Is the US founded on "Christian values" ?

[Sunstone]

I am perfectly familiar in the differences between the Ideals of the Enlightenment and the beliefs of Christianity. As a person who has submerged himself in the thought process of a non-european paradigm It is exceedingly clear to me that the Enlightenment piggy backed on the reformation and what came before it. It was a by-product of Christian Culture. It might have not been a paradigm they liked but it was a natural evolution of their history.

Yes, they read the Greeks & Romans but so did medieval christians. It was the Christians who put the Greek and Roman thinkers in such high regard. Just read Dantas comments about the virtuous pagan Virgel or the apotheosis of the Greeks by the Scholasticism of the Medieval Universities. Even the Enlightenment thinkers love of all things Greek and Roman it turns out came from the Christians. Greeks they understood it through eyes of a Christian. Also the Enlightenment period was the manifestation of the schism that was Protestant in its very nature. I would say there is no Enlightenment without Luther. The proof of this is that The enlightenment took firmest roots in the lands most effected by him and his protestant brothers. This is a main stream historical view.

I would say the Enlightenment could have only taken place in a Christian Protestant culture. This is why I think your above post is wrong.

Well just have to agree to disagree on this since I cannot accept your reasoning.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I would say the Enlightenment could have only taken place in a Christian Protestant culture. This is why I think your above post is wrong.

Are you not familiar with Voltaire? Charles III of Spain? The French Revolution? Descartes?

Hardly products of Protestant culture.

 

[gnomon]

It wasn't just the Constitution OR the Declaration of Independence which formed the foundation of the country that became the United States, as my earlier, detailed, well sourced posts rather clearly show.

None of your sources have anything to do with the foundation of the United States. They have much to do with the religious views of some early colonists and when placed against the historical record of religious separation among the colonists seek to undermine any concept that the U.S. was founded upon any so called Christian values.

edit: That's not to say that specific colonies were not founded on specific religious principles.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I find it fascinating that so many Americans believe that The USA started with a clean sheet after the war of independence.

There were very many entrenched religious and colonial views that joined the melting pot.
That is why so many laws are state dependent today.

Very little at State/colony level changed, and then only slowly.

The United States individually agreed to differ....
And wrote the constitution around that fact.
Even today there is a distinct unease between State and federal government.

America is only governable because no one holds power to do anything, except in an emergency.
Terms of office are about the shortest in the world, and are in effect even shorter because of the length of the election process. A president has an effective three years to do anything if he is lucky

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Well just have to agree to disagree on this since I find your reasoning muddy and confused.

I would say that the greatest cause of change was the defeat of the Moors in Spain. and the sudden explosion of Islamic knowledge of science by experiment and new philosophy, with the release of books from their great libraries. Up to that time the stultifying effects of Greek Philosophy and Christian belief rained supreme. From that moment Progress in every field flourished. Leading to the enlightenment, the industrial revolution and modern scientific method.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The United States was founded on the principle that white men who owned land where in charge. There where many indentured servants, slaves and not many womens rights and people fantasize about secular religionists. One look at the bill of rights tells the story. The Federalist papers where written in hind sight. You where not required to be religious and would not take orders from the Roman Church, but most everyone during that time did believe in a God with few exceptions.

Even to this day, Congress starts each session with a prayer. When we swear in the President, a prayer is said. Every President has uttered the words, "So help me God".

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Well just have to agree to disagree on this since I cannot accept your reasoning.

Spice of life as they say.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Are you not familiar with Voltaire? Charles III of Spain? The French Revolution? Descartes?

Hardly products of Protestant culture.

Queston: How could Voltaire be Voltaire without Christianity to rebel against ?

Descartes claimed to be a devout Roman Catholic, he said one of the purposes of the Meditations was to defend the Christian faith. In fact Queen Christina of Sweden converted to Roman Catholicism because of the faith of Descartes. He was not Protestant but it is certen that the reformation had a big impact on the RC church. There would be no room to breath for the age of Enlightenment, if there was no reformation.

Why did the Jacobins try to de-christianize France if Christianity was not an important part of the mix. Would you not say that the injustice of the State and the Church was not the cause of this. You don't think that Calvin and Zwingly was an important part of these influences ? What about the Huguenots in France. Did they not contributed to freedom and democracy in Europe. There Arguments for civil disobedience and rebellion against tyranny influenced the French revolution.

I am Ignorant of Charles III of Spain so I will not comment.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Queston: How could Voltaire be Voltaire without Christianity to rebel against ?

Descartes claimed to be a devout Roman Catholic, he said one of the purposes of the Meditations was to defend the Christian faith. In fact Queen Christina of Sweden converted to Roman Catholicism because of the faith of Descartes. He was not Protestant but it is certen that the reformation had a big impact on the RC church. There would be no room to breath for the age of Enlightenment, if there was no reformation.

Why did the Jacobins try to de-christianize France if Christianity was not an important part of the mix. Would you not say that the injustice of the State and the Church was not the cause of this. You don't think that Calvin and Zwingly was an important part of these influences ? What about the Huguenots in France. Did they not contributed to freedom and democracy in Europe. There Arguments for civil disobedience and rebellion against tyranny influenced the French revolution.

I am Ignorant of Charles III of Spain so I will not comment.

Hardly the product of Christian Protestant culture.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I would say that the greatest cause of change was the defeat of the Moors in Spain. and the sudden explosion of Islamic knowledge of science by experiment and new philosophy, with the release of books from their great libraries. Up to that time the stultifying effects of Greek Philosophy and Christian belief rained supreme. From that moment Progress in every field flourished. Leading to the enlightenment, the industrial revolution and modern scientific method.

Yes true, but why did the information from the moors lead up to the West's experience of the age of enlightenment and the muslim cultures this information came out of did not have the same opening of ideas and culture?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Hardly the product of Christian Protestant culture.

Without the reformation the seeds of the enlightenment would not bring fruit do to the complete control of the catholic church. Again I cant see why you all are having such a problem with this concept. I must be communicating very poorly. Ideas don't come from a vacuum. They are products of the milieu of the time and place they come from. Thats all I am saying. Christian Protestant culture was a huge part of the milieu. Out of that milieu came the ideals of the Enlightnenment would not exist.

 

[Kathryn]

None of your sources have anything to do with the foundation of the United States. They have much to do with the religious views of some early colonists and when placed against the historical record of religious separation among the colonists seek to undermine any concept that the U.S. was founded upon any so called Christian values.

edit: That's not to say that specific colonies were not founded on specific religious principles.

The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution did not suddenly spring into being between 1776 and 1787. Every document that I presented (and there were many of them - and my list was not at all all inclusive - I have a lot more where that came from) was yet another building block upon which the United States was built.

 

[Kathryn]

The United States was founded on the principle that white men who owned land where in charge. There where many indentured servants, slaves and not many womens rights and people fantasize about secular religionists. One look at the bill of rights tells the story. The Federalist papers where written in hind sight. You where not required to be religious and would not take orders from the Roman Church, but most everyone during that time did believe in a God with few exceptions.

Even to this day, Congress starts each session with a prayer. When we swear in the President, a prayer is said. Every President has uttered the words, "So help me God".

It amazes me when I read some of these posts. I think to myself, "My gosh, has this person actually been to Washington DC and toured the historical sites?" One thing that strikes me every time I visit DC is that the Christian faith is evident in so MANY of the historical monuments. I mean, right there in plain sight - SHAMELESSLY evident in fact.

 

[Desert Snake]

It amazes me when I read some of these posts. I think to myself, "My gosh, has this person actually been to Washington DC and toured the historical sites?" One thing that strikes me every time I visit DC is that the Christian faith is evident in so MANY of the historical monuments. I mean, right there in plain sight - SHAMELESSLY evident in fact.

This is true, I guess, but with "Freedom of Religion" being a core American principle I don't like to bring everything back to Christianity, philosophically speaking. The personal freedoms granted in the Constitution were far ahead of other governmental decrees in Europe etc., those governments still being under church influence.

 

[Kathryn]

This is true, I guess, but with "Freedom of Religion" being a core American principle I don't like to bring everything back to Christianity, philosophically speaking. The personal freedoms granted in the Constitution were far ahead of other governmental decrees in Europe etc., those governments still being under church influence.

I'm not trying to "bring everything back to Christianity." I'm just objectively discussing the formation and history of our country. And yes, I place great value and appreciation myself for the freedoms that our Founding Fathers included in our Constitution - including states' rights.

 

[Me Myself]

Not one part of constitution or other that you can say is more "christian" than say, Zoroastroist or jew prsented so far.

(Unless I missed something)

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

It amazes me when I read some of these posts. I think to myself, "My gosh, has this person actually been to Washington DC and toured the historical sites?" One thing that strikes me every time I visit DC is that the Christian faith is evident in so MANY of the historical monuments. I mean, right there in plain sight - SHAMELESSLY evident in fact.

You are somewhat correct. Also many of the founding fathers tried to moderate the influence of Christianity on our Federal and local governments.

 

[Kathryn]

Not one part of constitution or other that you can say is more "christian" than say, Zoroastroist or jew prsented so far.

(Unless I missed something)

Our country was not founded on the Constitution alone - but now I'm repeating myself.

 

[Me Myself]

Our country was not founded on the Constitution alone - but now I'm repeating myself.

Any other text then. (that directly influences contry´s laws or something the like)

 

[Kathryn]

Any other text then. (that directly influences contry´s laws or something the like)

My gosh, I just posted a brazillion of them, many of them state constitutions dating from the 1700s.

Posts 133 and 135.