Is Punishment Justice?

[Storm]

Just a note: "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." originally served to constrain (delimit) retribution and was relatively progressive.

I'm well aware, but you were right that it bore mentioning.

 

[Adonis65]

Mainly, can you see Justice occurring without punishment (as you understand that)?

The only way I could see this notion being effective is if you follow the saying "kill him/her with niceness". Or perhaps if you are gushing with forgiveness; this can sometimes induce guilt in the offender.

 

[Darkness]

I don't know anymore.

I used to think justice was "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

UU showed me a better way: social justice, building the Beloved Community... but I'm still working on reconciling the two.

I do not think social justice is at odds with the concept of "an eye for an eye." For instance, social justice factors into the equation when it comes to poor people stealing in a depressed neighbourhood. We should focus more on correction, because we can easily understand the socio-economic factors which leads to petty theft. However, the criminal is a serial killer or a serial rapist, the equation should have different parameters. It is not a matter of social justice, because raping and murdering are above the domain that progressivism hopes to correct (though many progressies, including myself, believe that more feminism would decrease the number of rapes).

I find that in many conversations justice and revenge are interchangeable. We say we "want justice" for a wronged party, but what we really crave is vengeance. We want to hurt the miscreant just to assuage our own ire.This doesn't benefit either the the malefactor, the victim or society as a whole.
I think, ideally, we'd have a happier long-term outcome if we concentrated more on correcting the social defect that led to the crime.

We should ask ourselves what we hope to accomplish by a given action before we blindly lash out.

Vengeance can be good or it can be bad. Woe unto the day where I do not desire vengeance upon those who have harmed a loved one. You have to balance the desire for vengeance and justice. Without an ethical desire for justice we are merely animals, but without the raw emotional power of vengeance we are a dead heart.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

I did a project on the jail system in Norway and in the U.S.

The main difference between the two is that Norway works on rehabilitation, and the U.S. works on punishment.

The re-imprisonment rate in Norway is something like 20%, while in the U.S. it's close to 60%.

I'd say the Norwegians have the right idea.

 

[Koldo]

I did a project on the jail system in Norway and in the U.S.

The main difference between the two is that Norway works on rehabilitation, and the U.S. works on punishment.

The re-imprisonment rate in Norway is something like 20%, while in the U.S. it's close to 60%.

I'd say the Norwegians have the right idea.

Depends on the point of view.

 

[Acim]

Anyone care to comment on where you get your views from?

 

[evane123]

A few questions regarding punishment and justice.

Mainly, can you see Justice occurring without punishment (as you understand that)?

Why do you think punishment and justice are seen to go hand-in-hand?

Do you see those in (your local) society who dole out punishment as guilt-free?

When and how, in your opinion, is innocence lost (completely)?

I am a bit more interested in responses from those who are basing their ideas not from a religious doctrine. While curious about why those individuals may think justice and punishment are or must be intertwined.

I think problems can be solved without punishment. I think criminal negligence is a reason why punishment exist.
I think negligence is not a appropriate reason to punish especially when the people doing the punishing are the ones who educated the people they are punishing.
I think punishment can be used to enslave people. I think punishment during "justice was used to try to justify enslavement and continued till people forgot what they were doing from religion. I think punishment can try to be a criminal negligence deter ant, but getting rid of the negligence with education would have to occur to show they were trying to get rid of the criminal negligence.
I think the police in the area are criminal negligent because i told them to use there own minds and that they should not follow orders because they could end up in Guantanamo bay because of there terrorist activity.
I think knowing is not possible.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Depends on the point of view.

I guess you're right.

 

[ChristineES]

I believe more in consequences than I do punishment. If someone is going to get out of prison, then maybe they should be taught how to be better citizens than they were. That isn't really plausible, since it would cost too much.

 

[Sunstone]

There is no justice. It's a bogus concept. It seems to be derived from a notion that revenge or retribution can be made proportional to the offense that was committed. And if you stick with the notion that justice is mere proportional revenge, then you might at times -- but not always -- have a legitimate concept. But when you mix in with that the nebulous implication that proportional revenge is somehow both always the best thing you can do and also in some sense required of you, then you are dealing with liquid BS.

I recall an old law professor who used to begin the semester by asking his students, "how many of you are here to learn about justice." When some would raise their hands, he would advise them to take a philosophy course. "The law is not about justice", he would say, "It's about remedies."

 

[idav]

There is no justice. It's a bogus concept. It seems to be derived from a notion that revenge or retribution can be made proportional to the offense that was committed. And if you stick with the notion that justice is mere proportional revenge, then you might at times -- but not always -- have a legitimate concept. But when you mix in with that the nebulous implication that proportional revenge is somehow both always the best thing you can do and also in some sense required of you, then you are dealing with liquid BS.

I recall an old law professor who used to begin the semester by asking his students, "how many of you are here to learn about justice." When some would raise their hands, he would advise them to take a philosophy course. "The law is not about justice", he would say, "It's about remedies."

I can understand people wanting it to be somehow proportional but that isn't usually possible. Some justice is at least better than doing nothing or else it would be like we don't care what happens to victims.

 

[Koldo]

There is no justice. It's a bogus concept. It seems to be derived from a notion that revenge or retribution can be made proportional to the offense that was committed. And if you stick with the notion that justice is mere proportional revenge, then you might at times -- but not always -- have a legitimate concept. But when you mix in with that the nebulous implication that proportional revenge is somehow both always the best thing you can do and also in some sense required of you, then you are dealing with liquid BS.

I recall an old law professor who used to begin the semester by asking his students, "how many of you are here to learn about justice." When some would raise their hands, he would advise them to take a philosophy course. "The law is not about justice", he would say, "It's about remedies."

It is a matter of semantics.
You understand justice as being something else.

 

[Darkness]

I did a project on the jail system in Norway and in the U.S.

The main difference between the two is that Norway works on rehabilitation, and the U.S. works on punishment.

The re-imprisonment rate in Norway is something like 20%, while in the U.S. it's close to 60%.

I'd say the Norwegians have the right idea.

I'd say the Norwegians have the right idea when it comes to the lower-end of crime. However, isn't it true that you could commit mass murder and still only serve 20-years in prison. That does not seem sensible.

 

[Storm]

I recall an old law professor who used to begin the semester by asking his students, "how many of you are here to learn about justice." When some would raise their hands, he would advise them to take a philosophy course. "The law is not about justice", he would say, "It's about remedies."

I like that. I like that a lot.

 

[Sunstone]

I can understand people wanting it to be somehow proportional but that isn't usually possible. Some justice is at least better than doing nothing or else it would be like we don't care what happens to victims.

"Some justice"? You seem to be using "justice" as a synonym for "punishment" without entirely realizing it.

 

[Sunstone]

It is a matter of semantics.
You understand justice as being something else.

Yeah, that old law professor must have known less than you, Koldo. But then everyone knows less than you, according to you.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

I'd say the Norwegians have the right idea when it comes to the lower-end of crime. However, isn't it true that you could commit mass murder and still only serve 20-years in prison. That does not seem sensible.

The maximum sentence is 21 years. Yes that seems like it shouldn't be enough. But in those 21 years, they are learning how to become a functional member of society again, learning a trade so that they can get work when they get out of jail, learning that positivity is much better than negativity. The Norwegian jail system is based on positive reinforcement. The jails look like college dorm rooms. But in American jail systems, prisoners get out knowing how to be a better criminal. In Norway, they know how to be better people.

 

[Darkness]

The maximum sentence is 21 years. Yes that seems like it shouldn't be enough. But in those 21 years, they are learning how to become a functional member of society again, learning a trade so that they can get work when they get out of jail, learning that positivity is much better than negativity. The Norwegian jail system is based on positive reinforcement. The jails look like college dorm rooms. But in American jail systems, prisoners get out knowing how to be a better criminal. In Norway, they know how to be better people.

I understand that positive reinforcement is a good thing, but only on the lower-end, in my opinion. I do not buy the Christian concept that you can ask for forgiveness after slaughtering countless innocents and immediately welcomed into heaven. If somebody rapes and murders my daughter, he or she had better not be released in 21-years to become a productive member of society. That is not fair, and I will exercise my right to 21-years in prison to blow his or her brains out. I am leery about capital punishment, but in my opinion, there has to be a line that cannot be crossed; where a crime is considered so heinous that a person can never be considered fit to reenter society. We should balance the concepts of punishment and rehabilitation, not throw the concept of punishment out all together. I am sorry if it sounds cruel, but a person who would rape and murder another person does not deserve to live a productive fruitful life.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

I understand that positive reinforcement is a good thing, but only on the lower-end, in my opinion. I do not buy the Christian concept that you can ask for forgiveness after slaughtering countless innocents and immediately welcomed into heaven. If somebody rapes and murders my daughter, he or she had better not be released in 21-years to become a productive member of society. That is not fair, and I will exercise my right to 21-years in prison to blow his or her brains out. I am leery about capital punishment, but in my opinion, there has to be a line that cannot be crossed; where a crime is considered so heinous that a person can never be considered fit to reenter society. We should balance the concepts of punishment and rehabilitation, not throw the concept of punishment out all together. I am sorry if it sounds cruel, but a person who would rape and murder another person does not deserve to live a productive fruitful life.

And I agree with you. To be honest, if a serious crime was committed against me, I'd probably want to get revenge myself and not even bother with having them punished in jail. That makes more sense to me, personally. I was just saying that what Norway is doing seems to be working in the sense that it stops (for the most part) repeat offenders.

 

[idav]

"Some justice"? You seem to be using "justice" as a synonym for "punishment" without entirely realizing it.

What I mean is doing something is better than doing nothing. Doing nothing means justice wouldn't exist either. Any level of punishment to the offender or restitution for the victim is justice.