The Debate of God.

[Ouroboros]

Thief is correct, however. As per you, conscious mind is actually just unthinking neurological processes.

But you still seem to possess the ability to know and assert "We aren't what we think we are".

Yup.

The ability to interpret and experience is an extension of this world. Unthinking neurological processes become thinking abstract consciousnesses. The emergence is part of reality.

The problem with reductive thinking is that it reduces the play of Macbeth to paper weight, ink amount and composition, numbers of letters and sentence structures, but it completely misses the meaning of the play or the impression of actually watching it performed.

Perhaps reductionists should start using the phrase "have a dopamine day!" since happiness is only a dopamine (and some other chemicals) reactions.

 

[Thief]

Thief is correct, however. As per you, conscious mind is actually just unthinking neurological processes.

But you still seem to possess the ability to know and assert "We aren't what we think we are".



As per your understanding,

Perhaps I can clarify.
As we go about dealing with ourselves and others...we compromise.

Most of that compromise is dealt to have in return what we surrender.
I try to be nice to you...hoping the same in return.

But what we really are would those things within that we keep hidden.

And so the Carpenter gave warning to the Pharisees....
You wash the outside of the cup...but never the inside.

 

[godnotgod]

My statement wasn't all too serious, just so you know.

Anyway, it's obvious that consciousness is very dependent on space, time , matter, energy, processes, etc. But at the same time, it has a continuation of existence even though we constantly change matter in ourselves.

Can pure consciousness exist without space, time, matter, energy, processes, etc.? I am suggesting, contrary to what you propose, that these things are dependent upon consciousness.

 

[godnotgod]

Does it?

If you observe the mind you'll notice that it isn't a continuous, interrupted flow. Rather, it's more like a series of separate yet interrelated snapshots, built around a basic feedback loop. One thought/experience filters back to the brain which induces another.
In addition, modern analysis suggests that the conscious mind is actually just a phenotypic expression of a host of underlying, unthinking neurological processes. Much like the graphics of a computer program or game are a basic representation of the far more complex underlying code. The conscious mind simply acts as an interface, allowing the brain to better interact with and process data harvested by the sense organs. You believe you are having spontaneous thoughts and emotions, when actually they are the end product of biochemical interactions, their nature determined by the brain long (relatively speaking) before they are given mental or verbal expression.
We aren't what we think we are.

Ouroboros was referring to consciousness; you are referring to mind.

Consciousness is non-local. It is always present.

Mind is localized, and is self-created. It is illusory.

 

[godnotgod]

So now your leaning to the notion that substance....just happens.

Yes, as a manifestation of the Absolute, out of a sense of divine play.

"The universe is the Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation."

...but the universe is illusory, just as the rope is not a 'snake'.

Remove the filters of Time, Space, and Causation, and you see the universe as it actually is, The Absolute.

 

[Thief]

Yes, as a manifestation of the Absolute, out of a sense of divine play.

"The universe is the Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation."

...but the universe is illusory, just as the rope is not a 'snake'.

Remove the filters of Time, Space, and Causation, and you see the universe as it actually is, The Absolute.

And if you ever get around to removing the pointless poetry you might see the reality...
that you claim to be an illusion.

"...man speak with forked tongue!..."

 

[Ouroboros]

Can pure consciousness exist without space, time, matter, energy, processes, etc.?

I don't know. I don't think it can.

I am suggesting, contrary to what you propose, that these things are dependent upon consciousness.

Maybe, maybe not. I think there's an interdependency that can't be broken.

 

[Thief]

I don't know. I don't think it can.


Maybe, maybe not. I think there's an interdependency that can't be broken.

I have been blind seven days...I didn't stop 'seeing'.
I've had my limbs turn cold and unresponsive....I didn't stop 'feeling'.
I've known pain to the point of numbness...I survived.

Your senses deal this life to your mind.

Your spirit can deal without it.

We die....we go to what we desire.

 

[godnotgod]

Yup.

The ability to interpret and experience is an extension of this world. Unthinking neurological processes become thinking abstract consciousnesses. The emergence is part of reality.

...which is what we call 'mind'. But what about consciousness that does not think, but just sees?

 

[godnotgod]

Yup.

The ability to interpret and experience is an extension of this world. Unthinking neurological processes become thinking abstract consciousnesses. The emergence is part of reality.

...which is what we call 'mind'. But what about consciousness that does not think, but just sees, which is the consciousness that allows us

"the ability to know and assert "We aren't what we think we are"."

It is the consciousness realized via self-transcendence.

 

[Ouroboros]

...which is what we call 'mind'. But what about consciousness that does not think, but just sees?

What about it? It exists, in conjunction. Does consciousness exist without mind or without a medium to exist within? Do we ever observe and experience other people's lives? Or do we only observe and experience our own? Do anyone else but me have a consciousness? I can't know. I can only assume you have one too. Maybe I'm alone in having one, and everyone else is pretending to have one.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't know. I don't think it can.


Maybe, maybe not. I think there's an interdependency that can't be broken.

So what would the nature of that interdependency be?

 

[Ouroboros]

So what would the nature of that interdependency be?

What we're experiencing.

 

[godnotgod]

What we're experiencing.

Which is temporal. The relationship of consciousness to time, space, etc makes that type of consciousness relative, and therefore, interdendent.

I mean an absolute non-local consciousness that encompasses both; that is unborn and deathless.

Like an ocean wave is temporal, but it is made of the same substance, water, as the sea from which it emerges and to which it returns.

 

[godnotgod]

What about it? It exists, in conjunction. Does consciousness exist without mind or without a medium to exist within? Do we ever observe and experience other people's lives? Or do we only observe and experience our own? Do anyone else but me have a consciousness? I can't know. I can only assume you have one too. Maybe I'm alone in having one, and everyone else is pretending to have one.

That we entertain an idea of possession of a consciousness is an illusion.

Where is the 'possessor'?

When the mind is stilled, it is seen, via of pure consciousness, that such mind is an illusion.

That which continues seeing is what is real.

 

[Ouroboros]

Which is temporal. The relationship of consciousness to time, space, etc makes that type of consciousness relative, and therefore, interdendent.

That's how they connect. Consciousness is also a form of awareness, and you can't be aware without having something to be aware of.

I mean an absolute non-local consciousness that encompasses both; that is unborn and deathless.

I'm not sure I'm at that point yet to accept that.

Like an ocean wave is temporal, but it is made of the same substance, water, as the sea from which it emerges and to which it returns.

I see. Maybe. I'm not there yet.

 

[godnotgod]

That's how they connect. Consciousness is also a form of awareness, and you can't be aware without having something to be aware of.
.

Which means there is no Absolute, since Absolute means there is no 'other'. But the question here is: if there must be something to be aware of (objectively), then that 'something' is separate from the observer. Is that the case?

You had stated the interdepency principle, which implies non-separation.

Which is it?

 

[godnotgod]

I see. Maybe. I'm not there yet.

Well, if the illusory nature of the self is detected, then what remains, and what is it that is detecting the illusion?

Were the wave able to think, it might say: "Oh, look at me. I am a separate entity apart from the sea. I think, therefore I exist"

So it appears that thinking and the mind are the problems here.

 

[Ouroboros]

Which means there is no Absolute, since Absolute means there is no 'other'.

I'm not sure what you mean.

But the question here is: if there must be something to be aware of (objectively), then that 'something' is separate from the observer. Is that the case?

The observer observes itself.

Do I understand you right that consciousness is non-temporal?

You had stated the interdepency principle, which implies non-separation.

Which is it?

Not sure what you mean here either. Non-temporality can't give "birth" to temporality. If space-time is the effect of consciousness, and consciousness is real, the space-time is real in some sense and an integral part of consciousness and not separate. Consciousness can only be aware of its own existence in a temporal form.

 

[Ouroboros]

Well, if the illusory nature of the self is detected, then what remains, and what is it that is detecting the illusion?

If there's a "what" and an act of "detecting" then there's existence and temporality. None can't be without the other.

Were the wave able to think, it might say: "Oh, look at me. I am a separate entity apart from the sea. I think, therefore I exist"

No, wave is part of ocean, but ocean is never still. Both ocean and wave constantly exist and changes. The ocean never stops waving. The wave can't exist without the ocean, but the ocean have no borders unless it has a surface, and it won't realize it's own existence without motion. Different aspects of the same.

So it appears that thinking and the mind are the problems here.

Which are temporal and if consciousness is non-temporal, how can there be a temporality for consciousness to experience?