Well now, this is scary and disconcerting

[Jainarayan]

I've been participating a lot lately in Vajrayana conversations, and Buddhism in general, because of my interest in deity yoga and it seems I've been a dharmic syncretist all along, but primarily Hindu. The part that is scary and disconcerting is in bold underline.

Preliminary practices and approach to Vajrayāna is acknowledged to be the fastest method for attaining Buddhahood but for unqualified practitioners it can be dangerous.[22] To engage in it one must receive an appropriate initiation (also known as an "empowerment") from a lama who is fully qualified to give it. From the time one has resolved to accept such an initiation, the utmost sustained effort in guru devotion is essential.
Tibetan Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It seems what I'm taking away from Vajrayana, because I don't know much about it, though it's not incompatible with Vaishnavism imo, is:

Deity yoga
The most important aspect of the tantric path is to 'use the result as the Path'; which means that rather than placing full enlightenment as a goal far away in the future, one identifies with the indivisible three vajras that is, the enlightened body, speech and mind of a Buddha. The practitioner focusses on and identifies with the resultant buddha-form or 'meditation deity', the yidam (Tibetan) or (Sanskrit) 'ishtadevata'.

Symbolism
In order to achieve this self-identification with the yidam, much symbolism, ritual and visualization is used in Buddhist tantric techniques. Tantric techniques may initially appear to consist of ritualistic nonsense; however, it should only be practiced on the basis of a thorough understanding of Buddhist philosophy and strictly following the traditions.[2]

Secrecy
Secrecy is often a cornerstone of tantric Buddhism, simply to avoid harm to oneself and to others by practicing without proper guidance. Full explanation of tantric symbolism and the psychology of the practice is forbidden to the uninitiated, which can easily lead to misunderstanding and dismissal by those who have not been initiated:[2]

Tantra is limited to persons whose compassion is so great that they cannot bear to spend unnecessary time in attaining Buddhahood, as they want to be a supreme source of help and happiness for others quickly.[3]
​

I'm especially intrigued by and attracted to this quote under Secrecy:

...they want to be a supreme source of help and happiness for others quickly

I often find myself in great emotional distress at the plight of the homeless; the eldery (especially those who are alone, ill, frail); the sick, especially children (I hate seeing the words 'child' and 'cancer' in the same sentence'); animals who are sick, injured, abandoned. Hot damn, I get upset when I see roadkill! I want to (no, I'm not going to say "... teach the world to sing in perfect harmony..." ... hey, I have to lighten this up), I want to just take all of them and... I don't know, make it all go away. But back to the initial issue of the "scariness", I don't understand the danger in the Deity Yoga, Symbolism and Secrecy aspects. Am I overthinking this (who, me? ). Feel free to say "yes".

 

[Shuddhasattva]

/looks around furtively before posting/

but for unqualified practitioners it can be dangerous

Honestly? Mostly marketing. Tibetan Buddhism is "second but foremost" an institution dominated by the Tibetan Refugee Fund racket. It likes to position itself as 'edgy' with its target market, but a sort of dependent edginess that absolutely requires card-carrying membership and unthinking adherence to one's guru.

I mean, you've got to think of this in the same sense as the Japanese royalty causing the nobility, and everyone else, to publicly praise and call for the eternal reign and longevity of the royal family, swearing absolute loyalty in the process. It's a practice implemented from the top of the status quo to maintain everyone else's dogmatic adherence to it.

We see much of the same sort of thing occurring with Tibetan Buddhism, with the status quo working overtime to preserve its territory in the minds of its adherents and to be once more frank, its currency in doing so is fear.

That said, guru yoga *is* truly essential - including full devotion, but I've seen far too much abuse of unthinking power-structures, including those of Tibetan Buddhism, to countenance the prevailing (and fearmongering) view.

All the fear and secrecy has a rationale: to protect the unqualified from revelation that would damage them and cause harmful behavior which justifies itself, erroneously, from the revelations.

Sadly, the fear and secrecy has done exactly that; it has made the institutions charged with protection of these doctrines themselves harmful behavers who secure their worldly power with fear and secrecy.

In my view, we no longer have time for such nonsense, and it is time to see the treasurehouse opened - with crowbars if need be, excluding not even the vultures from the marrow.

I often find myself in great emotional distress at the plight of the homeless; the eldery (especially those who are alone, ill, frail); the sick, especially children (I hate seeing the words 'child' and 'cancer' in the same sentence'); animals who are sick, injured, abandoned. Hot damn, I get upset when I see roadkill! I want to (no, I'm not going to say "... teach the world to sing in perfect harmony..." ... hey, I have to lighten this up), I want to just take all of them and... I don't know, make it all go away. But back to the initial issue of the "scariness", I don't understand the danger in the Deity Yoga, Symbolism and Secrecy aspects.

In specific, the aspiration required for vajrayana is 'bodhichitta,' that is to say, the Will of universal enlightenment. This means that in order to practice vajrayana, one is essentially required to swear (and mean) the bodhisattva vows which, coming from a Hindu perspective, may be anathema as it discounts moksha completely. Rather than seeking individual liberation, you are doing exactly the reverse in binding yourself to the wheel.

This might be useful: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3058049-post1.html


One thing also - I'm not sure how much accommodation for non-heterosexual perspectives there really is in vajrayana. Jeffrey Hopkins wrote a "gay tantra" book, but it's ... extremely shallow and wish-fulfilling, in my opinion, although his usual scholarly output is somewhat better, some of it even top-notch.

this post isn't here and neither am i.

 

[LuisDantas]

Generally speaking, anything that chooses to emphasize speed does so at the cost of something else, often safety. There is no particular reason why Vajrayana would be an exception.

Vajrayana as I understand it must indeed be somewhat riskier than other forms of Buddhism, since it relies so much more on symbolism and concepts. That is one of the reasons for the corresponding insistence on a greater level of supervision.

 

[Jainarayan]

Honestly? Mostly marketing. Tibetan Buddhism is "second but foremost" an institution dominated by the Tibetan Refugee Fund racket. It likes to position itself as 'edgy' within the , but a sort of dependent edginess that absolutely requires card-carrying membership and unthinking adherence to one's guru.

I mean, you've got to think of this in the same sense as the Japanese royalty causing the nobility, and everyone else, to publicly praise and call for the eternal reign and longevity of the royal family, swearing absolute loyalty in the process. It's a practice implemented from the top of the status quo to maintain everyone else's dogmatic adherence to it. ...

We see much of the same sort of thing occurring with Tibetan Buddhism, with the status quo working overtime to preserve its territory in the minds of its adherents and to be once more frank, its currency in doing so is fear.

Sadly, the fear and secrecy has done exactly that; it has made the institutions charged with protection of these doctrines themselves harmful behavers who secure their worldly power with fear and secrecy.

As I read further, I kind of thought that line was alluding to a members-only club type of thing.

In specific, the aspiration required for vajrayana is 'bodhichitta,' that is to say, the Will of universal enlightenment. This means that in order to practice vajrayana, one is essentially required to swear (and mean) the bodhisattva vows which, coming from a Hindu perspective, may be anathema as it discounts moksha completely. Rather than seeking individual liberation, you are doing exactly the reverse in binding yourself to the wheel.

This might be useful: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3058049-post1.html

I understand. :yes: That post is indeed enlightening (no pun intended). I would be sacrificing my own chance at moksha to help others. It's pretty selfless; it might be a form of penance. I like to think (perhaps wishfully) that at some point God would step in and say "OK, you've done enough, your work is finished". Or maybe I still haven't grasped it. Meditate on this I will. :yoda:

One thing also - I'm not sure how much accommodation for non-heterosexual perspectives there really is in vajrayana. Jeffrey Hopkins wrote a "gay tantra" book, but it's ... extremely shallow and wish-fulfilling, in my opinion, although his usual scholarly output is somewhat better, some of it even top-notch.

I have to delve more into it and what I want out of vajrayana, or any other school and what I'm willing to put into it. I know the stance of the Dalai Lama (your favorite guy ) on sexuality. He does tend to vascillate, but he is not the be-all end-all of Tibetan Buddhism. Truly, if I were single I would take a vow of brahmacharya, sub-heading sexual abstinence. Though as things are now... nevermind, tmi.

this post isn't here and neither am i.

No worries, I never saw this post or answered, though I appreciate what you never said.

 

[Jainarayan]

Generally speaking, anything that chooses to emphasize speed does so at the cost of something else, often safety. There is no particular reason why Vajrayana would be an exception.

No free lunch.

Vajrayana as I understand it must indeed be somewhat riskier than other forms of Buddhism, since it relies so much more on symbolism and concepts. That is one of the reasons for the corresponding insistence on a greater level of supervision.

All this started with a suggestion of practicing deity yoga in response to something I said, which is perhaps as far as I should go.

 

[Jainarayan]

Maybe not incompatible with Vaishnavism after all...

Bodhisattva vow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alexander Berzin (1997) asserts that the bodhisattva vow transcends the present lifetime:
"The promise to keep bodhisattva vows applies not only to this life, but to each subsequent lifetime until enlightenment. Thus these vows continue on our mind-stream into future lives."[3]

Perhaps this is a jiva's dharma, doing this work lifetime to lifetime, accruing good karma and taking it into future lives. Moksha is not achieved until the jiva itself attains enlightenment, I believe. This goes back to my earlier supposition that at some point God would step in and say "OK, you've done enough, your work is finished". Or I'm making this up as I'm going along. Interesting to learn all this though, imo.

 

[ratikala]

dear prabhu ji's

no intention to simply contradict , but im going to put in a different veiw all to gether here ,
in the opening post appear quotes from dear wickipedia , which is jolly usefull for some things , like helping me with my spelling ! but not allways 100% reliable in its content ,
enough said !
but as far as the warnings against unsupervised practice being dangerous ? I am afraid I have to agree with that one !!! even supervised practice is dangerous in the hands of some , look at all the down falls , supposedly well versed practitioners completely loosing it ? why because they never truely had comand of it inthe first place ! without good guidance many will not become true practitioners but become truely delusional beings .

I will go further and say any master that hands out instruction to an ill prepaired aspirant is all so quite possibly delusional he is no bodhisattva , but a well meaning fool . this goes across the board it dosent only apply to vajrayana but all schools of buddhism .

I've met equal horrors in theravada schools , I know of one practitioner who is actualy leading a meditation group , who when asked a question on meditationby a young monk gave such a lame answer about a very simple matter that I realy fear for any one taking guidance fron this poor fellow .
sorry to be so cautious , but there is possible danger every where , follow buddhas instructions check everything back against basic teachings !
again and again and again !

 

[Jainarayan]

I appreciate the information I'm getting. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked.

dear prabhu ji's

but as far as the warnings against unsupervised practice being dangerous ? I am afraid I have to agree with that one !!! even supervised practice is dangerous in the hands of some , look at all the down falls , supposedly well versed practitioners completely loosing it ? why because they never truely had comand of it inthe first place ! without good guidance many will not become true practitioners but become truely delusional beings .

So what practice are they referring to? My knowledge is so limited, hence wanting to learn. Is it meditative techniques; using an incorrect mantra; not understanding just what tantra is; or something more? I certainly don't want to play with fire.

I will go further and say any master that hands out instruction to an ill prepaired aspirant is all so quite possibly delusional he is no bodhisattva , but a well meaning fool . this goes across the board it dosent only apply to vajrayana but all schools of buddhism .

I've heard of this in Hinduism too with someone who is not a satguru.

I've met equal horrors in theravada schools , I know of one practitioner who is actualy leading a meditation group , who when asked a question on meditationby a young monk gave such a lame answer about a very simple matter that I realy fear for any one taking guidance fron this poor fellow .

Yes, that's what I'm mean about asking what kind of information or so-called guidance?

sorry to be so cautious , but there is possible danger every where , follow buddhas instructions check everything back against basic teachings !
again and again and again !

Better safe than sorry; better to err on the side of caution. I printed a copy of this and am going to keep it:

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.

Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.

Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.

Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.

Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.

But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. – The Buddha

 

[ratikala]

dear jainarayan ,

So what practice are they referring to? My knowledge is so limited, hence wanting to learn. Is it meditative techniques; using an incorrect mantra; not understanding just what tantra is; or something more? I certainly don't want to play with fire.

as far as I am concerned it is more about understanding what one is actualy doing , what ones motivation is ?

to begin at the begining , with the bodhisattva ideal , one is taking a vow to atain buddhahood for the benifit of all beings traped in samsara , for the benifit of all suffering beings .
before one can do this one has to become fully conversant with suffering , one has to fully understand the human condition !
just as a doctor has to become fully conversant with disease before he sets about healing patients .
for instance a tibetan monk goes through extremely lengthly training before going on to tantric practices .
the western mind thinking itself to be inteligent foolishly thinks it can go streight to the top , cut out all the leg work so to speak .
same applies to hinduism and theravada , one has to do the foundation practices !!!

I've heard of this in Hinduism too with someone who is not a satguru.

exactly .

Yes, that's what I'm mean about asking what kind of information or so-called guidance?

to me there is no harm in reading up on subjects trying to understand in principle as you are doing , but to practice one needs to be prepaired to start at the begining and progress surely and steadily .

shuddhasattva has allready writen on some of the many horrors comitted in the name of tibetan buddhism , these horrors are not only committed by imiture western practitioners but also by ordained tibetans , which purely goes to show how important correct and constant training and suppervision is !if the mind is not a pure clean vessel one CANOT put pure teachings or instruction to practice in it without those pure teachings becoming sullied !

Better safe than sorry; better to err on the side of caution.

here speaks a wise man , :yes:

I printed a copy of this and am going to keep it:
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.

Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.

Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.

Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.

Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.

But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. – The Buddha

and here speaks the wisest of all , ........lord buddha ki jai :namaste

I have a sujestion for you and a good topic for discussion , 'Lojong '(mind training) which consists of 59 aphorisms , each worthy of deep study and aplication .

 

[ratikala]

continued ....
text from dear wicki , trungpas translation ,

Point One: The preliminaries, which are the basis for dharma practice
Slogan 1. First, train in the preliminaries; The four reminders.[8] or alternatively called the Four Thoughts [9]
1. Maintain an awareness of the preciousness of human life.
2. Be aware of the reality that life ends; death comes for everyone; Impermanence.
3. Recall that whatever you do, whether virtuous or not, has a result; Karma.
4. Contemplate that as long as you are too focused on self-importance and too caught up in thinking about how you are good or bad, you will experience suffering. Obsessing about getting what you want and avoiding what you don't want does not result in happiness; Ego.
Point Two: The main practice, which is training in bodhicitta.

Absolute BodhicittaSlogan 2. Regard all dharmas as dreams; although experiences may seem solid, they are passing memories.
Slogan 3. Examine the nature of unborn awareness.Slogan 4. Self-liberate even the antidote.
Slogan 5. Rest in the nature of alaya, the essence, the present moment.
Slogan 6. In postmeditation, be a child of illusion.
Relative BodhicittaSlogan 7. Sending and taking should be practiced alternately. These two should ride the breath (aka. Practice Tonglen).
Slogan 8. Three objects, three poisons, three roots of virtue -- The 3 objects are friends, enemies and neutrals. The 3 poisons are craving, aversion and indifference. The 3 roots of virtue are the remedies.
Slogan 9. In all activities, train with slogans.
Slogan 10. Begin the sequence of sending and taking with yourself. Point Three: Transformation of Bad Circumstances into the Way of Enlightenment
Slogan 11. When the world is filled with evil, transform all mishaps into the path of bodhi.
Slogan 12. Drive all blames into one.
Slogan 13. Be grateful to everyone.
Slogan 14. Seeing confusion as the four kayas is unsurpassable shunyata protection. The kayas are Dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya, svabhavikakaya. Thoughts have no birthplace, thoughts are unceasing, thoughts are not solid, and these three characteristics are interconnected. Shunyata can be described as "complete openness."
Slogan 15. Four practices are the best of methods. The four practices are: accumulating merit, laying down evil deeds, offering to the dons, and offering to the dharmapalas.
Slogan 16. Whatever you meet unexpectedly, join with meditation. Point Four: Showing the Utilization of Practice in One's Whole Life
Slogan 17. Practice the five strengths, the condensed heart instructions. The 5 strengths are: strong determination, familiarization, the positive seed, reproach, and aspiration.
Slogan 18. The mahayana instruction for ejection of consciousness at death is the five strengths: how you conduct yourself is important. When you are dying practice the 5 strengths. Point Five: Evaluation of Mind Training
Slogan 19. All dharma agrees at one point -- All Buddhist teachings are about lessening the ego, lessening one's self-absorption.
Slogan 20. Of the two witnesses, hold the principal one -- You know yourself better than anyone else knows you
Slogan 21. Always maintain only a joyful mind.
Slogan 22. If you can practice even when distracted, you are well trained. Point Six: Disciplines of Mind Training
Slogan 23. Always abide by the three basic principles -- Dedication to your practice, refraining from outrageous conduct, developing patience.
Slogan 24. Change your attitude, but remain natural.-- Reduce ego clinging, but be yourself.
Slogan 25. Don't talk about injured limbs -- Don't take pleasure contemplating others defects.
Slogan 26. Don't ponder others -- Don't take pleasure contemplating others weaknesses.
Slogan 27. Work with the greatest defilements first -- Work with your greatest obstacles first.
Slogan 28. Abandon any hope of fruition -- Don't get caught up in how you will be in the future, stay in the present moment.
Slogan 29. Abandon poisonous food.
Slogan 30. Don't be so predictable -- Don't hold grudges.
Slogan 31. Don't malign others.
Slogan 32. Don't wait in ambush -- Don't wait for others weaknesses to show to attack them.
Slogan 33. Don't bring things to a painful point -- Don't humiliate others.
Slogan 34. Don't transfer the ox's load to the cow -- Take responsibility for yourself.
Slogan 35 . Don't try to be the fastest -- Don't compete with others.
Slogan 36. Don't act with a twist -- Do good deeds without scheming about benefiting yourself.
Slogan 37. Don't turn gods into demons -- Don't use these slogans or your spirituality to increase your self-absorption
Slogan 38. Don't seek others' pain as the limbs of your own happiness. Point Seven: Guidelines of Mind Training
Slogan 39. All activities should be done with one intention.
Slogan 40. Correct all wrongs with one intention.
Slogan 41. Two activities: one at the beginning, one at the end.
Slogan 42. Whichever of the two occurs, be patient.
Slogan 43. Observe these two, even at the risk of your life.
Slogan 44. Train in the three difficulties.
Slogan 45. Take on the three principal causes: the teacher, the dharma, the sangha.
Slogan 46. Pay heed that the three never wane: gratitude towards one's teacher, appreciation of the dharma (teachings) and correct conduct.
Slogan 47. Keep the three inseparable: body, speech, and mind.
Slogan 48. Train without bias in all areas. It is crucial always to do this pervasively and wholeheartedly.
Slogan 49. Always meditate on whatever provokes resentment.
Slogan 50. Don't be swayed by external circumstances.
Slogan 51. This time, practice the main points: others before self, dharma, and awakening compassion.
Slogan 52. Don't misinterpret. The six things that may be misinterpreted are patience, yearning, excitement, compassion, priorities and joy. You're patient when you're getting your way, but not when its difficult. You yearn for worldly things, instead of an open heart and mind. You get excited about wealth and entertainment, instead of your potential for enlightenment. You have compassion for those you like, but none for those you don't. Worldly gain is your priority rather than cultivating loving-kindness and compassion. You feel joy when you enemies suffer, and do not rejoice in others' good fortune.
Slogan 53. Don't vacillate (in your practice of LoJong).
Slogan 54. Train wholeheartedly.
Slogan 55. Liberate yourself by examining and analyzing: Know your own mind with honesty and fearlessness.
Slogan 56. Don't wallow in self-pity.
Slogan 57. Don't be jealous.
Slogan 58. Don't be frivolous.
Slogan 59. Don't expect applause.

read many translations and comentarys then apply buddhas rule ,


but on the sad subject above trungpa although a briliant mind still fell down !

 

[Jainarayan]

:namaste ratikala

dear jainarayan ,



as far as I am concerned it is more about understanding what one is actualy doing , what ones motivation is ?

I see... well, I have my motivation. So that's Step One.

to begin at the begining , with the bodhisattva ideal , one is taking a vow to atain buddhahood for the benifit of all beings traped in samsara , for the benifit of all suffering beings .

Even in life I would sacrifice myself, my life, to protect someone else. I'm not a police officer but my motto is the same as theirs: "To protect and serve". I may have been a police officer in another life, which is why I regret not having done it this time. I think this is why I have this desire to "protect and serve". Now it goes beyond this mortal life.

before one can do this one has to become fully conversant with suffering , one has to fully understand the human condition !
just as a doctor has to become fully conversant with disease before he sets about healing patients .
for instance a tibetan monk goes through extremely lengthly training before going on to tantric practices .
the western mind thinking itself to be inteligent foolishly thinks it can go streight to the top , cut out all the leg work so to speak .
same applies to hinduism and theravada , one has to do the foundation practices !!!

Oh, I understand suffering. I have endured it, not physically, but mentally and emotionally. I'm not only sympathetic but empathetic. That someone suffers in any way hurts me to my core. If I could take on that person's burden, I would. I've told these stories before:

1. I saw a man walking in the mall, away from me, back turned towards me. He was walking with the canes clasped around his wrists. Clearly he had either Muscular Dystrophy or Cerebral Palsy. He was carrying some bags and needless to say, was struggling. Bad enough as it was to see that, when he turned around a knife especially went through my heart... he was only in his early 20s. He would never play baseball, football or soccer, or run, or do many of the things a 20 year old young man should do.

2. I saw a young man, maybe late teens, at the beach. Actually he was sitting up on the boardwalk with his family just below him on the beach. He was strapped into one of those special wheelchairs because he was severely disabled. He'd never walk, or do any of those other things I mentioned young guys should do. Yet, he had the biggest smile on his face and was laughing because of the simple pleasure of being at the beach on a beautiful sunny day.

In both cases I could not bear to see their condition because of what they would never be able to do. Here's the rub... as much as I complain, I would have gladly taken on their disabilities for however long it took for them to enjoy the things I take for granted. I have enough strength to go around. I would have carried the first young guy at the mall if need be.

Some people say that's pity for them, and an insult, but I don't think it is. Perhaps they think they have the greatest lives, but no one should have to be so disadvantaged. My sister-in-law is one of the most miserable, nasty, deceitful, dishonest persons you could meet. But if for one moment I could make her see why she has pushed everyone away, and/or why she leads the life she does, I would. Her karma? Maybe, but wouldn't it be my job to guide her? Of course, after I learned what I need to.

...but to practice one needs to be prepaired to start at the begining and progress surely and steadily .

Then this is something I need to look into.

shuddhasattva has allready writen on some of the many horrors comitted in the name of tibetan buddhism , these horrors are not only committed by imiture western practitioners but also by ordained tibetans , which purely goes to show how important correct and constant training and suppervision is !if the mind is not a pure clean vessel one CANOT put pure teachings or instruction to practice in it without those pure teachings becoming sullied !

This is what happens when humans get involved in anything!

I have a sujestion for you and a good topic for discussion , 'Lojong '(mind training) which consists of 59 aphorisms , each worthy of deep study and aplication .

Very good, I will look into. I have read some of J. Krishnamurti's meditations, but from what I've seen they really only deal with day-to-day life. As much as I love Paramahansa Yogananda and his works, they too are for day-to-day life. None of these go deeply into the subject we are discussing, imo.

 

[Jainarayan]

continued ....
text from dear wicki , trungpas translation ,

read many translations and comentarys then apply buddhas rule ,


but on the sad subject above trungpa although a briliant mind still fell down !

This will take some time to get through, but is on my to-do list.

 

[Jainarayan]

I have a sujestion for you and a good topic for discussion , 'Lojong '(mind training) which consists of 59 aphorisms , each worthy of deep study and aplication .

Oh boy, does this talk to me! These verses are getting printed out and framed (I do that a lot ).

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/Downloads/LojongTexts-AnAnthology.pdf

Eight Verses of Mind Training
By Geshe Langri Thangpa

1. By thinking of all sentient beings
As more precious than a wish fulfilling jewel
For accomplishing the highest aim,
I will always hold them dear.

2. Whenever I’m in the company of others,
I will regard myself as the lowest among all,
And from the depths of my heart
Cherish others as supreme.

3. In my every action, I will watch my mind,
And the moment destructive emotions arise,
I will confront them strongly and avert them,
Since they will hurt both others and me.

4. Whenever I see ill-natured beings,
Or those overwhelmed by heavy misdeeds or
Suffering, I will cherish them as something rare,
As though I’d found a priceless treasure.

5. Whenever someone out of envy
Does me wrong by attacking or belittling me,
I will take defeat upon myself,
And give the victory to others.

6. Even when someone I have helped,
Or in whom I have placed great hopes
Mistreats me very unjustly,
I will view that person as a true spiritual teacher.

7. In brief, directly or indirectly,
I will offer help and happiness to all my mothers,
And secretly take upon myself
All their hurt and suffering.

8. I will learn to keep all these practices
Untainted by thoughts of
The eight worldly concerns.
May I recognize all things as like illusions,
And, without attachment,
Gain freedom from bondage.

 

[Jainarayan]

Oh boy, does this talk to me! These verses are getting printed out and framed (I do that a lot ).

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/Downloads/LojongTexts-AnAnthology.pdf

Lojong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (summary) There is a lot in here that screams "I come from the Bhagavad Gita!"

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I've always heard that the reason why Vajrayana schools in general, and Tibetan in particular, keep their teachings a secret, is that they, without proper guidance, can cause severe mental breakdown if done improperly or at the wrong time. As Luis pointed out, with something that promises speed, this would seem to be the case. But Shuddhasattva said something that made me think of some of the things happening in my own tradition (Zen), and I think he's right in that some of it is nothing more than a power struggle, keeping disciple in a grip of fear instead of disseminating the teachings of the Buddha.

It's well known that in the Zen tradition, the teacher-student relationship is important. However, the teacher is only there as a guide, the finger pointing at the moon. It's his job to make sure the student is on the proper path, and that the students practice is correct, and to verify kensho and satori experiences. Ultimately, the practice is the students own, only he/she can do it for him/her-self. However, nowadays, we see the same kind of power play in Zen that Shuddhasattva was referring to that is going on in Tibetan. There are many schools, however, and unfortunately, there are so few roshis (masters) who can properly teach, much less transmit, the dharma. And I think I know one of the main reasons, and I actually started a thread on this not too long ago:

When Buddhism came to the west, it changed form, for better or worse. It was said that it changed to click with the western mindset and culture, however, it oftentimes did this at the expense of true teaching. Buddhism became not much more than a fad alternative religion for hippy's upset with traditional Christianity, but who wanted a form of spirituality that would give justification to their culture. And this is the type of Buddhism that grew in the west. But then something happened: this type of Buddhism made it back to the east, where cultural accretions were already obscuring the Buddha's teachings. So now, all over the world, it's becoming harder and harder to find the Buddha's teaching, or rather, people who have experience with it and who can teach it properly to students.

So now we have today teachers who's sole purpose is to use Buddhism as a means to secure power and control over people, but who could care less about the Buddha's dharma. Now, there is inherent dangers associated with the fast track practice of Vajrayana, but are those dangers as bad as what one reads in texts describing them? I doubt it. But who knows, I could be wrong. In Zen, one is almost better off practicing by oneself. It's sad that something that can bring liberation has come down to nothing more than a political dictatorship at worst, or high school teenager games, at best.

So my advice, would be not to worry too much about the 'dangers', but do proceed with caution. And as Shuddhasattva said, it's time the floodgates were opened, because the buddhadharma is needed now more than ever, to a world going to hell. Ok, my rant is over.

 

[ratikala]

dear jainarayan ,

Oh boy, does this talk to me! These verses are getting printed out and framed (I do that a lot ).

Ah Ha thought you'd like that

and framing something , yes Ive done plenty of that , I used to do a lot of dilligent writing down in a little book so I could carry texts around with me because I just found them so wonderfull !

 

[ratikala]

Lojong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (summary) There is a lot in here that screams "I come from the Bhagavad Gita!"

the truth realised is the same truth , only the method of conveying it differs ,

now you can understand how I could take so easily to the gita , when truth is spoken hopefully the wise will recognise and rejoice in it where ever and how ever it occurs .

so one could say pure realisation comes from a pure mind :namaste

 

[Jainarayan]

So my advice, would be not to worry too much about the 'dangers', but do proceed with caution.

Yes indeed, I intend to tread lightly. One thing I have discovered within the past two days or so in talking about bodhicitta and the bodhisattva vow is that, while using the phrase "drawn to it" is not the right term, "blossoming" or "emerging" is. I refer back to my comments about "to protect and serve". I have always had a desire to help others. Maybe this will be the way, maybe not. Only time will tell.

I had a discussion with my boss, who is also a friend of >27 years, about how I just cannot do this business (IT) anymore. That is another rant I posted somewhere else. Thirty two years of doing nothing to benefit mankind. I spoke with deliberateness and said "This business is doing nothing for my emotional, spiritual or physical health. I do nothing to help anyone. This is not who I am or where my talents lie". He looked at me understandingly and said, "well, when the time comes give me 30 days notice". "Thirty days!? You'll get 30 minutes!" :biglaugh:

Now, am I going to make some rash decision? Of course not. I have no idea what I would do yet. If it will happen, it will happen. But I will say this, Lord Vishnu will not let me do anything stupid. My faith in His guidance is absolute, whether He Himself whispers in my ear or someone or something else guides me.

My point is that from where I am sitting, that is the sort of danger one can encounter... "Oh I'm going to pursue this path, so I will turn my life upside down for it". Nuh uh... that's wrong.

dear jainarayan ,



Ah Ha thought you'd like that

and framing something , yes Ive done plenty of that , I used to do a lot of dilligent writing down in a little book so I could carry texts around with me because I just found them so wonderfull !

I'm lost without Word. I format and print these pages, and have them bound into little 4x6" booklets as well as framing a single page. My cubicle wall is now plastered with all kinds of verses, not to mention my deity pictures.

I thought someone would say something about "proselytizing", but then I'd have to say "Do we have a Constitutional issue here?" (religion... free exercise thereof). But my boss only asked who they are. I told him, Lord Shiva who destroys the negative; Maa Saraswati who brings knowledge; and so on. He said "Great! we can use more of them around here".

 

[Jainarayan]

the truth realised is the same truth , only the method of conveying it differs ,

A little "Ekam sat... " huh?

now you can understand how I could take so easily to the gita , when truth is spoken hopefully the wise will recognise and rejoice in it where ever and how ever it occurs .

so one could say pure realisation comes from a pure mind :namaste

Unfortunately all too often it is more like: "There are none so blind as they who will not see; none so deaf as they who will not hear" or words to that effect from another enlightened one.

ETA: Btw now you can see how I'm coming at it from the opposite angle... seeing the Bhagavad Gita on the Buddhist side of the fence.

 

[ratikala]

dear dyanaprajna ,

I've always heard that the reason why Vajrayana schools in general, and Tibetan in particular, keep their teachings a secret, is that they, without proper guidance, can cause severe mental breakdown if done improperly or at the wrong time.

most importantly done with the wrong motivation , yes , look at it closely a while back covering this subject I said the result of tantra done incorectly results in delusion , you say mental breakdown , yes simply an overload of delusional thinking .

when I say done with the wrong motivation , if practiced correctly under the guidance if an astute master , he will corect the motivation of the aspirant before going on to initiate the student in to tantric practices .

As Luis pointed out, with something that promises speed, this would seem to be the case. But Shuddhasattva said something that made me think of some of the things happening in my own tradition (Zen), and I think he's right in that some of it is nothing more than a power struggle, keeping disciple in a grip of fear instead of disseminating the teachings of the Buddha.

there are a lot of people teaching that could do with mastering the eight fold path before they even think to teach , then if they wish to teach the tibetan system they should refer back to lojong teachings constantly any one seeking to control students should not be teaching FULL STOP!

It's well known that in the Zen tradition, the teacher-student relationship is important. However, the teacher is only there as a guide, the finger pointing at the moon. It's his job to make sure the student is on the proper path, and that the students practice is correct, and to verify kensho and satori experiences. Ultimately, the practice is the students own, only he/she can do it for him/her-self.

agreed entirely , the teacher is there to nurture the correct attitude in the student .
yes the student must allso put in the efort there is no way it can be acheived any other way , but there is more to teaching than simply guiding , , one guides , one inspires and all importantly nurtures , good teaching takes a lot of love , effort and total dedication .
good teachers have allways been rare , what we are seeing today is often well intentioned but more often than not dangerous .

However, nowadays, we see the same kind of power play in Zen that Shuddhasattva was referring to that is going on in Tibetan. There are many schools, however, and unfortunately, there are so few roshis (masters) who can properly teach, much less transmit, the dharma. And I think I know one of the main reasons, and I actually started a thread on this not too long ago:

this power play you describe ,
in sanskrit it is called 'ahamkara' false identification with the self , one who understands the true nature of self never seeks to control , there is no need ther is no self to assert , no self to defend , there is only the dharma to rejoice in and to share .

When Buddhism came to the west, it changed form, for better or worse. It was said that it changed to click with the western mindset and culture, however, it oftentimes did this at the expense of true teaching. Buddhism became not much more than a fad alternative religion for hippy's upset with traditional Christianity, but who wanted a form of spirituality that would give justification to their culture.

quite possibly they were upset with the whole culture and looking for a new identity ,
but it is not that easy to simply put on another culture as one would a suit of clothes , outwardly it appears to look the same , but inwardly not so easy , infact not easy at all !

And this is the type of Buddhism that grew in the west. But then something happened: this type of Buddhism made it back to the east, where cultural accretions were already obscuring the Buddha's teachings. So now, all over the world, it's becoming harder and harder to find the Buddha's teaching, or rather, people who have experience with it and who can teach it properly to students.

the problem that I have experienced coming up against the western take on buddhism is that they like the fancy bits , all the dramatic stuff , but feel them selves to be above the hard work basic teachings .
the buddhas true message has become clouded , obscured ! cluttered , what was about simplicity , clarity and purity , has become eclectic , and confused .

So now we have today teachers who's sole purpose is to use Buddhism as a means to secure power and control over people, but who could care less about the Buddha's dharma. Now, there is inherent dangers associated with the fast track practice of Vajrayana, but are those dangers as bad as what one reads in texts describing them? I doubt it. But who knows, I could be wrong. In Zen, one is almost better off practicing by oneself. It's sad that something that can bring liberation has come down to nothing more than a political dictatorship at worst, or high school teenager games, at best.

on one hand I agree with the practicing by onself , I did it for years before joining a school , which I then had to leave because of mall practices , had I not studdied alone I would not even have known that some of their behavior was wrong ! but on the other hand one can practice eight fold path alone one can meditate but is not realy practicing tantra without the initiation and blessing to do so .and that I am firm on !
[/quote]
So my advice, would be not to worry too much about the 'dangers', but do proceed with caution. And as Shuddhasattva said, it's time the floodgates were opened, because the buddhadharma is needed now more than ever, to a world going to hell. Ok, my rant is over. [/quote]

agreed by all means read up on it aquaint oneself with the motivation behind it , but understand this it is not buddha dharma in the conventional sence .
again I agree we desperately need the buddha dharma now more than ever , but because of the age we live in we need simple practice 'eight fold path' , that is the dharma the buddha of this age taught .if you want to follow the tibetan tradition just be aware that to practice these colourfull fancy practices one needs both feet firmly on the ground and the mind fully trained or there is great possibility that one sets oneself back lifetimes .