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Artificial Intelligence

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
They have a physical basis in objective reality. We create subjective interpretations of them. Subjective interpretations cannot appear out of nothing. You really should read up on neurology to understand the ontological gap. I'm tired of explaining myself over and over again.

How can you not understand that right here you accept physicalism? You seriously dpn't realize that subjective interpretations having a physical cause is the exact opposite of them appearing out of nowhere? You are the one who is arguing that they just appear and have no cause, though at least are arguing that the cause is metaphysical.

This is called the 'hard problem of consciousness'. Nobel prize winners agree with me that this is a problem. Very few scientists and philosophers just brush it off. I cannot explain it to you anymore because you fail to grasp it. I'm not trying to be mean but you really must read up on it before defending a position with an incomplete perspective.

Nobel prize winners agree subjective experience exist? I would hope so, my little cousin understand that! Nothing you have shown invalidates physicalism, and you are the one failing to grasp that experiences having a very specific, observable, physical cause doea not equal them being cometely novel and uncaused. It is a blatant contradiction that you somehow don't see :facepalm:
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I know this. Everyone in neuroscience knows this. How do the brain signals create sound? Or the brain signals create feelings? Feelings are perceptions, not senses.

Okay for everyone here. From Hard problem of consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"It is undeniable that some organisms are subjects of experience. But the question of how it is that these systems are subjects of experience is perplexing. Why is it that when our cognitive systems engage in visual and auditory information-processing, we have visual or auditory experience: the quality of deep blue, the sensation of middle C? How can we explain why there is something it is like to entertain a mental image, or to experience an emotion? It is widely agreed that experience arises from a physical basis, but we have no good explanation of why and how it so arises. Why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life at all? It seems objectively unreasonable that it should, and yet it does." - David Chalmers

"T.H. Huxley remarked:
how it is that any thing so remarkable as a state of consciousness comes about as the result of irritating nervous tissue, is just as unaccountable as the appearance of the Djin when Aladdin rubbed his lamp.[10]"





Hahahaha even your source says it is widely accepted there is a physical cause (which contradicts your repeated claim to the contrary), just that we don't fully inderstand. Then the arguments of that literally are just the inability to wrap your head aroubd that. If I said evolution is too complex so obviously false, you would not agree.
 

MD

qualiaphile
Hahahaha even your source says it is widely accepted there is a physical cause (which contradicts your repeated claim to the contrary), just that we don't fully inderstand. Then the arguments of that literally are just the inability to wrap your head aroubd that. If I said evolution is too complex so obviously false, you would not agree.

I think you have a problem with reading, both of my sources claim that the physical basis is not enough to account for consciousness.

You also have a problem with accepting that your position is invalid and incomplete. That's why you ridicule, while idav is respectful. You don't like being wrong, so you try to evoke an emotional response in people. That is your nature. It's not of an intellectual or of a man, it's one of a child. I will stop responding to your posts from now on. Don't expect a reply.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I think you have a problem with reading, both of my sources claim that the physical basis is not enough to account for consciousness.

Your source also said the physical explanation is widely accepted, which is what I actually commented on. Yeah I have a reading issue...

Okay for everyone here. From Hard problem of consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"It is undeniable that some organisms are subjects of experience. But the question of how it is that these systems are subjects of experience is perplexing. Why is it that when our cognitive systems engage in visual and auditory information-processing, we have visual or auditory experience: the quality of deep blue, the sensation of middle C? How can we explain why there is something it is like to entertain a mental image, or to experience an emotion? It is widely agreed that experience arises from a physical basis, but we have no good explanation of why and how it so arises. Why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life at all? It seems objectively unreasonable that it should, and yet it does." - David Chalmers

:facepalm::facepalm: My god...

You also have a problem with accepting that your position is invalid and incomplete. That's why you ridicule, while idav is respectful. You don't like being wrong, so you try to evoke an emotional response in people. That is your nature. It's not of an intellectual or of a man, it's one of a child. I will stop responding to your posts from now on. Don't expect a reply.
How is my position invalid? Every time I show you that you position is unnecessary or against you own reason, or I point out glaring contradictions in your logic, you have a temper tanrum, call me a child, insult me, then run away. :shrug: What a joke.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Shahz, if you can explain how something have a completely physical, observable, testable, understandable cause like experience being explained physically can be the same as something being uncaused, novel, having no explanation, being incomprehensible and untestable is possible, you will have my respect. Nobody has ever explained away such a blatant contradiction of logic.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The gap cannot be filled by physical knowledge because sound and taste are not physical phenomenon. They have no basis in physical reality. They are mental phenomenon. There is a correlation to physical phenomenon no doubt. But they are not 'physical' because they only exist in our minds.
The mind is physical. The mind doesn't exist without the brain.

At the very basic level you have particles interacting with other particles. The neuron is enough to explain our consciousness, the neurons communicate with each to form a collective that we call consciousness. The sensations are us being aware of the electro-chemical communications. Note that you we don't know (aren't as aware of) what your heart cells are sensing, we only know what our neurons are sensing.
 

MD

qualiaphile
Your source also said the physical explanation is widely accepted, which is what I actually commented on. Yeah I have a reading issue...

Okay this is my last post to show how incredibly horrid your reading and comprehension skills are. You first of all ignored the Huxley post on the genie. Okay I knew that you would do that, being the sneaky person that you are.

"It is undeniable that some organisms are subjects of experience. But the question of how it is that these systems are subjects of experience is perplexing. Why is it that when our cognitive systems engage in visual and auditory information-processing, we have visual or auditory experience: the quality of deep blue, the sensation of middle C? How can we explain why there is something it is like to entertain a mental image, or to experience an emotion? It is widely agreed that experience arises from a physical basis, but we have no good explanation of why and how it so arises. Why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life at all? It seems objectively unreasonable that it should, and yet it does. "

I have never said that there isn't a physical basis. I say that there is another aspect to it. Secondly he says specifically that why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life at all. It seems OBJECTIVELY UNREASONABLE.

From Hard problem of consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The same person, David Chalmers (who is an atheist btw) says

"Chalmers argues that a ‘rich inner life’ is not logically reducible to the functional properties of physical processes. He states that consciousness must be described using nonphysical means. This description involves a fundamental ingredient capable of clarifying phenomena that have not been explained using physical means. Use of this fundamental property, Chalmers argues, is necessary to explain certain functions of the world, much like other fundamental features, such as mass and time, explain significant principles in nature."




"Some philosophers, including David Chalmers, argue that conscious experience is a fundamental constituent of the universe, a form of panpsychism sometimes referred to as panexperientialism."
 

MD

qualiaphile
The mind is physical. The mind doesn't exist without the brain.

I disagree, mind and matter are two constituents of the universe which give rise to what we define as consciousness.

At the very basic level you have particles interacting with other particles. The neuron is enough to explain our consciousness, the neurons communicate with each to form a collective that we call consciousness. The sensations are us being aware of the electro-chemical communications. Note that you we don't know (aren't as aware of) what your heart cells are sensing, we only know what our neurons are sensing.

Like I gave my examples of the supercomputer, the robot universe, the school of fish, strong emergence is different from weak emergence. Neural firing resulting in consciousness is an example of strong emergence. Strong emergence suggests that completely novel phenomenon that do not exist in a physical universe can be created from its base constituents. As such either gods are likely or the mental is a property of the physical universe.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Okay this is my last post to show how incredibly horrid your reading and comprehension skills are. You first of all ignored the Huxley post on the genie. Okay I knew that you would do that, being the sneaky person that you are.

"It is undeniable that some organisms are subjects of experience. But the question of how it is that these systems are subjects of experience is perplexing. Why is it that when our cognitive systems engage in visual and auditory information-processing, we have visual or auditory experience: the quality of deep blue, the sensation of middle C? How can we explain why there is something it is like to entertain a mental image, or to experience an emotion? It is widely agreed that experience arises from a physical basis, but we have no good explanation of why and how it so arises. Why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life at all? It seems objectively unreasonable that it should, and yet it does. "

Oh I am well aware that is said this, which I also addressed (but yeah, my reading skills lack). As said, the argument against it being all physical is "we don't fully understand yet / it seems to complex". So, I suppose you are a creationist also because evolution is pretty damn complex itself, hell it took a very long time to fully understand that! This is not a valid argument, the idea that one line of thought is invalid because our understanding of it is incomplete or we just can't accept things that are complicated.

Also, who cares that he's an atheist? Is that suppose to sway more or something?

I have never said that there isn't a physical basis. I say that there is another aspect to it. Secondly he says specifically that why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life at all. It seems OBJECTIVELY UNREASONABLE.
Ah I see, so you think it is fully explainable but that is not special enough or what? I mean, if you accept the fact that it has physical causes, why add the mystical nonsense? Again, his argument is "wow, this is complex and not fully understood, therefore magic!" :facepalm: no, not how it works.

"Chalmers argues that a ‘rich inner life’ is not logically reducible to the functional properties of physical processes. He states that consciousness must be described using nonphysical means. This description involves a fundamental ingredient capable of clarifying phenomena that have not been explained using physical means. Use of this fundamental property, Chalmers argues, is necessary to explain certain functions of the world, much like other fundamental features, such as mass and time, explain significant principles in nature."
Haha, what you made bold even says "have not been explained by physical terms". That does not imply it cannot, it implies he is too lazy and weak minded to see it through and find the answers. Imagine if every time we did not fully understand something we just gave up and accepted some silly idea. Darwin thought traits were inherited through blending, so do you still accept that? No, because we figured it out in the more than 100+ years after he came up with the idea! When an apple fell on Newton's head, was he just like "oh my, that is magical!" No, actually just the opposite which is why we now know that gravity exists. But, we still do not even fully understand gravity, so I suppose that implies magic.

I mean c'mon, if you are going to hold such lines of thought follow them through.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Why do you refuse to go into the implications of what consciousness being fundamental is? I mean, can I tap into this one-mind and present good reasoning to every atom in the universe, convincing them that they should be acting differently? I mean, do you not realize how absurd the idea of universal / fundamental consciousness is? Either every single thing in existence has complete free will or is a complete slave to this one-mind, you are really willing to believe this just because physicalism does not satisfy the human need to feel more special then simple chemical interactions? If so that is fine, I respect that choice. My best friend believes it, though in a different way. But I'm not going to accept it as true. I respect your mysticism, you respect my atheism, and that's that. But, if you are trying to label it as a fact and calling me stupid for not believing, no. That is not going to happen.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I disagree, mind and matter are two constituents of the universe which give rise to what we define as consciousness.



Like I gave my examples of the supercomputer, the robot universe, the school of fish, strong emergence is different from weak emergence. Neural firing resulting in consciousness is an example of strong emergence. Strong emergence suggests that completely novel phenomenon that do not exist in a physical universe can be created from its base constituents. As such either gods are likely or the mental is a property of the physical universe.
Nothing "new" is being made in the universe. By the time our earth formed we already had a full list of elements. We and our brains are of these fundamental elements found in the universe. Life happens with the elements in a periodic table and consciousness and volition are no different.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Like I gave my examples of the supercomputer, the robot universe, the school of fish, strong emergence is different from weak emergence. Neural firing resulting in consciousness is an example of strong emergence. Strong emergence suggests that completely novel phenomenon that do not exist in a physical universe can be created from its base constituents. As such either gods are likely or the mental is a property of the physical universe.

Your idea of weak and strong emergence sounds like the argument creationists give regarding micro vs. macro evolution. Emergent is emergent regardless of how long it took to come out or how complex it had to become.
 

MD

qualiaphile
Your idea of weak and strong emergence sounds like the argument creationists give regarding micro vs. macro evolution. Emergent is emergent regardless of how long it took to come out or how complex it had to become.

Unfortunately your inability to grasp this concept makes you label my views as one shared by creationists. It's a different category completely. By strong emergence I meant magically poofing into existence. You cannot break down qualia and yes to even understand information processing you need to break it down into understanding how different parts of a system work towards giving us a picture of the whole. If the system can be broken down to it's parts then it's weak emergence. I'll give one final example.

Weak emergence --> bricks come together to make a room, rooms come together to make a home, homes come together to make a city, etc

Strong emergence --> bricks come together to make genie rooms, genie rooms come together to make God homes, God homes come together to make olympus.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I figured as much. I'm going to start thread on AIs again all interested, keep the magic to a minimum haha.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Unfortunately your inability to grasp this concept makes you label my views as one shared by creationists. It's a different category completely. By strong emergence I meant magically poofing into existence. You cannot break down qualia and yes to even understand information processing you need to break it down into understanding how different parts of a system work towards giving us a picture of the whole. If the system can be broken down to it's parts then it's weak emergence. I'll give one final example.

Weak emergence --> bricks come together to make a room, rooms come together to make a home, homes come together to make a city, etc

Strong emergence --> bricks come together to make genie rooms, genie rooms come together to make God homes, God homes come together to make olympus.
I'm grasping what your saying I just disagree.

Emergence isn't magic at any point. When you look at the history of species on the planet you see higher levels of awareness emerge. You can even see it when comparing modern species.

You've said that perhaps lower lifeforms have a little qualia while saying we have more qualia. I don't really see it has having more qualia I see it as humans just being more complex but based on the same substances found in the universe. The difference between the awareness of a plant vs a mammal is complexity. Both plants and animals can sense light in one form or another.
 

MD

qualiaphile
I'm grasping what your saying I just disagree.

Emergence isn't magic at any point. When you look at the history of species on the planet you see higher levels of awareness emerge. You can even see it when comparing modern species.

You've said that perhaps lower lifeforms have a little qualia while saying we have more qualia. I don't really see it has having more qualia I see it as humans just being more complex but based on the same substances found in the universe. The difference between the awareness of a plant vs a mammal is complexity. Both plants and animals can sense light in one form or another.

Can you tell me how color is created from neural firing then? Or how the concept of light is created from neural firing?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Can you tell me how color is created from neural firing then? Or how the concept of light is created from neural firing?

We've said how. Light > Eye > Decoding > Brain (I left out magic). The cells do as instructed.

Are you asking what language the brain uses to translate, I don't think we have cracked that yet but we will.
 

MD

qualiaphile
We've said how. Light > Eye > Decoding > Brain (I left out magic). The cells do as instructed.

Are you asking what language the brain uses to translate, I don't think we have cracked that yet but we will.

So the brain decodes light waves into light we see? Okay so you're saying that there's an algorithmic approach towards decoding the waves into an output? Okay..that still doesn't explain what the output is. I want you to explain through this 'code' how the brain creates perception.

And btw you are talking magic as well, because according to your theory, the brain evolved this code which started assigning variables to physical sensations. Where did the variables come from? The brain made it up? But our universe doesn't have such entities? Well that's the power of the brain? Lol.

In computer terms red on the computer screen is a wavelength that is emitted by the computer which our brains translate as red. The computer does not create red. It conveys the information of a wavelength which we translate as red.
 

MD

qualiaphile
We will be able to create strong AI without the utilization of fairy dust.

If I'm right then yes. If I'm wrong and there's some biological code then no, strong AI is impossible. Unfortunately you don't realize that.
 
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