Is the US founded on "Christian values" ?

[gnomon]

Europe, also having its laws modeled on Christianity, criminalized sodomy as well, though the United States was unique in specifically referencing Christianity in its anti-sodomy laws.

My point isn't that the country was founded solely to allow people to continue to persecute sodomites. Rather I was referring to statements like "As far as values called out as Christian it's hard to pinpoint some that are not found among multiple cultures and that did not exist prior to the development of Christianity itself." US law pretty universally was predicated upon Christian values; it's just that these took place at the state/local level rather than the Federal. While many would argue (with merit, I think) that the American Revolution and drafting of the Constitution cannot be properly understood outside of a Christian context, I do agree with you that on a national level we were more primarily founded upon the idea of certain economic/social liberties and attempting to move away from the state religion of Europe. Even given that, the pervasive presence of Christianity in US law seems to indicate rather strongly that Christian values were pivotal and foundational for the country.

In short, Christianity may not have been the core or sole principle upon which the US was founded, but explicitly-Christian values were certainly a driving force in the formation of our society and laws.

Maybe it would be most accurate to say that we were not founded upon Christian values, but when the country was founded Christianity was deeply intertwined into all forms of politics, philosophy, and social life and thus the early US could still accurately be described as a Christian nation?

The U.S. legal system has roots in the common law. Not Paul's letters. The system of government the U.S. possesses owes more to classical Greek politics, pre-Christian Roman Senate and the Iriqouis Confederation than the Apostles or the miracles of Jesus. English common law was reactionary against the Church at it's time from Henry II on. The English sought to preserve traditional customs over the newer Church customs in terms of inheritance.

I have a quote of my own:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not. Such a Government will be best supported by protecting every Citizen in the enjoyment of his Religion with the same equal hand which protects his person and his property; by neither invading the equal rights of any Sect, nor suffering any Sect to invade those of another. [/FONT][/FONT]

James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religion.

Christians do not get to claim the above sentiment as belonging to them.

If people wish to state that the U.S. is founded on Christian values than they need to state specific Christian values and how they are formative of the foundation of this nation.

If someone wants to start somewhere they can try Max Weber.

 

[Kathryn]

Ironically, this really doesn´t evidence anything.

I am not asking if it was inspired in christianity, so much if it actually reflects christian values in contrast of the values of other religions.

for example, if you didn´t know the exclamations they put and you just read the laws they made and the constitution, could you discard that maybe they were hinduist, buddists, jews or some other virtuous form of paganism?

What I mean is that it seems to be founded on values that are present in almost any "humanitarian" moral system. The values are not at all exclusive to christianity, not even by the longest shot.

Good question.

I think it's fairly obvious that the Founding Fathers of our nation based their system of law on Christian principles. Whether these principles are also present in part or in whole in other religions probably didn't matter that much to those men who founded the government of the United States. They wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution based on their Judeo Christian beliefs and values, generally speaking.

 

[Revoltingest]

Good question.
I think it's fairly obvious that the Founding Fathers of our nation based their system of law on Christian principles. Whether these principles are also present in part or in whole in other religions probably didn't matter that much to those men who founded the government of the United States. They wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution based on their Judeo Christian beliefs and values, generally speaking.

No way. The founders were libertarian. (I should know....I was there.)
Libertarians, deists & Xians have some values in common.

 

[Me Myself]

Good question.

I think it's fairly obvious that the Founding Fathers of our nation based their system of law on Christian principles. Whether these principles are also present in part or in whole in other religions probably didn't matter that much to those men who founded the government of the United States. They wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution based on their Judeo Christian beliefs and values, generally speaking.

I disagree. I believe they based themselves on their human compassion and they called it "christian" merely by association.

What I mean is that their prime motor was clearly compassion, not religion in itself. Now you can say compassion is a prime motor in christianity, but it also is in buddhism for example. So if you really look at it the nation seems to be founded on humanitarian values, set by both christians and non-christian theists that believed in morality and human´s right to happiness.

So, what can you find in the founding notions of the state that is there only because of christianity? is there anything recognizable in there for which you would get that those who made the rules were christians and not any other kind of religion?

Because if there is not, I think it doesn´t make much sense to say it was founded on christian values. At least not in the context that it is always used. I am sure you understand what I mean.

 

[Kathryn]

No way. The founders were libertarian. (I should know....I was there.)
Libertarians, deists & Xians have some values in common.

True dat. As a fellow libertarian, I was there too - of course.

That being said, there were more theists and Christians among the Founding Fathers than reprobates. Just sayin'.

 

[Revoltingest]

True dat. As a fellow libertarian, I was there too - of course.
That being said, there were more theists and Christians among the Founding Fathers than reprobates. Just sayin'.

I never counted.
They just looked religiously diverse.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think this question is difficult to answer because we have to define what specifically are Christian values. And also if the question is asked in order to further define how Christian values are assumed to be exclusive and different in the same way that the U.S. is assumed to be exclusive and different.

It's difficult to say, really.

 

[Me Myself]

Well, I lok it a lot in the context in which "christian values" is used when in this subject. It is generaly used to prohibit things that people think the christian today think is wrong.

I say that even if they were all christian, they clearly ignored more than one christian "value", because US was actually supposed to be more libertarian (that´s ghow you call it I think ? political terms do confuse me :cover: ) than actually religious.

People where allowed to be atheists and still be in the country, not expelled. That is actually inacceptable according to most Christian doctrine.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

People where allowed to be atheists and still be in the country, not expelled. That is actually inacceptable according to most Christian doctrine.

Exactly what are you basing this on?

 

[tumbleweed41]

True dat. As a fellow libertarian, I was there too - of course.

That being said, there were more theists and Christians among the Founding Fathers than reprobates. Just sayin'.

Reprobates?

 

[HerDotness]

I find it curious that Kathryn quotes so many statements from public pronouncements made by the FF's. These men were politicians and diplomats after all; they were hardly going to express their actual feelings about the role of Christianity in a venue which they knew was likely to be quoted both in their own time and in the future.

Jefferson in particular disavowed all of the supernatural aspects of the NT account of Jesus's life and works which is why he compiled his The Life and Morals of Jesus Christ, now commonly known as The Jefferson Bible.

Naturally, these men would express admiration for Christian beliefs and principles. It would have been political and social suicide not to have done so.

The private correspondence between Jefferson and John Adams in the two men's latter years tells a far different tale. Both said that organized religion was necessary to provide moral guidance for the uneducated masses but that educated and well-read gentlemen like themselves needed no such thing. They believed men of their station were capable of highly rational thought and thus able to regulate their own morality with no need for a list of "shalt not's."

 

[Kathryn]

I find it curious that Kathryn quotes so many statements from public pronouncements made by the FF's. These men were politicians and diplomats after all; they were hardly going to express their actual feelings about the role of Christianity in a venue which they knew was likely to be quoted both in their own time and in the future.

Jefferson in particular disavowed all of the supernatural aspects of the NT account of Jesus's life and works which is why he compiled his The Life and Morals of Jesus Christ, now commonly known as The Jefferson Bible.

Naturally, these men would express admiration for Christian beliefs and principles. It would have been political and social suicide not to have done so.

The private correspondence between Jefferson and John Adams in the two men's latter years tells a far different tale. Both said that organized religion was necessary to provide moral guidance for the uneducated masses but that educated and well-read gentlemen like themselves needed no such thing. They believed men of their station were capable of highly rational thought and thus able to regulate their own morality with no need for a list of "shalt not's."

I provided my sources (and can provide more if you like), as well as direct quotes from Founding Fathers. Please provide a source for your assertions.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The United States of America, like the French Revolution was a product of the Enlightenment Age, not Christian theology.

 

[Kathryn]

The United States of America, like the French Revolution was a product of the Enlightenment Age, not Christian theology.

What do you base your opinion on?

 

[Me Myself]

I provided my sources (and can provide more if you like), as well as direct quotes from Founding Fathers. Please provide a source for your assertions.

I am also highly interested for links to the sources he mentioned.

 

[Revoltingest]

The United States of America, like the French Revolution was a product of the Enlightenment Age, not Christian theology.

Don't forget the Gorn influence.

 

[tumbleweed41]

What do you base your opinion on?

The cultural writings leading up to the Revolution.

Read John Locke, James Madison, Thomas Paine, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson.

One Enlightenment ideal is religious tolerance. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and George Washington all fought for and eventually attained religious freedom for minority denominations.

Is religious tolerance a Christian Value? Can you point to one instance for endorsement of religious tolerance in the Bible?

Is a Representative Republic a Christian Value? Where did Jesus teach this?

The US Senate was modeled after the Enlightenment influenced House of Lords.
John Adams said "the English Constitution is, in theory, both for the adjustment of the balance and the prevention of its vibrations, the most stupendous fabric of human invention." John Dickinson said the Senate should "consist of the most distinguished characters, distinguished for their rank in life and their weight of property, and bearing as strong a likeness to the British House of Lords as possible."

Hardly a Christian Value. Nowhere in the Bible is the ideal of property owning "distinguished" men chosen for their inheritable wealth endorsed as lawmakers.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Don't forget the Gorn influence.

Shhhhh...it's a secret....

 

[Me Myself]

To separate those who have different religious beliefs is a completely christian value(and that is even NT!). Let´s not bring Old testament here though... cause it would get far messier...

 

[tumbleweed41]

Benjamen Franklin, patriot...
In his Autobiography wrote "...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

John Adams, second President of the US....
Signed the Treaty of Tripoli, which states in Article 11 "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion"
In a letter to Charles Cushing wrote, "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.'"

Thomas Jefferson, third president of the US...
In a letter to the Danbury Baptists states, "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
In the 'Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom wrote,"Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
And in the Jefferson Bible wrote,"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

James Madison, fourth President of the US.....
In Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessment said,
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

Previously posted here.