Conversion to Islam

[A-ManESL]

I was reading from Karen Armstrong's A History of God today and came across this passage:

Nobody in the new empire was forced to accept the Islamic faith; indeed, for a century after Muhammad's death, conversion was not encouraged and, in about 700, was actually forbidden by law: Muslims believed that Islam was for the Arabs as Judaism was for the sons of Jacob.

Although I had heard that initial Muslims believed that the shariat of Muhammad (PBUH) was for the Arabs (Cf Martin Lings' Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources) this is the first time I am reading that conversion was actually forbidden. Has anyone else ever heard of this?

 

[kai]

This may be of interest;

In the wake of the Ridda wars, and of the Arabs' sudden conquest of most of the Near East, the new religion became identified more sharply as a monotheism for the Arab people.
As is well known, the Arabs made no attempt to impose their faith on their new subjects, and at first in fact discouraged conversions on the part of non-Arabs.
Jonathan P. Berkey, The Formation of Islam: Religion and Society in the Near East, 600-1800, 2003

BBC - Religions - Islam: Early rise of Islam (632-700)

 

[elmarna]

In any form of thinking -social , religious, or ways of living.
People are always wanting the fellowship that bonds them together and will define those who do not adress and agree to the way they approach life as "undesireable."
While I never read or heard of the muslim faith outlawed; I tend to believe it did occur.
Weather it was from control or bigotry. I do not know.
Even fear of something they could not understand could not be ruled out.

 

[A-ManESL]

elmarna did you understand my post? I am saying that initially after Muslims conquered some region they did not allow conversion; this law was made by the Muslims themselves; not by those who had been conquered.

 

[elmarna]

It is hard to believe that they would find it wise to insist that their own beiefs were not to be considered!
This I can not support as a truth!
Not only is it contrary to the foundations of beliefs ,but captures a ruling of the obserd!

 

[Caladan]

I think we need to remember that although Karen Armstrong is popular she is not an Islamic scholar, or technically a scholar in general. a lot of her writings are of her own opinions of history. If we can find more sources on this topic in general (like what kai provided) it may help.

 

[charles brough]

I was reading from Karen Armstrong's A History of God today and came across this passage:
Although I had heard that initial Muslims believed that the shariat of Muhammad (PBUH) was for the Arabs (Cf Martin Lings' Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources this is the first time I am reading that conversion was actually forbidden. Has anyone else ever heard of this?

Is it in the Koran? More likely not, but even if it is, it is misleading to place much emphasis on some passages. After all, it says in the Bible we should play with snakes, drink wine and speak "in tongues!" Like with Christians, it is what Muslims do that counts, not what their Book tells them. And converts are accepted. Mostly, however, they grow in numbers by having such large families.

Also, the whole of South East Asia was converted to Islam in the 15th century by Muslim traders. They also converted Persia to Islam and Persians were not scruffy desert nomads! The were not Arabs.

You read the "History of God" book. What did she say about the origin of the concept? Did she give a reason why people believe(d) it?

 

[Zeta Metroid]

That doesn't make any sense.
My opinion on history is that if they don't cite any ancient sources (like some sort of law code that says "no conversion), whatever they're saying should be ignored...it seems like this is one of those cases.

 

[YmirGF]

I think we need to remember that although Karen Armstrong is popular she is not an Islamic scholar, or technically a scholar in general. a lot of her writings are of her own opinions of history. If we can find more sources on this topic in general (like what kai provided) it may help.

Indeed, Dan. Karen Armstrong is not someone whom anyone should take too literally or, for that matter, all too seriously.

I had not read the quoted bit prior to this, but have read that conversion was outlawed in the Bosnian region as the Muslim rulers saw an end to their cash cow if they allowed rich non-Muslims to "revert". They could get far more out of them if they remained infidels.

 

[Falvlun]

I had not read the quoted bit prior to this, but have read that conversion was outlawed in the Bosnian region as the Muslim rulers saw an end to their cash cow if they allowed rich non-Muslims to "revert". They could get far more out of them if they remained infidels.

From the wikipedia article on the spread of Islam:

Conversion within the Empire: Umayyad Period vs. Abassid Period

There are a number of historians who see the rule of the Umayyads as responsible for setting up the "dhimmah" to increase taxes from the dhimmis to benefit the Arab Muslim community financially and to discourage conversion.[9] Islam was initially associated with the ethnic identity of the Arabs and required formal association with an Arab tribe and the adoption of the client status of mawali.[9] Governors lodged complaints with the caliph when he enacted laws that made conversion easier, depriving the provinces of revenues.

I could see how, financially, conversion could have been exploited, on both sides. As far as I can tell, it doesn't seem to have been a widespread policy of Islam to discourage conversion.

The part I put in purple does intrigue me. When reading Karen Armstrong's "Muhammed: A Prophet for Our Times" (same auther... a trend...), she indicated that part of the strong initial appeal for Islam was that it was a revelation seemingly catered towards the Arabic people. Whether intended or no, I could see how this could appeal to a people, and perhaps, drive some of them to desire to keep this revelation for their people alone.

A short thread HERE on topic.

The consensus seems to be that Islam was always meant for everyone, a universal religion.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

People are always wanting the fellowship that bonds them together and will define those who do not adress and agree to the way they approach life as "undesireable."

It's why I hate religion, more than anything else. The passion to know the Truth forces the religious to shun anyone who doesn't know the same Truth.

Generally, I mean.

But God doesn't care what we believe. The whole 'faith' thing is one huge human error, I'm pretty sure.

 

[tarekabdo12]

elmarna did you understand my post? I am saying that initially after Muslims conquered some region they did not allow conversion; this law was made by the Muslims themselves; not by those who had been conquered.

This is sth that has a controversy around them. I and others believe that Prophet Muhammed ordered to kill those who relinquished Islam and stabbed It in its back then fought against Muslims and killed them. This is the penalty for betraying and killing Muslims while giving a phantom that they adopted the Islamic dogma. This is not a retribution for choosing a different dogma ; it's a punishment for betrayal of a nation. Others believe that we should kill anyone who recants but not me and many of those I know and we actually in Egypt refuse it as a law of nation as well as most of our Muslim scholars in El-Azhar. I agree that everyone who announces overtly that he espouses a certain idea, we can't kill him because we can't do sth against our original ideas. This is a]sth that carries wide difference in opinions between people but i see that I can't ban people from shifting their religion from Islam to another religion and allow them to turn to Islam from other beliefs. In addition, Prophet Mohammed and Omar Ibn-El Khattab didn't kill some of those who relinquished Islam.


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This is a video for those who speak Arabic that elucidates my opinion.

 

[tarekabdo12]

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This is another video[Arabic] that asserts my opinions by Tarek El Swidan. He uses a very good logic that I totally accepts.

The Qura'n gives people total freedom to choose their tenet. Dr.Tarek says that it is a must for all Muslims to protect the freedom of beliefs of others.

 

[tarekabdo12]

[youtube]_marlp65Z0g[/youtube]
‫

This is another video[Arabic] that asserts my opinions by Tarek El Swidan. He uses a very good logic that I totally accepts.

The Qura'n gives people total freedom to choose their tenet. Dr.Tarek says that it is a must for all Muslims to protect the freedom of beliefs of others.

The problem is not in the religion in those who misunderstand the religion.

 

[Falvlun]

This is sth that has a controversy around them. I and others believe that Prophet Muhammed ordered to kill those who relinquished Islam and stabbed It in its back then fought against Muslims and killed them. This is the penalty for betraying and killing Muslims while giving a phantom that they adopted the Islamic dogma. This is not a retribution for choosing a different dogma ; it's a punishment for betrayal of a nation. Others believe that we should kill anyone who recants but not me and many of those I know and we actually in Egypt refuse it as a law of nation as well as most of our Muslim scholars in El-Azhar. I agree that everyone who announces overtly that he espouses a certain idea, we can't kill him because we can't do sth against our original ideas. This is a]sth that carries wide difference in opinions between people but i see that I can't ban people from shifting their religion from Islam to another religion and allow them to turn to Islam from other beliefs. In addition, Prophet Mohammed and Omar Ibn-El Khattab didn't kill some of those who relinquished Islam.

The OP and the post you responded to isn't about whether Muslims allow people to convert from Islam to a different religion-- which is the scenario you are addressing. It's about whether Muslims, at any point in their history, discouraged people from actually converting to Islam.

 

[tarekabdo12]

But God doesn't care what we believe. The whole 'faith' thing is one huge human error, I'm pretty sure.

You can just check:
Tooth Brushing between Medicine and Islam


Tooth Brushing between Medicine and Islam



Talbina : an Advice from the Prophet and a Scientific Truth

Talbina : an Advice from the Prophet and a Scientific Truth
Blood eating is banned in Islam

Blood eating is banned in islam
Sex Determination In Mankind As Inimitably Cited By The Qur'an-

HENNA-

The Pork Forbiddance


Medicine
Prophet Mohammed predicts sexually transmitted diseases

prophet Mohummed predicts sexually transmitted diseases



The Holy Quran Refers to the Atmosphere

The Holy Quran Refers to the Atmosphere

Haman as mentioned in the Holy Quran


Haman as mentioned in the Holy Quran
The mentioning of the old Egyptian rulers in the Glorious Quran and the difference between the word


The mentioning of the old Egyptian rulers in the Glorious Quran and the difference between the word
[FONT=&quot]THE SUN ALSO MOVES ALONG[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

THE SUN ALSO MOVES ALONG - THE ISLAM SHOW
THE ROUNDNESS OF THE EARTH
He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night. (Qur'an, 39:5)
In the Qur'an, the words used for describing the universe are quite remarkable. The Arabic word which is translated as "to wrap" in the above verse is "takwir." In English, it means "to make one thing lap over another, folded up as a garment that is laid away." For instance, in Arabic dictionaries this word is used for the action of wrapping one thing around another, in the way that a turban is put on. The information given in the verse about the day and the night wrapping each other up includes accurate information about the shape of the world. This can be true only if the Earth is round. This means that in the Qur'an, which was revealed in the 7th century, the roundness of the world was hinted at.
However, it should be remembered that the understanding of astronomy of the time perceived the world differently. It was then thought that the world was a flat plane and all scientific calculations and explanations were based on this belief. However, the Glorious Qur'an has employed the most definitive words when it came to describing the universe. These facts, which we could only correctly fathom in our century, have been in the Qur'an for a vast length of time.

ALCULATING THE LUNAR YEAR
It is He Who appointed the sun to give radiance, and the moon to give light, assigning it phases so you would know the number of years and the reckoning of time. Allah did not create these things except with truth. We make the Signs clear for people who know. (Qur'an, 10:5)
And We have decreed set phases for the moon, until it ends up looking like an old date branch. (Qur'an, 36:39)

​

In the first of the above verses, Allah has clearly revealed that the Moon will be a means of measurement for people to calculate the year. Furthermore, our attention is also drawn to the fact that these calculations will be performed according to the positions of the Moon as it revolves in its orbit. Since the angles between the Earth and Moon and the Moon and Sun constantly change, we see the Moon in different forms at different times. Furthermore, our ability to see the Moon is made possible by the fact that it is illuminated by the Sun. The amount of the lighted half of the Moon we see from Earth changes. Bearing in mind these changes, a number of calculations can be made, making it possible for human beings to measure the year.
In former times a month was calculated as the time between two full moons, or the time it took the Moon to travel around the Earth. According to this, one month was equal to 29 days, 12 hours and 44 minutes. This is known as the "lunar month." Twelve lunar months represent one year, according to the Hijri calendar. However, there is a difference of eleven days between the Hijri calendar and the Gregorian calendar, in which a year is the time it takes the Earth to orbit the Sun. Indeed, attention is drawn to this difference in another verse:
They stayed in their Cave for three hundred years and added nine. (Qur'an, 18:25)
We can clarify the time referred to in the verse thus: 300 years x 11 days (the difference which forms every year) = 3,300 days. Bearing in mind that one solar year lasts 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes and 45.5 seconds, 3,300 days/365.24 days = 9 years. To put it another way, 300 years according to the Gregorian calendar is equal to 300+9 years according to the Hijri calendar. As we can see, the verse refers to this finely calculated difference of 9 years. (Allah knows best.) There is no doubt that the Qur'an, which contains such pieces of information, which transcended the everyday knowledge of the time, is a miraculous revelation.



Miracles of the Qur'an - Harun Yahya


The Victory of Byzantium

The Victory of Byzantium
Prophet Mohammed predicts The Turkic-Mongols fight against Moslems

Prophet Mohummed predicts The Turkic-Mongols fight against Moslems
Prophet Mohammed predicts The Climatic change in the Arab Lands

Prophet Mohammed predicts The CLimatic change in the Arab Lands
The Holy Quran on the darkness of the universe

The Holy Quran on the darkness of the universe




Islam carries evidence that can support its tenet. You can review the site for more information. Also, Islam is so simple. It involves the presence of a creator, messengers and manners. It's just that which makes it easy to adopt as a way of life. It doesn't contradict science since the Qur'an has pointed to the roundness of earth, the movement of the earth, sun and the moon in orbits and didn't mention the time of creation of the world or its end or when Noah was present on earth. We were also ordered to search in all fields of science and to manage your life using work and science.

 

[tarekabdo12]

It's why I hate religion, more than anything else. The passion to know the Truth forces the religious to shun anyone who doesn't know the same Truth.

Freedom above anything, that's what I believe. Blame people not religion.

 

[tarekabdo12]

The OP and the post you responded to isn't about whether Muslims allow people to convert from Islam to a different religion-- which is the scenario you are addressing. It's about whether Muslims, at any point in their history, discouraged people from actually converting to Islam.

Ok, I'll read it again as it appears that I missed the point. Thanks. But even if somebody did so, this action isn't out of the Islamic dogma.

Prophet Muhammed said that there's no difference between in an Arab and a non-Arab except by his piety and the Qur'an also asserted this meaning many times. So, this already discounted and I have never heard about it in my life. I never considered an Arabic man better than other people. People are better when they do better actions, that's just it. If somebody says the contrary so he contradicts the basics of his religion.

 

[Falvlun]

Ok, I'll read it again as it appears that I missed the point. Thanks. But even if somebody did so, this action isn't out of the Islamic dogma.

Prophet Muhammed said that there's no difference between in an Arab and a non-Arab except by his piety and the Qur'an also asserted this meaning many times. So, this already discounted and I have never heard about it in my life. I never considered an Arabic man better than other people. People are better when they do better actions, that's just it. If somebody says the contrary so he contradicts the basics of his religion.

That does seem to be the general feeling about it, tarekabdo. The instance alluded to seems like it was more about financial or political gain, rather than religious doctrine.

 

[tarekabdo12]

Nobody in the new empire was forced to accept the Islamic faith; indeed, for a century after Muhammad's death, conversion was not encouraged and, in about 700, was actually forbidden by law: Muslims believed that Islam was for the Arabs as Judaism was for the sons of Jacob.

Totally false. Islam is for everyone and I've never read about it. This is not for any reason.