The snake didn´t lie, God cheated

[Me Myself]

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

So, it was not eating from the knowledge tree that made human die, it was God not letting him keep eating from the tree of life.

The snake was right. God said so (in that myth at least) because he did not want the man to be like him. He says exactly that and takes away the fruit just because of that.

I mean, it would have simply been more honest to just tell the man "don´t eat that fruit because I will not let you keep living on anymore" He made it out as if it was poisonous.

Why even put the tree there then?

It´s just such a poor management o.0

Furthermore, the more sense would be that there really were more than one gods there. I mean, only one being would need to at least have a couple of personality disorders to be that incongruent.

 

[Super Universe]

But God put the tree there to begin with. And God is all knowing so He knew that humans would eat the fruit but wanted them to assume all responsibility for ending their childish innocence on their own.

 

[mycorrhiza]

Well, according to some gnostic texts there actually were more than one God there (the demiurge and the rulers). They were lower creatures than the true God and had created the physical world, a mere shadow of the true God's spiritual world. They wanted to keep the humans from "eating of the fruit" (I guess that would mean achieving gnosis, since Jesus is also referred to as the fruit in some of these texts) because they were hungry for power and didn't want the humans to know the real God. After the humans ate the fruit, they abandoned the lower Gods, because they knew that they were evil.

These stories are mythology. Only a small minority (well, a large minority if we look at the US) interpret the stories as actual events. So it's not too weird that there actually was a tree there, as it probably is symbolic.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Have you ever even considered taking the time to avail yourself of the available Jewish commentary on the text? Why not?

Everyone has the right to uninformed opinions but I see little value in abusing that right.

 

[crossfire]

If you are going to learn the difference of good and evil via the school of hard knocks, you are going to experience suffering. How kind would it be to impose suffering without an ending?

 

[Breathe]

Have you ever even considered taking the time to avail yourself of the available Jewish commentary on the text? Why not?

Could you point me in the right direction for a Jewish commentary (preferably online)? All I have is a Christian Study Bible, which I don't think is that great at the best of times, unfortunately.

 

[crossfire]

Could you point me in the right direction for a Jewish commentary (preferably online)? All I have is a Christian Study Bible, which I don't think is that great at the best of times, unfortunately.

You can try this:
Genesis - Chapter 3 (Parshah Berei****) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I generally agree with the OP. I scanned the link Crossfire gave, and the commentary does not really seem to disagree much with the idea of the lie; rather it seems to skirt the issue entirely.

It is not logical to assume that the scripture would specifically point out that God lied, in such precise words, in any case.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Could you point me in the right direction for a Jewish commentary (preferably online)?

The JPS Commentary comes to mind. Both would require a purchase or library visit. Moving beyond easily accessible Jewish commentary there is also resources such as NICOT.

My only wish would be that people respected the topic enough to offer informed opinions or thoughtful questions.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I mean, it would have simply been more honest to just tell the man "don´t eat that fruit because I will not let you keep living on anymore" He made it out as if it was poisonous.

Alter notes that the grammatical form is what is called "the infinitive absolute" and translates it as a death sentence, i.e., "doomed to die." There is no denotation or connotation of poisonous fruit.

 

[Me Myself]

Have you ever even considered taking the time to avail yourself of the available Jewish commentary on the text? Why not?

Everyone has the right to uninformed opinions but I see little value in abusing that right.

You have a right to not share the information in a perfectly appropriate medium (like this one) if you do not wish to share it. I am puzzled as to why you are enforcing such right now though

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You have a right to not share the information in a perfectly appropriate medium (like this one) if you do not wish to share it. I am puzzled as to why you are enforcing such right now though

Two points:

1. You never asked for information, apparently believing that you were in need of none.
2. Nevertheless, I did share information in my preceding post. Please do not blame me for you inability or unwillingness to recognize the information offered.

 

[Me Myself]

Two points:

1. You never asked for information, apparently believing that you were in need of none.
2. Nevertheless, I did share information in my preceding post. Please do not blame me for you inability or unwillingness to recognize the information offered.

I blame no one. I never asked for info, but I find it relevant, you again didn´t share any more, and that is cool.

I expect people to share their info on the subject I put up, but you have no duty to fulfill my expectations anyways

The Jewish perspective is not my main interest in the thread though. I mean as I said, it is always cool to know (specially if someone is willing to give the info) but my main thought when I did this is that some people say the snake was lying, and I can´t understand how they say that reading such text. This people don´t tend to be Jew. If the Jew see it similarly for some reason you have no interest in sharing, oh well

 

[averageJOE]

But God put the tree there to begin with. And God is all knowing so He knew that humans would eat the fruit but wanted them to assume all responsibility for ending their childish innocence on their own.

IOW god set them up for failure.

 

[Super Universe]

Heaven and forgiveness and salvation are failure?

 

[McBell]

Heaven and forgiveness and salvation are failure?

:biglaugh:
Sad that you are unable to stay on topic.

 

[Hawkins]

Deception means close to but twisted the truth.

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

It says that humans are like us, they can judge good and evil now. But it never mean to say that humans can judge good and evil as precisely as God does. Just like what you are doing now, you are like God to judge everything including "judging God" and "judging His words" in this very thread. But it by no means says that your judgment is correct.

However, to have a look at what the serpent says,

You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

Here, it means to say that not only you will be able to judge, but also that you will be like God (as precise as He does in judgments). That's where the deception is from.

As for stopping them from eating from the Tree of Life. The verse means to say that "they can judge good and evil now (but without God's precision), the consequence will be serious if they are allowed to eat from the Tree of Life too.

Humans judge by their intelligence, just like you do in this single thread, the motive behind however is to rebel against God. So understand this exact circumstance, if you are given the eternal life in heaven, the consequence will be serious. As a result, it's better that your kind should be blocked from reaching heaven.

That's pretty much what the Bible would like to say, while I added its life application here.

 

[Me Myself]

Deception means close to but twisted the truth.

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

It says that humans are like us, they can judge good and evil now. But it never mean to say that humans can judge good and evil as precisely as God does. Just like what you are doing now, you are like God to judge everything including "judging God" and "judging His words" in this very thread. But it by no means says that your judgment is correct.

However, to have a look at what the serpent says,

You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

Here, it means to say that not only you will be able to judge, but also that you will be like God (as precise as He does in judgments). That's where the deception is from.

God specifically says that they are like "them" in being able to judge good and evil. The part of not being as precise is nowhere in the genesis story. You pretty much just made it up now.

As for stopping them from eating from the Tree of Life. The verse means to say that "they can judge good and evil now (but without God's precision), the consequence will be serious if they are allowed to eat from the Tree of Life too.

The bolded part is YOUR corruption of the text. I can do that too, but it would be silly for me to expect others to believe me. I could say:

"they can judge Good and evil now (but without God´s precision "Because they are more accurate than him) ) the consequence is...

Anyone analyzing it with minimum sense would say I just made up a part, just like you just made up a part. If you find me a bible with the specification you are talking about that is sufficiently ancient, then that´d be wild different.

Humans judge by their intelligence, just like you do in this single thread, the motive behind however is to rebel against God. So understand this exact circumstance, if you are given the eternal life in heaven, the consequence will be serious. As a result, it's better that your kind should be blocked from reaching heaven.

My "kind" ? My "kind" deserves eternal hell, yes?

That's pretty much what the Bible would like to say, while I added its life application here.

I´d say what the story would like to say is that God in such story is not omnipotent nor omniscient ( as it is clearly seen in the story) and that the snake told the truth: it was not them eating the fruit of knowledge, but God´s envy that did not let them live on (exactly as God says before your corruption of the text with the " ( )" )

 

[Super Universe]

:biglaugh:
Sad that you are unable to stay on topic.

What's sad is the obsession you have with me.

 

[Me Myself]

What's sad is the obsession you have with me.

again outside of topic

(had to say it )