Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[sojourner]

I thought a literalist was either a person who believes every word in the bible is the perfect representation of what God revealed or a person who interprets scripture as literal and not allegory (that one makes no sence at all). Regardless I am neither. The diference between me and Sojourner is in degree not in any sence of totality.

True.

 

[waitasec]

Are you sure that we have not had this same discussion before? I think I remember a story about going to the store I posted that dealt with this simplistic issue. I do not know if there is anything to be gained if we have but if not rock on.

yes yes
a bible literalists MO.

 

[1robin]

yes yes
a bible literalists MO.

Can you remember the last time you actually completed a full sentence? I have no idea what you are saying. The sad part is neither does the author IMO.

 

[waitasec]

Can you remember the last time you actually completed a full sentence? I have no idea what you are saying. The sad part is neither does the author IMO.

and you have every right to that opinion...but
i didn't expect you to understand...perhaps one day you will...perhaps not.
oh well.

moving right along....

 

[1robin]

and you have every right to that opinion...but
i didn't expect you to understand...perhaps one day you will...perhaps not.
oh well.

moving right along....

I may be too stupid but I am honestly stupid. I wish I could figure out some of the half sentences, abbreviations, and emoticons you use in place of comprehensive claims so I could counter them. That is all I can stand for today. I look forward to more thought fragments tomorrow. I kid (mostly).

 

[Thief]

moving goal posts...are you feeling a little uncomfortable of the fact that there are opposing narratives? focus...this meandering only suggests you can't deal with the discrepancies that are there.

And neither do you.
You present them only as opposition to belief...which you can't deal with.

Choose to believe and cheery pick like everyone else.

You'll like yourself better and have more friends.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

then why do you ignore the discrepancies found in the gospels?

What discrepancies??

 

[waitasec]

What discrepancies??

lets start with this one....

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...2-i-think-discrepancy-rather-interesting.html

 

[Babs]

Personlly, I don't think that was the reason he was crucified. I'm not really sure what the real reason was. I just don't think that was it.

Still think it was messed up, either way!

And, yes, I agree, Jesus was a demi-god.

 

[Thief]

Personlly, I don't think that was the reason he was crucified. I'm not really sure what the real reason was. I just don't think that was it.

Still think it was messed up, either way!

And, yes, I agree, Jesus was a demi-god.

He died for cause of a false accusation.
Someone pointed a finger and said...'king of the Jews'

This would be insurrection under Roman law.

Pilate wrote in down and had it nailed to the cross.
Fair warning to any other who would be.... 'king'.

The pharisees objected. How would anyone become the Messiah if Rome would kill the possibilities (even though it was the Jews who insisted Jesus spoke of Himself in such manner).

Fact is....He never wanted a crown on His head.
He walked away every time it was mentioned.

 

[davidthegreek]

God is all powerful, why make a man just to die to save everyone when he could just do it by thinking it happening?

Yes, I know I will get a lot of comments saying "Jesus is no man! He is God!" Well, technically isn't he a demigod? Half man half God? And even if you don't consider him to be, it just made people suffer from sadness, especially Mary the mother of Jesus.

He is not half and half. He is a full and a perfect of both Natures.

 

[bnabernard]

He is not half and half. He is a full and a perfect of both Natures.

Would you say the same about Adam, God who is life uncreated shared life with creation, unless God created life, Jesus/Yeshua was flesh, flesh from the dust and is supported by the dust as plants convert the dust into eadible substance which we eat to provide our own flesh

bernard (hug)

 

[YouOnlyScienceOnce]

I dont know why a god would want to send his son to the earth to then horribly torture him and kill him in order to forgive himself? If you would see god as a person torturing his own son in the real world to forgive himself you would want him to go to prison. I dont get why god would be allowed to do that but a normal person would be considered a bad person.

 

[bnabernard]

I dont know why a god would want to send his son to the earth to then horribly torture him and kill him in order to forgive himself? If you would see god as a person torturing his own son in the real world to forgive himself you would want him to go to prison. I dont get why god would be allowed to do that but a normal person would be considered a bad person.

It makes a bit more sense if the son refered to is Adam himself the first unique creation that was given life from God.
Under the premis described by which Adam ate of the fruit he could plead 'mitigating circumstances'' ie, was it taken into account that he would be sneaked up on by an angel working through a snake and his spouse.
Of course the trial of all the angels comes into the scenario but one thing at a time, Adam is restored as Yeshua/Jesus, he faces off with the angel that decieved Eve (and himself) he sticks to his guns and rejects the advances of the decieving angel abiding by the originall command to be obedient, suffers on account of suffering comming into the world because of his own mistake.
Then comes the death of the sinful Adam, and Adam restored to obedience returns to a good standing with his Father and creator and as first of mankind awaiting the judgements on those who will remain as his offspring.

OK a bit potted (and some will say potty) but the gist is there.

bernard (hug)

 

[1robin]

I dont know why a god would want to send his son to the earth to then horribly torture him and kill him in order to forgive himself? If you would see god as a person torturing his own son in the real world to forgive himself you would want him to go to prison. I dont get why god would be allowed to do that but a normal person would be considered a bad person.

That implies that he did so, and there is no evidence even hinting at that. He values love. Love cannot be given without freewill. Freewill does not exist without the ability to deny it's maker. He created Adam and made available every single action possible with the exception of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That tree may be symbolic but it was the only thing he could not do. He created Adam perfect and in a perfect world but allowed him the ability to rebel. Unfortunately he did. That in no way implies anything in your premise and so your conclusion is invalid. Creating a creature that has no choice but to love it's maker would be diabolical and pointless.

 

[FearGod]

That implies that he did so, and there is no evidence even hinting at that. He values love. Love cannot be given without freewill. Freewill does not exist without the ability to deny it's maker. He created Adam and made available every single action possible with the exception of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That tree may be symbolic but it was the only thing he could not do. He created Adam perfect and in a perfect world but allowed him the ability to rebel. Unfortunately he did. That in no way implies anything in your premise and so your conclusion is invalid. Creating a creature that has no choice but to love it's maker would be diabolical and pointless.

So in few words we are here on earth to make sins because we are all sinners and simply we should trust and love Jesus for salvation.

So as we can't avoid making sins because we are all sinners,then our only test for our existance on earth is to trust Jesus,sounds logic :bonk:

 

[1robin]

So in few words we are here on earth to make sins because we are all sinners and simply we should trust and love Jesus for salvation.

So as we can't avoid making sins because we are all sinners, then our only test for our existence on earth is to trust Jesus, sounds logic

What? There is no test for our existance.

1. We all have a choice to sin or not sin.
2. We all choose to sin at times.
3. If God simply said don't worry about it then he would not be just.
4. We have nothing that can be offered to mitigate the misery we have caused through our sin.
5. God provided the only thing that has any power to remove guilt. A perfect sacrifice.

A Muslim believes in the first 2 of those so you are complaining about something you believe as well. It is just that you think God will just let sin slide or that you can pray enough or obey enough to make up for what you have done and we do not.

It is a much larger issue.
1. God is perfect and will not dwell eternally with rebellion and imperfection.
2. We are imperfect by choice and no hand waiving away sin or working it off will ever make our record perfect. That does not make any sense.
3. God provided what we never could. A perfect sacrifice.
4. Jesus chose to do the only thing that will remedy the mess caused by our choices.
5. It is called substitutionary atonement. His perfect record is credited to my account and my imperfect record is credited to his account and God's vengeance is carried out on the cross. That takes place exactly as it did in Abraham's case. God credited Abraham as righteous because he believed God. He credits Christians with righteousness because we believe what he did in the Gospels.
6. Now our legal record is perfect before God through this transaction and we can dwell with God forever.

You may not like this system, you may have been told that this is not correct by the writings of a very questionable man who existed 500 years after the events (and therefore is extremely unreliable), but it is certainly a more comprehensive solution than just either ignoring sin or working it off through the same repetitious ceremonial garbage that the Bible condemns in the NT. Not only is all that true, but unlike any other system it provides proof of its existence by virtue of the born again experience. No other religion on earth offers or demands that every single follower begin his involvement with God by actually experiencing God. All other religions are superficial intellectual agreements with theological philosophies that offer no absolute proof and the mistake will realized by most until it is too late for it to matter. I and every single sincere Christian (billions of them) all claim to have experienced God and thereby received confirmation of the message and assurance of their destination. Even Muhammad said he didn't know if he would make it to heaven. There is something fundamentally wrong with a system created by one man over a few decades, when even that man was uncertain. My system was testified to by 40 authors plus over the course of approx. 2000 years and billions of it's believers experienced proof and validation of that message contained in the most studied and most cherished book in human history. No other religion on earth can claim that.

 

[FearGod]

What? There is no test for our existance.

1. We all have a choice to sin or not sin.
2. We all choose to sin at times.
3. If God simply said don't worry about it then he would not be just.
4. We have nothing that can be offered to mitigate the misery we have caused through our sin.
5. God provided the only thing that has any power to remove guilt. A perfect sacrifice.

A Muslim believes in the first 2 of those so you are complaining about something you believe as well. It is just that you think God will just let sin slide or that you can pray enough or obey enough to make up for what you have done and we do not.

It is a much larger issue.
1. God is perfect and will not dwell eternally with rebellion and imperfection.
2. We are imperfect by choice and no hand waiving away sin or working it off will ever make our record perfect. That does not make any sense.
3. God provided what we never could. A perfect sacrifice.
4. Jesus chose to do the only thing that will remedy the mess caused by our choices.
5. It is called substitutionary atonement. His perfect record is credited to my account and my imperfect record is credited to his account and God's vengeance is carried out on the cross. That takes place exactly as it did in Abraham's case. God credited Abraham as righteous because he believed God. He credits Christians with righteousness because we believe what he did in the Gospels.
6. Now our legal record is perfect before God through this transaction and we can dwell with God forever.

You may not like this system, you may have been told that this is not correct by the writings of a very questionable man who existed 500 years after the events (and therefore is extremely unreliable), but it is certainly a more comprehensive solution than just either ignoring sin or working it off through the same repetitious ceremonial garbage that the Bible condemns in the NT. Not only is all that true, but unlike any other system it provides proof of its existence by virtue of the born again experience. No other religion on earth offers or demands that every single follower begin his involvement with God by actually experiencing God. All other religions are superficial intellectual agreements with theological philosophies that offer no absolute proof and the mistake will realized by most until it is too late for it to matter. I and every single sincere Christian (billions of them) all claim to have experienced God and thereby received confirmation of the message and assurance of their destination. Even Muhammad said he didn't know if he would make it to heaven. There is something fundamentally wrong with a system created by one man over a few decades, when even that man was uncertain. My system was testified to by 40 authors plus over the course of approx. 2000 years and billions of it's believers experienced proof and validation of that message contained in the most studied and most cherished book in human history. No other religion on earth can claim that.

You are saying we aren't here for the test.

So what we are here for.

God knows already that we are all sinners and we can't be any more better,then why we are still here on earh.

Just in few words, according to islam each soul is created and will be tested which sound logic for me,but if you got a better reason for our existance on earth,then I'm all eàrs.

 

[F0uad]

2000 years and billions of it's believers experienced proof and validation of that message contained in the most studied and most cherished book in human history. No other religion on earth can claim that

What a fallacy.

Ps: That book has changed, altered, copy/cut and revised so many times. Yet you cannot say the same of the Quran so please rephrase your argument in what would make sense.

 

[1robin]

What a fallacy.

Ps: That book has changed, altered, copy/cut and revised so many times. Yet you cannot say the same of the Quran so please rephrase your argument in what would make sense.

An incorrect disagreement a fallacy does not make. Unless it is the fallacy of claiming inconvenient things that are well established facts. You know I do not agree and its textual accuracy can even be proven. You can buy software that will compare any modern Bible version with the oldest manuscripts in existence and highlight every difference. It results in less than 5% differences and most of those are meaningless. Even the Dead Sea scrolls were recently made available online for this purpose and the principle book Isaiah from well over 2000 years ago is about 99% accurate. However none of this matters anyway because the statement you responded to was one about experiencing God and that has no textual relevance at all. What I said would still be true even if the Bible did not exist. It does however at least indicate that what the Bible contains (if that was what was used a roadmap, and it overwhelmingly is) then it verifies its integrity as well. If I include Christians throughout history as well the current numbers they are probably around 6 or 7 billion people who would testify that they used the Bible and put it into practice and all experienced God. No other religion on Earth even attempts to claim this. At the time someone declares they are a Muslim they are be no more aware of God's presence than they had ever previously been. IOW an indicator of a false religion is one that does not guaranty proof to every single member. The indication of truth is one that guaranties and even mandates it for every single believer up front. If I invented a religion the very last thing I would do is suggest that God will be experienced the moment you believe, that religion would quickly be proven false. If I invented a false faith I would never guarantee that or at least make it some exclusive privilege that someone else always has.