The thief on the cross: The rule or the exception?

[Heathen Hammer]

So...there is no water ritual in your belief system?

And the thief of the cross would not be an exception?

I say beyond exception...he should be thought of as the standard.

No water ritual? Baptism for us? No, not really.

As for the Thief, well, I would say he's an exception, sure, a good model. I can see his quality for whom he is. And also as I said, at least, my take on this moment at the end of Jesus' life, I thought he [Jesus] set a good example there, as well. Didn't I seem to say so?

 

[Thief]

No water ritual? Baptism for us? No, not really.

As for the Thief, well, I would say he's an exception, sure, a good model. I can see his quality for whom he is. And also as I said, at least, my take on this moment at the end of Jesus' life, I thought he [Jesus] set a good example there, as well. Didn't I seem to say so?

All fine and good....I simple don't think of him as an exception.

His change of mind and heart may have taken place at the last moment....
and many people would hesitate to nod a favor...

But the Carpenter did.
And if willing for a thief....then there is hope for all.

 

[e.r.m.]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

All fine and good....I simple don't think of him as an exception.
His change of mind and heart may have taken place at the last moment....
and many people would hesitate to nod a favor...
But the Carpenter did.
And if willing for a thief....then there is hope for all.

Remember while the thief was hanging next to Jesus then Jesus had time to explain to the thief about God's purpose for him and the earth. [Acts 24v15]

The majority of mankind have lived and died before Jesus died. [John 3v13]
Some did worse crimes [sin] than the thief.
But that is not an indicator of hope for all.

Doesn't Matthew [20v28] say "MANY" and not all ?_______

Not 'all' because according to Hebrews [6 vs4-6]; Matthew [12v32]
there are those that commit the unforgivable [impossible to renew to repentance] sin.

 

[Thief]

Remember while the thief was hanging next to Jesus then Jesus had time to explain to the thief about God's purpose for him and the earth. [Acts 24v15]

Sermons from the cross?...nay.
Too late for purpose on earth.

The majority of mankind have lived and died before Jesus died. [John 3v13]
Some did worse crimes [sin] than the thief.
But that is not an indicator of hope for all.

Change of mind and heart is what I wrote about.

Doesn't Matthew [20v28] say "MANY" and not all ?_______

Not 'all' because according to Hebrews [6 vs4-6]; Matthew [12v32]
there are those that commit the unforgivable [impossible to renew to repentance] sin.

'FEW"....actually.
Many seek the way....few, ever find it.

I prefer to say the thief is not an exception.
As such, he is then the norm.
ALL, have opportunity to change mind and heart.

Few, learn how it works.

 

[jubilee131]

Whenever the topic of baptism is mentioned as a requirement for salvation, there is almost always one objection: the thief on the cross. The basic idea of this objection is that if this thief was saved and went to Paradise without being baptized, then so can anyone else.

My only problem with this objection is that it is an isolated incident. It is a scenario wherein Jesus specifically nominates someone for entry into paradise. Since Jesus has the authority to grant such a favor, I believe that the man truly went to Paradise. However, this happens no other place in scripture (that I'm aware of), nor does it happen today.

My question is: Does the "thief on the cross" scenario represent the rule (i.e. baptism is not required) or the exception to the rule (baptism is required)?

The answer is quite simple. I am surprised that no one has got the answer to this one. There is no relation to baptism here. Everyone assumes that paradise equals heaven and it doesn't. In John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended
to my father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I
ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and
your God.

Mary was the first to see Jesus after He was resurrected. Jesus was in paradise 3 days. If paradise was heaven then Jesus would have seen His Father but Jesus says that He didn't see His Father yet. Conclusion paradise isn't heaven. Baptism becomes a moot point.

 

[Sleeppy]

This relates to faith. If you can understand what baptism truly is, then you'll realize that it was a symbol. Moses did not put a bronze snake on a pole because the act by itself was necessary for God's power to work.

 

[Sleeppy]

The answer is quite simple. I am surprised that no one has got the answer to this one. There is no relation to baptism here. Everyone assumes that paradise equals heaven and it doesn't. In John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended
to my father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I
ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and
your God.

Mary was the first to see Jesus after He was resurrected. Jesus was in paradise 3 days. If paradise was heaven then Jesus would have seen His Father but Jesus says that He didn't see His Father yet. Conclusion paradise isn't heaven. Baptism becomes a moot point.

I agree.

But i'm not sure were paradise is.. whether in heaven or not. It must not be where the Father is specifically though.

 

[Thief]

The answer is quite simple. I am surprised that no one has got the answer to this one. There is no relation to baptism here. Everyone assumes that paradise equals heaven and it doesn't. In John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended
to my father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I
ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and
your God.

Mary was the first to see Jesus after He was resurrected. Jesus was in paradise 3 days. If paradise was heaven then Jesus would have seen His Father but Jesus says that He didn't see His Father yet. Conclusion paradise isn't heaven. Baptism becomes a moot point.

The Carpenter was in hell three days.
Then rose from the grave.

He lingered here, showing Himself to His unbelieving followers.
THEN He ascended into heaven.

I would agree, paradise is not of this world.....but neither is the kingdom.

And you separate them?
If heaven is not paradise...why go there?

I don't think have the answers.
The answers you saw in this thread you have rejected.

 

[Firstborner]

This relates to faith. If you can understand what baptism truly is, then you'll realize that it was a symbol. Moses did not put a bronze snake on a pole because the act by itself was necessary for God's power to work.

Baptism like the brass serpent is a little more than a symbol, it is a token, an act of faith apart from which there is no salvation. Why? Because true faith was never meant to exist only on a mental level, but to direct our actions as well, to lead us into obedience to the gospel.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

The Carpenter was in hell three days.
Then rose from the grave.

Actually only 2 days.

Friday afternoon to Saturday. Saturday to Sunday.

That's 2 days.

 

[e.r.m.]

Actually only 2 days.

Friday afternoon to Saturday. Saturday to Sunday.

That's 2 days.

True, cause it says on the third day, not three days later.
Sunday would be his third day of death.

 

[Thief]

Actually only 2 days.

Friday afternoon to Saturday. Saturday to Sunday.

That's 2 days.

Nay.

The sabbath is on Saturday.

Garner Ted Armstrong did a episode about this on his show...decades ago.

In detail he explained the customs of the time, and how the crucifixion would need to happen on Wednesday for the prophecy to follow as predicted.

The Carpenter would then have risen on Saturday morning.

 

[waitasec]

Nay.

The sabbath is on Saturday.

Garner Ted Armstrong did a episode about this on his show...decades ago.

In detail he explained the customs of the time, and how the crucifixion would need to happen on Wednesday for the prophecy to follow as predicted.

The Carpenter would then have risen on Saturday morning.

on the sabbath?
oops

 

[Desert Snake]

^ For what it's worth, on my "are unbaptized people going to hell" poll nobody voted yes.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Nay.

The sabbath is on Saturday.

Garner Ted Armstrong did a episode about this on his show...decades ago.

In detail he explained the customs of the time, and how the crucifixion would need to happen on Wednesday for the prophecy to follow as predicted.

The Carpenter would then have risen on Saturday morning.

Hm, wait, so, that's only one day?? Im confused now as to what you are saying..

Are we moving the crucifixion to Wednesday to make if fall in with the prophecy??

 

[Thief]

Hm, wait, so, that's only one day?? Im confused now as to what you are saying..

Are we moving the crucifixion to Wednesday to make if fall in with the prophecy??

As I was growing up, I would hear the words....
descended into hell and rose on the third day...

Then I hear the sabbath would be on Saturday, and the first day of the week is supposed to be Sunday.

The Jews have a different line of thought about weekdays.
At least they did back then.
Our current style of calendar was invented centuries later.

For the prophecy to fall into weekday scheme of things....
The trial and execution wold need to conclude Wednesday afternoon.
Threes days in hell.
Resurrection on the sabbath morning.

That the current practice has been shifted to fit the work week....
shouldn't surprise you.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

As I was growing up, I would hear the words....
descended into hell and rose on the third day...

Then I hear the sabbath would be on Saturday, and the first day of the week is supposed to be Sunday.

The Jews have a different line of thought about weekdays.
At least they did back then.
Our current style of calendar was invented centuries later.

For the prophecy to fall into weekday scheme of things....
The trial and execution wold need to conclude Wednesday afternoon.
Threes days in hell.
Resurrection on the sabbath morning.

That the current practice has been shifted to fit the work week....
shouldn't surprise you.

Right. One thing I am aware of is that until I think, the mid 19th century, days began at noon, not midnight. But even so, that wouldn't change the fact that Jesus dieing on a Friday [as the gospels say], and rising on 'the sabbath', would still make '3 days' wrong whether you take the Hebrew sabbath, or the Christian one.

Essentially what I am saying is by claiming a Wednesday crucifixion, you're retrofitting the story to make up for its inaccuracy; you're correcting a mistake via retrofit, not 'revealing the truth'.

 

[e.r.m.]

^ For what it's worth, on my "are unbaptized people going to hell" poll nobody voted yes.

What if they're wrong?

 

[waitasec]

What if they're wrong?

"if" such a big word...