Did Jesus preach the "bad news" or the "good news"?

[Caladan]

Isn't there a whole lot more to gain than to lose by seriously taking up the cross of Jesus and following him? Are people's lives really so great that they couldn't afford to take a leap of faith? At the very least, tell me why there's such a concerted effort to oppose this message.

Some of these verses are fine and all. But what do you really expect people to do when you say 'taking up the cross of Jesus and following him'?
Also, I have to ask. Is it unfathomable that some people consider their life to be good? and more importantly: that they consider it vital for them to be the sole decision makers in their lives?
In addition, what does it mean to oppose this message?

 

[Caladan]

Let's also no forget that many people are not even culturally Christian. So they are not opposing anything, they are simply going about their business.

 

[roberto]

??? Have you been reading Lewis Carol?

Spoiler: Jabberwocky

JABBERWOCKY
Lewis Carroll
(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Shiite , I donno how you connected those dots.

 

[roberto]

...... (people who have done nothing to warrant such a severe penalty).

Have you never picked up sticks on [Saturday] Sabbath ? :yes:

 

[roberto]

.... what do you really expect people to do when you say 'taking up the cross of Jesus and following him'?

I'd ask : whereto ? :sarcastic

 

[Caladan]

I'd ask : whereto ? :sarcastic

Sorry. Doesn't make any sense. There are no answers from voices above in my life.

 

[roberto]

Sorry. Doesn't make any sense. There are no answers from voices above in my life.

My wife calls me an idiot as well. :sarcastic

 

[Caladan]

My wife calls me an idiot as well. :sarcastic

Fortunately my wife never called me any such thing. But I was confident someone would eventually relate to my signature :yes:

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Not at all.

For me, I think that the message is that no matter how bad things are now, we should be content knowing that God will make everything right. I think that this can kill empathy: after all, what reason could there possibly be to help somebody if the most capable entity in the universe has already said that he'd take care of it?

I think a good example of how harmful this can be is Mother Teresa: out of (austensibly) a desire to help the poor, she created a hospital where very few people actually got treated for their ailments - it was just a cleaner place to die. And it wasn't for lack of resources, either; she got massive donations, but she'd divert them to building her network of convents. And her patients wouldn't even receive normal painkillers, because of her misguided (but entirely Biblical) ideas that the suffering of the poor would gain them reward in Heaven.

In a very real sense, when the Gospel is put into action, people are harmed. If this was outweighed by some greater benefit, then I could understand, but any such benefit relies on the Gospels being based in truth... but I've never seen any reason to think they are.

Look at it this way: say you're at the scene of an emergency and someone shouts "don't worry! Help is on the way - an ambulance will be here soon!" If help is actually coming, great. But if it's not, and if the ambulance isn't coming but people will rely on the idea that it is, then the person who said it was coming has perpetrated a horrible, harmful act. If he knew that what he said was false - or even if he didn't know this but didn't have good reason to believe that what he said was true - then he's done something shameful and, IMO, evil.

And on a side note, I sometimes listen to the Christian radio station near here. They have a commercial that always leaves me scratching my head: it's for a "Christian financial planner" who says that he bases his approach on "Biblical principles." Whenever I hear his ad, my mind leaps to that passage quoted in the OP and I wonder how he could reconcile a profession where worrying about the future is the whole raison d'etre with a teaching that says, basically "don't worry about the future at all." Those two things seem fundamentally opposed to me.

In the post before this you mentioned things you feel you need to cling to. What I gather from this post is that thing you're afraid of losing is empathy. Would you agree that Jesus had quite a bit of empathy? You're point about the ambulance makes it sound like you're hesitant to take a step of faith because you don't know of God is going to catch you. I've been a Christian almost 9 years and I still get scared of that every time I take a step of faith, despite all the times he has caught me in the past. I just try to remember that God wants trust and that trust requires us to lose a little control of our lives sometimes

Hebrews 11 1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 6.And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Have you never picked up sticks on [Saturday] Sabbath ? :yes:

For me it is Saturday right now... i have just gone outside and looked for a stick... i couldn't find one in the dark though, so I coiled the hose which was lying about. Hopefully this work does not mean I should be killed; or whipped or some other inordinate punishment... If there is a creator I am grateful to that creator and express that gratitude... I do not need to waste one seventh of all the days that I am lucky enough to live to express that gratitude, especially not when it means that some small corner of creation itself might become that slightly more disordered while I do nothing for the sake of it.

 

[roberto]

Fortunately my wife never called me any such thing. But I was confident someone would eventually relate to my signature :yes:

Oh, you surely have a deeper understanding of life !

I am sure you are well versed in the Bible.

Are you perhaps a psycologist ?

 

[Caladan]

Oh, you surely have a deeper understanding of life !

I am sure you are well versed in the Bible.

Are you perhaps a psycologist ?

Almost. I'm an archaeologist: a psychologist of ancient dead people.

 

[roberto]

For me it is Saturday right now... i have just gone outside and looked for a stick... i couldn't find one in the dark though, so I coiled the hose which was lying about. Hopefully this work does not mean I should be killed; or whipped or some other inordinate punishment... If there is a creator I am grateful to that creator and express that gratitude... I do not need to waste one seventh of all the days that I am lucky enough to live to express that gratitude, especially not when it means that some small corner of creation itself might become that slightly more disordered while I do nothing for the sake of it.

You should realy search Google for the Jewish meaning of "work" on the Sabbath.

 

[roberto]

Almost. I'm an archaeologist: a psychologist of ancient dead people.

I believe they realy found some nice corpses/mummies in Egipt desert.

http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/technology/gold-coated-mummies-found-in-egyptian-desert-1.228935

Any guess as to their religion?

 

[Caladan]

I believe they realy found some nice corpses/mummies in Egipt desert.

Any guess as to their religion?

Start a thread about it, if you have a genuine interest in Egyptology. I'm sure some of us would jump in to help you. Just a word of advice, most of us will need a little bit more information than 'mummies found in Egypt'.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In the post before this you mentioned things you feel you need to cling to. What I gather from this post is that thing you're afraid of losing is empathy. Would you agree that Jesus jhad quite a bit of empathy?

That's a very interesting question.

I think that depends on whether Jesus is God or not. If he was God, then no, I don't think he showed all that much empathy. I mean, healing the blind is fine in and of itself, but if God is ultimately responsible for the blind person's blindness in the first place, then I see it more as deciding to torment a person temporarily instead of permanently.

I think it also depends on your take on Jesus' message. I think his sermons in the Gospels focused quite a bit on deeds, but modern Christianity often suggests that Jesus is all about faith, not deeds... so I think it depends whether we're talking about the straight Jesus of the Gospels, or Jesus as interpreted by Paul.

But even in the best case, I think his empathy was rather... variable.

You're point about the ambulance makes it sound like you're hesitant to take a step of faith because you don't know of God is going to catch you.

I think you missed my point: I'm trying to say that it's immoral to spread a message of promise that people will rely on unless the person spreading it has good reason to believe that it's true.

I get frustrated sometimes in these religious debates because of a bizarre take on the burden of proof that I often see from theists. I mean, if a person had told you that an ambulance was coming and you relied on it, would it satisfy you if the person told you later "well, I don't really have any good reason to believe that an ambulance is coming, but you can't prove that one isn't coming"?

I've been a Christian almost 9 years and I still get scared of that every time I take a step of faith, despite all the times he has caught me in the past. I just try to remember that God wants trust and that trust requires us to lose a little control of our lives sometimes

Hebrews 11 1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 6.And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him

If you're saying that part of Christianity's message is that it's good to accept claims without evidence, then I think that's harmful enough to reject it just because of that.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

You should realy search Google for the Jewish meaning of "work" on the Sabbath.

Some take it far more seriously than others, such as turning on a light switch - I know that does not represent the entirety of the Jewish community (in which there are many different philosophical and theological differences), I was merely using that as a lens by which to examine the role of the sabbath and your reference to picking up a stick

 

[roberto]

....I was merely using that as a lens by which to examine the role of the sabbath and your reference to picking up a stick

Not my reference but the Torah reference :
Num 15:32 While the people of Isra'el were in the desert, they found a man gathering wood on Shabbat.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

And her patients wouldn't even receive normal painkillers, because of her misguided (but entirely Biblical) ideas that the suffering of the poor would gain them reward in Heaven.

.

It's funny but In the Bible I can't remember even one instance of Jesus allowing someone to suffer because he thought it would gain them a reward in Heaven.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's funny but, In the Bible, I can't remember even one instance of Jesus allowing someone to suffer because he thought it would gain them a reward in Heaven.

He didn't do it himself, but he explained that this is how it works:

Luke 6:20-26

20 And turning His gaze toward His disciples, He began to say, “ Blessed are [j]you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. 21 Blessed are [k]you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. 22 Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. 23 Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to [l]treat the prophets. 24 But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full. 25 Woe to you who [m]are well-fed now, for you shall be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to [n]treat the false prophets in the same way.

IOW, if a person is poor, hungry, and miserable now, then he will have reward in Heaven. If he is rich, well-fed, and happy now, then he will be made to suffer.

... so if you see a poor, hungry, weeping person, you can do one of two things:

- nothing, thereby ensuring them the great reward in Heaven that Jesus described, or

- you can enrich, feed and comfort them, which might make them happy now, but will be denying them a much greater benefit in the process.

If you truly care about the other person and you truly believe Jesus' words, then the compassionate thing is to let the person suffer, trusting that God will reward them for it, and that he will, in due course, provide that person with comfort far beyond what you could ever hope to give yourself.

The alternative is to give him short-term, imperfect comfort and in the process deny him that overwhelming future benefit.

Jesus explained that in the long run, poor, hungry, miserable people are actually going to be much better off than rich, well-fed, happy people. If this is really the case, then why on Earth would you ever want to take poverty, hunger or misery away from a person? These things are the person's "Golden Ticket"!

... if you believe Jesus, that is.