I'd Like to Ask a Question or A Few Questions

[waitasec]

They don't exist for me.

but do these problems exist as one places these labels...

consider your circle diagram...the smallest one is the one by which we experience...however you and i don't understand everything that makes that smaller circle..

 

[Debater Slayer]

I don't think you are a fundamentalist, literalist, or any other labels you can think of. I also don't like classifying people as 'X' just because they belong to a certain group, be it Christian/theist/non-theist/whatever.

 

[Me Myself]

When I lived in Japan, Buddhist and Shinto religious symbolism, holidays, etc were everywhere. It didn't bother me a bit.

The majority of the Japanese are either Buddhist, Shinto, or a mixture of both. It's just the reality. So what?

How many shinto buddhists told you you were going to be tortured in hell forver if you don´t accept Buddha Shinto as your Lord and savior ?

 

[ChristineES]

Christine, I think for me I see Christianity so inundated in our culture, where Jesus, church nights on Wednesdays, Sunday brunches, Bibles in hotel rooms, political candidates who quote scripture, billboard after billboard after billboard on the road, dozens of Christian channels on cable/satellite television....you get the picture, right?

Personally, it gets annoying very quickly.

But let me be clear, this isn't a pity party, but acknowledging that I can sometimes lose my cool and generalize pretty easily. I make a concerted effort to refrain, and many times I succeed. Sometimes though I do roll my eyes when I'm told I need to accept Jesus as my lord and savior....again....and see all the advertising and propaganda and the public prayers, my imperfect eyes do admittedly see Christians as homogenous from time to time as a force to be reckoned with and I'll put my dukes up.

Sorry, y'all. Can I make it up to you with some chocolate chip cookies?

At least you're honest. And since you've always been very kind to me in the past on the RF, I can't hold that against you at all.

 

[Kathryn]

but do these problems exist as one places these labels...

consider your circle diagram...the smallest one is the one by which we experience...however you and i don't understand everything that makes that smaller circle..

It's not just what we experience. It's also what we KNOW and understand.

What is your point?

 

[Kathryn]

How many shinto buddhists told you you were going to be tortured in hell forver if you don´t accept Buddha Shinto as your Lord and savior ?

I have no idea - I don't understand the Japanese language and I also can't read it.

Can you?

 

[Me Myself]

I have no idea - I don't understand the Japanese language and I also can't read it.

Can you?

do you understand why I asked you? (i don´t understand the language btw)

 

[Kathryn]

do you understand why I asked you? (i don´t understand the language btw)

Yes, of course.

My point is that when I am in a country with a predominant religion, I'm not put off by the presence or expressed beliefs of that particular religion. That is to say, I am not personally offended.

If a Shinto believer had a bumper sticker (that I could read) that said Christians go to hell, honestly it wouldn't bother me in the least. I don't have to prove anything to that person and I frankly don't care what they think my eternal destination is.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes, of course.

My point is that when I am in a country with a predominant religion, I'm not put off by the presence or expressed beliefs of that particular religion. That is to say, I am not personally offended.

If a Shinto believer had a bumper sticker (that I could read) that said Christians go to hell, honestly it wouldn't bother me in the least. I don't have to prove anything to that person and I frankly don't care what they think my eternal destination is.

Well, that is honestly remarkable of you.

Generaly, when we feel we are in a hostile enviroment one becomes at leasty unconsciously tense by it, or hostile against it.

If you wouldn´t have felt that way in your years not even i the sligthest way even if they were as hardpress as mainstream christianism is to non-christians when it has the power, then genuine kudos to you.

You are ahead of me in the Nirvana path

 

[Kathryn]

Well, that is honestly remarkable of you.

Generaly, when we feel we are in a hostile enviroment one becomes at leasty unconsciously tense by it, or hostile against it.

If you wouldn´t have felt that way in your 2 years not even i the sligthest way even if they were as hardpress as mainstream christianism is to non-christians when it has the power, then genuine kudos to you.

You are ahead of me in the Nirvana path

Well, I don't know about being ahead of anyone but I am truly not offended by the religious beliefs of other people, or the expression of those beliefs, even when that expression includes their belief that I am headed straight for hell. Like I said, I don't really care what they think about my spiritual beliefs. Truly.

Now - outright rudeness irritates me. And I'll give you an example of a religious slight that offended me as well. My daughter had a necklace that was a silver crucifix (which I had given her as a gift). She wore it to a non denominational church, to a youth meeting. The director actually TOOK the necklace from her, saying that the teens were not allowed to wear that "incorrect cross." THAT offended me. Well, it ticked me off - I am not sure that "offended is the right word. I went right up to that church, got the necklace back, and told the youth director that if my daughter chose to wear it, and I allowed her to wear it, then he had better not take it from her again. Now - he could tell her that she wasn't allowed to come to the meetings wearing that cross, or he could make her leave but he had no right to demand that she turn the necklace over.

He didn't say anything else to her about it.

 

[Caladan]

I am hoping that no one is offended or irritated with my question. It used to be said all the time "I don't hate Christians, I just hate their faith". But lately, not with everyone but with a few people I am wondering this "Do you dislike only the Christian faith or do you also dislike Christians as well?" As I said, there are plenty of people who just don't like the Christian faith, but lately I get the feeling that there may be a few who dislike, even hate, Christians, as well. Not only that, think that all Christians are alike- all fundamentalist, all take the Bible 100% literal, etc.

I hope I am wrong about it, really. There are a lot of good things about the Christian faith. There are a lot of Good people who follow the Christian faith. I am not going to say that just because someone is a Christian means that they are good people. I wouldn't say that anymore than I would say that atheists are bad just because they are atheists. I dislike generalizations and stereotypes.

If you are talking about the internet, its pretty much a territory thing. I have seen people behaving terribly in a predominantly on line Christian environment, unfortunately now that there is an atheist majority people cant seem to rise above the same mob mentelity. its one of the reasons I stopped identifying myself as an atheist and changed the religious label to secular Judaism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, of course.

My point is that when I am in a country with a predominant religion, I'm not put off by the presence or expressed beliefs of that particular religion. That is to say, I am not personally offended.

If a Shinto believer had a bumper sticker (that I could read) that said Christians go to hell, honestly it wouldn't bother me in the least. I don't have to prove anything to that person and I frankly don't care what they think my eternal destination is.

I may be wrong, but I think it's more that you don't care when you don't have a sense of "ownership" of the culture.

I've heard you throw the phrase "don't mess with Texas" around here more than once. In many cases, Christianity - and even moderate Christianity - "messes with" the places that non-Christians feel a sense of ownership in.

For instance, here in Ontario (as well as other provinces in Canada), we have taxpayer-funded Catholic schools. I see this as contrary to the idea of secularism and equality before the law, two things I place great value in myself. I also have a MAJOR problem with my tax dollars going toward an educational system that teaches children things like "homosexuals are disordered".

Now... the demand for these schools doesn't primarily come from hardcore "fundamentalist" Catholics. Most of the kids in these schools are put there by parents who are only nominally Catholic themselves, don't go to mass that often, and in many cases individually voice their support for things like availability of contraception and same-sex marriage. However, their conduct enables these objectionable things to keep going - if every moderate Catholic moved their kids from Catholic schools to public schools, most Catholic schools wouldn't have the enrollment to sustain themselves.

So... to tie this all back to the OP: that's an example of why I still have an issue with even moderate "progressive" Christians. They may say things in favour of things I think are positive, but they often undermine what they say with what they do by supporting the institutions they do, and as a result enable everything from the merely negative to the downright evil.

You know how you wouldn't like it for people to "mess with Texas"? Religion - even moderate religion - messes with the place that I call home and the things I care about.

 

[Kathryn]

I may be wrong, but I think it's more that you don't care when you don't have a sense of "ownership" of the culture.

Not really. I have the sense to know when I am in the midst of a predominate group.

Speaking of Texas, we are inundated with Hispanics, both legal and illegal. Their birth rate outpaces the "native" birthrate so within a few years there will be a LOT more of them. Every day there is more Hispanic culture around me - music, language, stores, people, food, festivals, religious icons, you name it.

As a white non hispanic person, I am already a minority here in Texas, in the sense that there are more people of other "races" than there are "white, non hispanic" people in Texas.

If it starts to bother me enough, I'll move I guess, but I don't see that happening, because frankly it doesn't bother me.

I've heard you throw the phrase "don't mess with Texas" around here more than once.

Yes, and you always make a big deal out of it, even when I clarify (though I usually shouldn't have to) that I am saying it TONGUE IN CHEEK. It's a phrase that I find humorous.

In many cases, Christianity - and even moderate Christianity - "messes with" the places that non-Christians feel a sense of ownership in.

If other people's rights are being violated, that's wrong. Otherwise, too bad. I mean, I wish everyone would get along but that's never been the case and I don't see human nature allowing for that scenario.

For instance, here in Ontario (as well as other provinces in Canada), we have taxpayer-funded Catholic schools. I see this as contrary to the idea of secularism and equality before the law, two things I place great value in myself. I also have a MAJOR problem with my tax dollars going toward an educational system that teaches children things like "homosexuals are disordered".

Right, and I would have a problem with that as well. Glad we don't have that situation to deal with here.

So... to tie this all back to the OP: that's an example of why I still have an issue with even moderate "progressive" Christians. They may say things in favour of things I think are positive, but they often undermine what they say with what they do by supporting the institutions they do, and as a result enable everything from the merely negative to the downright evil.

Once again, I think that's basic human nature, regardless of one's religious affiliation or lack thereof. I often feel the very same way about people who differ from me on political or religious or moral issues. So what?

You know how you wouldn't like it for people to "mess with Texas"? Religion - even moderate religion - messes with the place that I call home and the things I care about.

See, there you go again - wow, that saying really sits rough with you, doesn't it? Please don't take it so seriously.

And by the way, people "mess with Texas" every day. As long as they aren't infringing on my rights, I can be irritated if I choose but otherwise, I have to just suck it up.

 

[9Westy9]

I suppose the major question is do a few people generalize all Christians as fundamentalist bigots?

Yes. Usually when someone says Christian the first thing that pops into my head is a fundamentalist. I've learnt not to judge people based on stereotypes though

 

[MysticSang'ha]

At least you're honest. And since you've always been very kind to me in the past on the RF, I can't hold that against you at all.

I don't share my annoyances much because all it does in the end is either cause grief in others or in myself. I tend to keep it to myself unless constitutional rights or human rights become an issue. Then I get feisty.

I don't get offended by Jesus preaching. Heck, I sit down and have discussions on my front porch with Mormons and JW's when they knock on my front door (and we get them a handful of times a year). We also had 2 non-denominational churches that stopped by our house, not to talk, but to invite us to their services.

It's not offensive to me.

It just gets annoying, is all it is. Like reality shows and Jersey Shore and Farmville on FB and the Kardashians and Walmart and McDonalds. I can respect the right to engage in such endeavors without agreeing with the endeavors.

I certainly hope I don't offend others here when I bring up Christianity like I bring up McDonalds. It's a personal thing, I know, and personally I have as much use for Christianity as I do for Walmart or the Kardashians. And the saturation of all of the above in everyday life is to me the same.

Peace with cookies, anyone?

 

[waitasec]

It's not just what we experience. It's also what we KNOW and understand.

What is your point?

my point is that there is absolutely no way of knowing what gods attributes are...
every single attribute creates a problem for itself...

when i say water is wet or the fire is hot...there is no problem
making statements like, "you can't walk through a brick wall" do not create problems as there is nothing refutable about these statements within the understanding of the reality we live in...

by attributing aspects to an unknowable possible deity one sets up many obstacles for their self as none of those attributes are affirmed within our collective understanding...empirical knowledge...it's all very subjective.

the problem of evil is a problem because there is evil in the world, not from mans doing but from nature at work...which nullifies god is a good god who cares about us on any level.
why are their sociopaths running around who were born with out the ability to empathize...if god is good? this presents a problem....that is my point.

 

[Kathryn]

I think you're in over your head. You are trying to force God to conform to your ideas of right and wrong, just and unjust. You're angry because He doesn't conform to your ideals.

my point is that there is absolutely no way of knowing what gods attributes are...

Not true. Just because you don't accept the Bible as one of the ways God shows Himself to us, doesn't really prove anything.

every single attribute creates a problem for itself...

No, it creates a problem to YOU.

when i say water is wet or the fire is hot...there is no problem
making statements like, "you can't walk through a brick wall" do not create problems as there is nothing refutable about these statements within the understanding of the reality we live in...

I don't believe that reality is limited to our human understanding or experience. In fact, every day science sheds more understanding of our reality. Were the truths that science has recently uncovered always true? Or did they suddenly spring into existence when we gained more understanding?

the problem of evil is a problem because there is evil in the world, not from mans doing but from nature at work...which nullifies god is a good god who cares about us on any level.

That's your limited understanding of it. Doesn't really prove anything.

 

[waitasec]

I think you're in over your head. You are trying to force God to conform to your ideas of right and wrong, just and unjust. You're angry because He doesn't conform to your ideals.



Not true. Just because you don't accept the Bible as one of the ways God shows Himself to us, doesn't really prove anything.



No, it creates a problem to YOU.



I don't believe that reality is limited to our human understanding or experience. In fact, every day science sheds more understanding of our reality. Were the truths that science has recently uncovered always true? Or did they suddenly spring into existence when we gained more understanding?



That's your limited understanding of it. Doesn't really prove anything.

the bible presents problems as it gives attributes to an unknowable idea, empirically speaking...
if you want to ignore the fact that there are sociopaths being born without the ability to empathize who are in fact a part of our society and impact our daily lives, go ahead... that is your right...but why would a believer ask god "why" when a sociopath affects their life....they already know why..because it was gods will...right?

 

[Kathryn]

the bible presents problems as it gives attributes to an unknowable idea, empirically speaking...
if you want to ignore the fact that there are sociopaths being born without the ability to empathize who are in fact a part of our society and impact our daily lives, go ahead... that is your right...but why would a believer ask god "why" when a sociopath affects their life....they already know why..because it was gods will...right?

As a parent, I don't mind when my kids ask me "why" and I don't believe God minds when I ask Him "Why?" either.

I do, on a regular basis.

 

[Sunstone]

I am hoping that no one is offended or irritated with my question.

I'm always offended by your questions. Always.

It used to be said all the time "I don't hate Christians, I just hate their faith". But lately, not with everyone but with a few people I am wondering this "Do you dislike only the Christian faith or do you also dislike Christians as well?" As I said, there are plenty of people who just don't like the Christian faith, but lately I get the feeling that there may be a few who dislike, even hate, Christians, as well. Not only that, think that all Christians are alike- all fundamentalist, all take the Bible 100% literal, etc.

There will always be some folks who hate Christians as a whole. I think they are being very foolish. Hating all Christians is no less a matter of unwarranted prejudice than reflexively hating all Blacks, etc. But there will always be fools in this world.