to it. However, I must point out that some reading is still necessary to get one to understand the basics of Zen, and give them a basic understanding and a reason to try it out. But you have to be careful what you're reading; look to beginner's guides that attempt to lead one through the though processes at a fundamental level, otherwise, you get stuck trying to understand advanced concepts without a proper foundation.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I forgot to answer your other questions.

What is your own experience with that? Do you feel, Zen gives you hold in daily life? How does it affect your social life?

I'll try to give you a few things in which Zen has helped me in life. One of the most basic ways that Zen helps, is that it gives you an unobstructed look at the nature of reality. This is one of it's main thrusts. This has helped me in dealing with people and circumstances common to daily life. It helps at work, with family and friends, and with acquaintances and strangers. I don't get so stressed out when things don't go my way, or when things seem to be going badly. I have a better understanding of the interconnectedness of all things, which leads to more compassionate actions.

 

[Bruce Planck]

Okay, thanks for your advice! According to texts on Zen it's crucial to have a teacher, so I will look out for a Zen Dojo when I want to seriously start working with it.

Anyway, my questions have been answered, so I'm satisfied for now

 

[crossfire]

Hello!

Why did the Buddha sit under the Bodhi tree?

Thanks for the fast replies!



I don't know. Does it matter, why he was not in his kitchen washing the dishes? Is that supposed to be a Koan? Im sorry, but I don't see the relation of your reply to my question.

Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree to practice Anapana Sati through the four jhanas to become enlightened. His original search began as to find a way to the ending of dukkha. He found that practicing austerities wasn't making him enlightened, so he tried meditation--and it worked!

 

[Bruce Planck]

He found that practicing austerities wasn't making him enlightened, so he tried meditation--and it worked!

So basically you say the same like dyanaprajna2011, I should stop thinking too much and start doing? the rest will come by itself

 

[joea]

If you want to know what Buddhism is, I suggest you meditate. The Buddha once said to his disciples, .." don't believe in what i have said"..if you want to know the truth, close your eyes and look in to find your silence....meditate To me scriptures are not important, because one can easily look at the fingers pointing at the moon, and not the moon or mistaken the reflection of the moon in the water and missing the real : so dear friend, meditate

 

[Secret Chief]

Hello again!

No it was not a koan. He sat down to meditate and became awakened. Did you not know that?

It was not done to be rational or emotional, your two points. Zen focusses on that which awakened the Buddha.

 

[Twilight Hue]

In Zen, all you need to do is sit in a prescribed manner and technique and wait for the mind to react to the fact there is nothing expected or givin by doing so.

Where do all the thoughts come and go that formulated the questions in the op in the first place? It starts with thinking....hence the content of the op.........Perfect understanding while experienced, remains obscure through strong and persistent ego of which fights you brutally along the path until givin moments arise where things calm enough and realisation sets allowing for perfect understanding through clarity.

Zen.

Easy to do. Hard to do. Neither actually works. Just sit then.

 

[Straw Dog]

Zen uncovers and cultivates the essential nature of the luminous mind, in which compassion and gratitude are manifestations of. It is primarily about practice, but there is some associated philosophy as well. Some teach the suppression of thought, but this is unnatural.

If you'd like something to think about, I'd recommend the Heart Sutra or the Tao Te Ching. For more comprehensive philosophy, try the Chuangzi. Zen-related philosophy is a hybrid of Buddhist and Daoist teachings. Again, practice is essential for genuine understanding however.

There are different forms of practice. The mainstream tends to teach full lotus zazen, which is a form of low-level torture and unneccesary IMO. There is also the lesser known yin-zen that I personally find to be more efficient and enjoyable. Regardless of form, Zen practice is all about full immersion in the eternal NOW such that there is no yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

 

[joea]

Zen is all to do with flowing with the river. ...without Doing" ...choicelessness! ..neither for or against. You simply go with the flow of life as it is.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Zen uncovers and cultivates the essential nature of the luminous mind, in which compassion and gratitude are manifestations of. It is primarily about practice, but there is some associated philosophy as well. Some teach the suppression of thought, but this is unnatural.

If you'd like something to think about, I'd recommend the Heart Sutra or the Tao Te Ching. For more comprehensive philosophy, try the Chuangzi. Zen-related philosophy is a hybrid of Buddhist and Daoist teachings. Again, practice is essential for genuine understanding however.

There are different forms of practice. The mainstream tends to teach full lotus zazen, which is a form of low-level torture and unneccesary IMO. There is also the lesser known yin-zen that I personally find to be more efficient and enjoyable. Regardless of form, Zen practice is all about full immersion in the eternal NOW such that there is no yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

What's yin zen?

 

[Straw Dog]

What's yin zen?

It's recollecting the antecedent of each in-breath and each out-breath. That is, you follow the imperceptible intention before each inhale and exhale while naturally breathing. Be the breath-maker rather than the breath-watcher. It could also be described as watching/recollecting the potential activating through the body and mind. Any arising thoughts should be directed about that which is imperceptible before each breath. You'll know it's working whenever you start feeling energy build up within.

I don't really know why it works so well for me. I wouldn't say that it's necessarily superior because zen is zen, but I definitely can't go back to ghost-sitting or chasing breath.

 

[Straw Dog]

You simply go with the flow of life as it is.

Or you could become/direct the flow of life.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

It's recollecting the antecedent of each in-breath and each out-breath. That is, you follow the imperceptible intention before each inhale and exhale while naturally breathing. Be the breath-maker rather than the breath-watcher. It could also be described as watching/recollecting the potential activating through the body and mind. Any arising thoughts should be directed about that which is imperceptible before each breath. You'll know it's working whenever you start feeling energy build up within.

I don't really know why it works so well for me. I wouldn't say that it's necessarily superior because zen is zen, but I definitely can't go back to ghost-sitting or chasing breath.

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm still a little lost. How does this differ from zazen or anapanasati? And is it similar to pranayama?