where is it written?

[URAVIP2ME]

So Eve was deceived. And God, instead of forgiving her, he punishes her. I will never understand the so called "Biblic morality"

What was there to forgive?

God can not lie [ Titus 1 v 2 ]. God's law said you eat you die. Eve ate Eve died.

Remember A&E were created with human perfection.
Unlike us who make mistakes through no fault of our own is different from a lawbreaker who has human perfection of heart, mind and body as A&E did.

Our leanings are bent toward: imperfection.
Their leanings were upright toward: perfection.
They had to choose disobedience by choice.
We can be disobedient through no fault of our own.
That is why if we repent we can be forgiven.

There is no record of Satan and the fallen angels ever showing remorse or repenting.
Adam and Eve showed no remorse and they never repented either.

If God would have gone back on his word about eating that would not show forgiveness but would show God does not keep his word or his law.

 

[kylixguru]

So Eve was deceived. And God, instead of forgiving her, he punishes her. I will never understand the so called "Biblic morality"

Eve was disobedient and suffered the natural consequences of her disobedience.

This is an example of the logic you say is something you can never understand:

Person A says to person B: If you jump off this cliff you will fall and die.
Person C says to person B: If you jump off this cliff you won't fall and die.
Person B jumps off the cliff and falls and dies.

 

[sojourner]

Eve was disobedient and suffered the natural consequences of her disobedience.

This is an example of the logic you say is something you can never understand:

Person A says to person B: If you jump off this cliff you will fall and die.
Person C says to person B: If you jump off this cliff you won't fall and die.
Person B jumps off the cliff and falls and dies.

Except she didn't. She went on to have a family.

 

[kylixguru]

Except she didn't. She went on to have a family.

When Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden they were separated from God.
Separation from God is spiritual death.
Fortunately, they were eventually redeemed from such and Adam finished out His life and performed the responsibilities He was given.

 

[sojourner]

When Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden they were separated from God.
Separation from God is spiritual death.
Fortunately, they were eventually redeemed from such and Adam finished out His life and performed the responsibilities He was given.

But that's not what the text says. the text says, "...in the day that you eat of it, you shall die." It doesn't say "die spiritually." It says, "die." As in "expire." That idea is congruent with several of the ancient religions from which the creation myth is derived.

 

[kylixguru]

But that's not what the text says. the text says, "...in the day that you eat of it, you shall die." It doesn't say "die spiritually." It says, "die." As in "expire." That idea is congruent with several of the ancient religions from which the creation myth is derived.

They were shut out from the presence of God.
That is understood as spiritual death and it happened.

 

[sojourner]

They were shut out from the presence of God.
That is understood as spiritual death and it happened.

No they weren't. They were shut out of the garden, and they lived. God didn't exist only in the garden.

 

[kylixguru]

No they weren't. They were shut out of the garden, and they lived. God didn't exist only in the garden.

They were no longer able to have direct communion with God after they were banished from the Garden.
They were ministered to by those who were able to redeem them such that they regained their ability to have direct communion with God again.

And, as for their physical death, notice that neither of them lived for more than 1,000 years, which is as a single day unto the Lord. So, in that sense, they did die "in the day thereof" if you look at it in those terms.

So, it was true both on the physical and on the spiritual levels.

 

[sojourner]

They were no longer able to have direct communion with God after they were banished from the Garden.
They were ministered to by those who were able to redeem them such that they regained their ability to have direct communion with God again.

And, as for their physical death, notice that neither of them lived for more than 1,000 years, which is as a single day unto the Lord. So, in that sense, they did die "in the day thereof" if you look at it in those terms.

So, it was true both on the physical and on the spiritual levels.

You really like to stretch things. It'd be so much simpler to just take the text for what it is, rather than inventing convoluted interpretations, yes?

 

[otokage007]

What was there to forgive?

God can not lie [ Titus 1 v 2 ]. God's law said you eat you die. Eve ate Eve died.

Remember A&E were created with human perfection.
Unlike us who make mistakes through no fault of our own is different from a lawbreaker who has human perfection of heart, mind and body as A&E did.

Our leanings are bent toward: imperfection.
Their leanings were upright toward: perfection.
They had to choose disobedience by choice.
We can be disobedient through no fault of our own.
That is why if we repent we can be forgiven.

There is no record of Satan and the fallen angels ever showing remorse or repenting.
Adam and Eve showed no remorse and they never repented either.

If God would have gone back on his word about eating that would not show forgiveness but would show God does not keep his word or his law.

It's not that she purposedly ate the apple, as you have said "she was deceived". And by the best deceiver in the world. Is this really punishable? I think a being of eternal love would not punish a decieved person!

 

[kylixguru]

It's not that she purposedly ate the apple, as you have said "she was deceived". And by the best deceiver in the world. Is this really punishable? I think a being of eternal love would not punish a decieved person!

That's why angels were sent to minister to them to redeem them promptly.

 

[kylixguru]

You really like to stretch things. It'd be so much simpler to just take the text for what it is, rather than inventing convoluted interpretations, yes?

I have deciphered the symbolic text for what it actually says.
I know quite a bit more about Adam and Eve too, but this thread isn't the place to discuss it.

 

[sincerly]

It's not that she purposedly ate the apple, as you have said "she was deceived". And by the best deceiver in the world. Is this really punishable? I think a being of eternal love would not punish a decieved person!

Hi otokage,The scriptures were specific. Eve did eat of the forbidden fruit. She, also, knew the "command' and the "consequence"---again, specific. The deception wasn't from lack of knowledge from GOD, but in doubting GOD by false information--believed which was contrary to that GOD had given.

GOD was /is that LOVING GOD and the punishment was minimal---now be subject to her husband and childbirth would be painful-----instead of immediate death. However, they would die the first (physical)death, but the spiritual death had already occurred. That is why Jesus declared that one had to be "Born Again".(another topic).
As Peter stated, (II 3:9)"GOD is Long-suffering not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance."

What you have proposed is no sinner should be punished by death. Which would make GOD a liar and earth an inhabited place of chaotic behavor.

 

[Harmonious]

So Eve was deceived. And God, instead of forgiving her, he punishes her. I will never understand the so called "Biblic morality"

It wasn't the deception she was punished for.

Eating the fruit was a sin, sure. But that wasn't the only sin that went on there.

When asked what he did, Adam turned around with serious ingratitude, and blamed his sin (which might have even been thought of as a mistake) on GOD. In a paraphrase: "If it wasn't for this woman, which YOU gave me, I never would have sinned."

Really? He could have been a man, and owned up to his responsibility. But it was more important to pass the blame than to admit he was wrong.

Eve was then questioned, and instead of admitting her guilt, she blamed the snake.

And the snake lied and deceived to start with.

When you consider that the evil, hurtful speech that went on, THAT was the unforgivable sin, rather than eating the wrong fruit. However, the fruit was most definitely the catalyst for what went wrong, as that was the only thing that was actually forbidden at the time.

They lied, they slandered, they spoke hurtfully. THIS is more along the lines of injustice, and for THAT they were exiled and punished with death.

Note - while eating the fruit was the high ticket item that was mentioned in conjunction with death, if the texts are to be believed, Adam lived to be 930 years old.

Obviously, eating the fruit isn't the ultimate problem. Nor was being deceived. It was EVERYTHING ELSE.

 

[kylixguru]

It wasn't the deception she was punished for.

Eating the fruit was a sin, sure. But that wasn't the only sin that went on there.

When asked what he did, Adam turned around with serious ingratitude, and blamed his sin (which might have even been thought of as a mistake) on GOD. In a paraphrase: "If it wasn't for this woman, which YOU gave me, I never would have sinned."

Really? He could have been a man, and owned up to his responsibility. But it was more important to pass the blame than to admit he was wrong.

Eve was then questioned, and instead of admitting her guilt, she blamed the snake.

And the snake lied and deceived to start with.

When you consider that the evil, hurtful speech that went on, THAT was the unforgivable sin, rather than eating the wrong fruit. However, the fruit was most definitely the catalyst for what went wrong, as that was the only thing that was actually forbidden at the time.

They lied, they slandered, they spoke hurtfully. THIS is more along the lines of injustice, and for THAT they were exiled and punished with death.

Note - while eating the fruit was the high ticket item that was mentioned in conjunction with death, if the texts are to be believed, Adam lived to be 930 years old.

Obviously, eating the fruit isn't the ultimate problem. Nor was being deceived. It was EVERYTHING ELSE.

I'm not comfortable with that assessment.
Adam admitted "I did eat".
He gave the reason he ate.
He told God that it was his intention to face the same fate as his wife, because God commanded him to remain with her.

Add: I also dare say because he loved her.

 

[otokage007]

It wasn't the deception she was punished for.

Eating the fruit was a sin, sure. But that wasn't the only sin that went on there.

When asked what he did, Adam turned around with serious ingratitude, and blamed his sin (which might have even been thought of as a mistake) on GOD. In a paraphrase: "If it wasn't for this woman, which YOU gave me, I never would have sinned."

Really? He could have been a man, and owned up to his responsibility. But it was more important to pass the blame than to admit he was wrong.

Eve was then questioned, and instead of admitting her guilt, she blamed the snake.

And the snake lied and deceived to start with.

When you consider that the evil, hurtful speech that went on, THAT was the unforgivable sin, rather than eating the wrong fruit. However, the fruit was most definitely the catalyst for what went wrong, as that was the only thing that was actually forbidden at the time.

They lied, they slandered, they spoke hurtfully. THIS is more along the lines of injustice, and for THAT they were exiled and punished with death.

Note - while eating the fruit was the high ticket item that was mentioned in conjunction with death, if the texts are to be believed, Adam lived to be 930 years old.

Obviously, eating the fruit isn't the ultimate problem. Nor was being deceived. It was EVERYTHING ELSE.

"Your faults as a son are my failure as a father." Or so they say.

Is God a failed father?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"Your faults as a son are my failure as a father." Or so they say.
Is God a failed father?

Let's start with God's two heavenly sons: Jesus and Satan.
One was a faithful Son
One was an un-faithful son.

Both rule or manage an organization.

Son Satan as the 'god' [ruler] of this world of badness -2nd Cor 4 v 4; 1st John 5 v 19
Son Jesus as 'Mighty God' of God's Messianic Kingdom.- Isaiah 9 vs 6,7; 16 v 5

Both have understanding of human nature, but the quality of rulership is vastly different.

We see the results of Satan's understanding shown today in his being the god of this world of badness. -Matthew chap. 24; Luke chapter 21

Jesus has extraordinary understanding as being born as a human, and the qualities of his rule in the coming new world of righteousness [Jesus millennial reign] will be the qualities Jesus displayed while on earth with his healings including resurrections, and regulating the weather by his calming the stormy seas.
-2nd Peter 3 v 13

Eden was earthly bliss. Outside of Eden [earth today] there is the opposite of bliss.
Satan's rule did not re-establish Eden on earth.
Jesus' rule, on the other hand, will restore Eden [paradisaic conditions] on earth.
-Rev. 21 vs 4,5; 22 v 2

If God failed as a Father, Jesus would not have been willing to die for us, and come to our rescue by delivering us by saving us through the coming great tribulation right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth when Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
-Rev. 7 v 14

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It wasn't the deception she was punished for.
Eating the fruit was a sin, sure. But that wasn't the only sin that went on there.
When asked what he did, Adam turned around with serious ingratitude, and blamed his sin (which might have even been thought of as a mistake) on GOD. In a paraphrase: "If it wasn't for this woman, which YOU gave me, I never would have sinned."
Really? He could have been a man, and owned up to his responsibility. But it was more important to pass the blame than to admit he was wrong.
Eve was then questioned, and instead of admitting her guilt, she blamed the snake.
And the snake lied and deceived to start with.
When you consider that the evil, hurtful speech that went on, THAT was the unforgivable sin, rather than eating the wrong fruit. However, the fruit was most definitely the catalyst for what went wrong, as that was the only thing that was actually forbidden at the time.
They lied, they slandered, they spoke hurtfully. THIS is more along the lines of injustice, and for THAT they were exiled and punished with death.
Note - while eating the fruit was the high ticket item that was mentioned in conjunction with death, if the texts are to be believed, Adam lived to be 930 years old.
Obviously, eating the fruit isn't the ultimate problem. Nor was being deceived. It was EVERYTHING ELSE.

Good points ^ above ^

Please note that the 'day' of their eating was Not a 24-hr. day but a 1000-yr. day.
Even Methuselah died before age 1000, living 969 years.- Gen. 5 v 27

By eating the forbidden fruit they were also breaking the law.
The punishment for the law breakers was death within that thousand-year day.
The forbidden tree was not evil in itself because the tree represented to law.
There was nothing wrong with the law itself.
They were banished, not because they knew evil, but banished because they disobeyed. Disobeyed by breaking God's law, and out of all the trees existing on earth stealing from God's one-and-only tree.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But that's not what the text says. the text says, "...in the day that you eat of it, you shall die." It doesn't say "die spiritually." It says, "die." As in "expire." That idea is congruent with several of the ancient religions from which the creation myth is derived.

Not a creation myth. Not spiritual death although they did die spiritually.
A literal death of Genesis 2 v 17.

There seems to be a lack of knowledge about the flexible use of the word: day.
In Scripture the word day has shades of meaning, or units of time that vary in length.
For example:
All of the creative days are summed up by the word 'day' at Gen. 2 v 4.
The length of daylight hours are called 'day' at Gen. 1 v 5
The 7th day was still on-going in Paul's day at Hebrews chapter 4.
Jesus 1000-year reign is a millennial-long day.

The 'day' of Genesis 2 v 17 is as Peter mentions at 2nd Peter 3 v 8.
God's day is: one-thousand years in length.
Or, as the Psalmist wrote that in God's eyes or viewpoint a thousand years is as yesterday or a watch in the night. [Psalm 90 v 4]

That the 'day' of Genesis 2v17 is a thousand years is also shown in the ages of people at their death. Adam lived under 1000 years dying at age 930.
Even the oldest person in Scripture died before age 1000 dying at age 969.

Hope the ^ above ^ has been of some help.

 

[sojourner]

I have deciphered the symbolic text for what it actually says.

The biggest problem here is that you have misunderstood "metaphor" for "symbolic." Therefore, you cannot know "what it actually says."

Metaphor (what the text is) speaks to reality via substitutionary pictures. Symbolism (what the text patently is not) seeks to impart some hidden meaning that was never intended.

The second largest problem is that you actually have the hubris to think you've unlocked something that thousand of people, across thousands of years, have somehow failed to figure out with any success.

I know quite a bit more about Adam and Eve too, but this thread isn't the place to discuss it.

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