Do Christians really think...

[ImmortalFlame]

Actually it is a belief.
It's a concept that's been generated through personal biase. If a person has been influenced by another human being then by atheist standards, (the bible was written by man) you're following a belief.
The concept to listen to reason alone is also more then 3000 years old according to buddhist.

A belief is "something you hold to be true". Since the only position that all atheists have in common is that the supposition "God exists" is not strictly true, that means that atheism is not a belief.

They may not be doctrines but they generate influence in much the same way.

No, they don't, since doctrines are defined as being laws or set ideologies that summarise or lay the foundations for the practices and philosophies of a particular belief. The God Delusion does no such thing. It is simply a book that examines faith, examines atheism and makes no assertions about being the foundation, setting practices or any universal philosophies for atheism.

Only time I've heard of muslims talking about meeting God is them describing what happens after they die. I could be wrong.

Point was, a persons life was changed in an instant. I doubt Mickey mouse and the mousketeers will stop someone from being an alcoholic, or drug addict. But I've seen it happen when people become Christian.
Also something I've never seen with muslims, but I don't hang out with them.

I've also seen it happen when people become Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, or just about any religion on earth. In fact, in my experience, it happens more often when people become Buddhist than when they become Christian.

Also, I have known someone who stopped being a heavy drinking drug addict when they stopped being Christian and became a Buddhist, then eventually an atheist.

So, your point is?

 

[darkendless]

Katzpur, you are most certainly entitled to ignore my posts if you wish, but please don't mistake my arguments as insults. I never said you were dumb or stupid, I never insulted you. I am using leprachauns as an example of why I don't believe, their is no insult to be gleemed from this. Since your position is arguing that of a being that can in no way be proven I have to, for discussion, use a being that is also unproven. I chose leprachauns, I could of chosen unicorns, flying pigs, fairies, santa clause, etc. It is in no way meant to insult you.

BTW, complaining about insults(without reason) and then insulting me by calling me juvenile and a spoiled adolescent may not be the best way to present yourself. Just a thought.

Comparing someones God to a Leprechaun can be considered offensive but its not your fault. I feel it is someones problem if they do not like the comparisons you make. If they don't like it then they shouldn't respond.

I remember getting hell reigned down upon me for comparing the bible to the story of the wooden horse of Troy.

 

[Blackdog22]

Point was, a persons life was changed in an instant. I doubt Mickey mouse and the mousketeers will stop someone from being an alcoholic, or drug addict. But I've seen it happen when people become Christian.
Also something I've never seen with muslims, but I don't hang out with them.

I think your other points have been answered well so I am going to focus on this one. You say you have never seen a muslims life change, but you don't hang out with them? You do realize that hanging out and learning about a religion is required to.... learn about said religion don't you?

Thats like saying, planes don't fly, but I have never seen or been in a plane before. If that is the case then how would you know whether planes flew or not? Assuming things is not something I would bother with when making an argument.

 

[That Dude]

Lack of belief is not a belief. There are several threads on this forum if you're interested.

I've been to them.
I argued the facts, but atheist don't seem to comprehend the simple idea of self biase and how it is generated through influence.
Influence is a belief because it's generated emotionally.
If you're influenced to need evidence then the influence you got to recieve evidence in the first place is a belief.

They do not create fundies though. Fundies are unique to abrahamic religions in that they are almost useless to the progression of humanity.

No, they create die hard liberals. Which was born of atheism. Which doesn't in the least mean that liberal atheist don't act on their emotions, like everyone else does when it comes to their political views.

By your logic fundamentalist atheists would be proficient in evolution and biology. I can't see how that is a bad thing.

uh, I don't know where the fundie thing came from, but thanks for the insight to your general beliefs.
Richard Dawkins is a kiss butt liberal and he makes a perfect evolutionist.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I've been to them.
I argued the facts, but atheist don't seem to comprehend the simple idea of self biase and how it is generated through influence.
Influence is a belief because it's generated emotionally.
If you're influenced to need evidence then the influence you got to recieve evidence in the first place is a belief.

Once again, belief is "a position which you hold to be true".

With that in mind, what is the position which all atheists uniquely "hold to be true"?

 

[That Dude]

I think your other points have been answered well so I am going to focus on this one. You say you have never seen a muslims life change, but you don't hang out with them? You do realize that hanging out and learning about a religion is required to.... learn about said religion don't you?

That's why I said it. From a general perspective that's my understanding. That and what I've read about the religion itself.
You're making some pretty serious claims about Christians but do you hang out with them?

Thats like saying, planes don't fly, but I have never seen or been in a plane before.

No it's not. If I read the instruction manual to a plane then I can guess for myself that it fly's. I don't have to be in one while it's in the air.
You miss a lot for someone who needs only to see blood and cuts to comprehend a persons hand isn't there.
Now if someone tells me aliens were flying a plane, that's a different story altogether. I'd have to be there for that.

 

[That Dude]

Once again, belief is "a position which you hold to be true".

So you don't hold to the belief that God doesnt exist as true?

With that in mind, what is the position which all atheists uniquely "hold to be true"?

God doesn't exist.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So you don't hold to the belief that God doesnt exist as true?

God doesn't exist.

Except that's not what atheism is. Atheism is the absence of belief in a God - you said so yourself earlier - not the belief that there isn't. Although people who believe that there is no God come under the definition of atheism, and such a position would be a belief, the broader definition of atheism is not a belief in the nonexistence of God, but the absence of belief in the existence of one.

Ergo, atheism is not a belief - it is the absence of a belief.

 

[darkendless]

I've been to them.
I argued the facts, but atheist don't seem to comprehend the simple idea of self biase and how it is generated through influence.
Influence is a belief because it's generated emotionally.
If you're influenced to need evidence then the influence you got to recieve evidence in the first place is a belief.

Funny I have never read Dawkins and have a small knowledge base of evolution. Therefore can I not call myself an atheist? Perhaps a Nihlist would be better considering the concept of belief repulses me.

No, they create die hard liberals. Which was born of atheism. Which doesn't in the least mean that liberal atheist don't act on their emotions, like everyone else does when it comes to their political views.

uh, I don't know where the fundie thing came from, but thanks for the insight to your general beliefs.
Richard Dawkins is a kiss butt liberal and he makes a perfect evolutionist.

Liberals want religion out of public institutions. I feel it is a reasonable request. Religion is a choice and not one that should be forced on others. From threads on this forum I have seen information regarding abstinence only programmes and same sex marriage which is dominated by petty people and their religions.

My beliefs are non-existant. I can't say i've wasted much time considering what I believe. While the concept of belief and its associated affects is rather interesting from an educational perspective (why I contribute to this forum) I have no personal will to find a belief system.

 

[That Dude]

Except that's not what atheism is. Atheism is the absence of belief in a God - you said so yourself earlier - not the belief that there isn't. Although people who believe that there is no God come under the definition of atheism, and such a position would be a belief, the broader definition of atheism is not a belief in the nonexistence of God, but the absence of belief in the existence of one.

Ergo, atheism is not a belief - it is the absence of a belief.

I noticed you only answered the question you thought would get your point across.

Can you answer this question as well?
You don't hold to the belief that God doesnt exist as true?

I also explained the absence of the belief earlier as a person who believes only reason should dictate their actions. Something buddhist have been believing for thousands of years now.
While there are different kinds of atheist, there are also different kinds of influence.
Pretty much for the same reasons you have different kinds of beliefs within the same religion. They're all influenced by another human being. Religious or not.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I noticed you only answered the question you thought would get your point across.
You don't hold to the belief that God doesnt exist as true?

Nope. I don't believe the supposition that God doesn't exist is true.

I also explained the absence of the belief earlier as a person who believes only reason should dictate their actions. Something buddhist have been believing for thousands of years now.
While there are different kinds of atheist, there are also different kinds of influence.
Pretty much for the same reasons you have different kinds of beliefs within the same religion. They're all influenced by another human being. Religious or not.

What does that have to do with atheism being a belief? Atheism, that is, the "absence of belief in a God" has been around arguably longer than belief in God has.

 

[That Dude]

Nope. I don't believe the supposition that God doesn't exist is true.

So what is the likelihood that God exist?
And how did you come to that conclusion?

What does that have to do with atheism being a belief? Atheism, that is, the "absence of belief in a God" has been around arguably longer than belief in God has.

Would you agree with the following statement?
We were all born atheist, how we stay that way depends on how we live our lives.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So what is the likelihood that God exist?
And how did you come to that conclusion?

You want me to calculate the probability of a largely abstract, supernatural, unquantifiable and mostly hypothetical or allegorical being actually existing? I have no idea. I don't see how that's remotely relevant.

Would you agree with the following statement?
We were all born atheist, how we stay that way depends on how we live our lives.

To an extent, yes, although I would agree that stating that all people are born atheists - while technically accurate - isn't very practical in terms of discussion, since the notion of rejecting or not believing in a God is only really relevant provided you have some cognitive bearing on what a God is or could be defined as.

 

[Blackdog22]

That's why I said it. From a general perspective that's my understanding. That and what I've read about the religion itself.
You're making some pretty serious claims about Christians but do you hang out with them?

Yeah I was a Christian for 15 years, and I have many Christian friends and family. The "claims" I make about Christianity are backed up by the Bible. If I stated Christianity didn't change lives, like you have said about islam, then you would have a reason to ask why, but I haven't claimed anything about a religion I know nothing about.

No it's not. If I read the instruction manual to a plane then I can guess for myself that it fly's. I don't have to be in one while it's in the air.
You miss a lot for someone who needs only to see blood and cuts to comprehend a persons hand isn't there.
Now if someone tells me aliens were flying a plane, that's a different story altogether. I'd have to be there for that.

So saying that you believe something about Muslims, yet you never hang out with them isn't saying that you don't hang out with Muslims, yet believe something about them? How is that?

Also, are you telling me that you have studied the Quran? If so then you would read that it does in fact change lives. If you believe something based on what you read, like reading the manual to a plane and assuming it flies, then you should believe that Muslims lives are changed based on what you've read. However, you don't believe that which sort of makes this nonsensical.

 

[That Dude]

You want me to calculate the probability of a largely abstract, supernatural, unquantifiable and mostly hypothetical or allegorical being actually existing? I have no idea. I don't see how that's remotely relevant.

It's relevant to scientist. Figuring out how everything happened would be easier then figuring out that God did it. You know why? Because they'd have to figure out God.
So if God is as irrelevant as you say he is, or as your statement makes him out to be, then how do they know it would be harder to figure out he exist?

To an extent, yes, although I would agree that stating that all people are born atheists - while technically accurate - isn't very practical in terms of discussion, since the notion of rejecting or not believing in a God is only really relevant provided you have some cognitive bearing on what a God is or could be defined as.

See above.

 

[Blackdog22]

So what is the likelihood that God exist?
And how did you come to that conclusion?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but hope you don't mind if I chime in here. The likelihood that God exists for Atheists is the same likelihood that leprachauns exist for Christians, or anyone else.

How did you come to the conclusion that leprachauns don't exist?

Please be aware this isn't to bash your beliefs, I am showing you, this atheists, point of view without the dogma and rationalizations that exist within a religious belief.

Would you agree with the following statement?
We were all born atheist, how we stay that way depends on how we live our lives.

We were born without knowledge of such beings, just as we were born without knowledge of Santa. I would say we were born neutral, that is without a belief in anything. As idea are presented to us we believe or disbelieve them based on a number of factors. Your disbelief in Santa doesn't make you a anti Santaist, it just means you lack a belief in Santa. Otherwise we would need to make up TONS of different categories for people who lack belief in things.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's relevant to scientist. Figuring out how everything happened would be easier then figuring out that God did it. You know why? Because they'd have to figure out God.
So if God is as irrelevant as you say he is, or as your statement makes him out to be, then how do they know it would be harder to figure out he exist?

Because God, by definition, is a supernatural entity, and science is about the study of nature and natural phenomena. Therefore, God cannot be tested for by science because no amount of naturalistic examination or evidence could falsify him since he is, by definition, supernatural.

Also, when did "science" come into this? You just brought science up out of nowhere. We were discussing atheism.

 

[That Dude]

The "claims" I make about Christianity are backed up by the Bible.

No they're not. No where in the bible does it say, " apparently God remains an invisible being all of our lives"
Show me where.

If I stated Christianity didn't change lives, like you have said about islam, then you would have a reason to ask why, but I haven't claimed anything about a religion I know nothing about.

And yet, I just proved you wrong above, when it came to a religion you said you were a part of for 15 years.
“The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you”. John 14:17 (NIV).

So saying that you believe something about Muslims, yet you never hang out with them isn't saying that you don't hang out with Muslims,

I'm afraid I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying, that I said I don't hang out with muslims but meant to say that I do hang out with muslims?
My answer was, that my perspective of muslims comes from general knowledge and what I read about them.
I didn't read anything that describes knowing God before you die.
I hope that clears it up?

yet believe something about them? How is that?

I read their manual. lol

Also, are you telling me that you have studied the Quran? If so then you would read that it does in fact change lives. If you believe something based on what you read, like reading the manual to a plane and assuming it flies, then you should believe that Muslims lives are changed based on what you've read. However, you don't believe that which sort of makes this nonsensical.

Not studied but mostly browsed...
And my point wasn't that muslims lives arent changed, I just don't think they're changed in an instant. My other point is, I don't see where they describe knowing God before they die.

 

[That Dude]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but hope you don't mind if I chime in here. The likelihood that God exists for Atheists is the same likelihood that leprachauns exist for Christians, or anyone else.

How did you come to the conclusion that leprachauns don't exist?

Please be aware this isn't to bash your beliefs, I am showing you, this atheists, point of view without the dogma and rationalizations that exist within a religious belief.

Yet, you acted like you completely missed why I would have been insulted in the first place. Do me a favor. Tell your friends and family that are Christian what you've said here. See the look on their face and pretend you didn't know you were going to insult them after being a Christian yourself for 15 years.
I don't believe in leprechauns for the same reason you don't. (I don't have a reason to) But I do have a reason to believe in God, I've met him and unlike someone who was raised with Christian beliefs I wasnt and didn't become one until I was in my 30's and probably wouldn't be one had I not known for a fact that God exist.

 

[darkendless]

Yet, you acted like you completely missed why I would have been insulted in the first place. Do me a favor. Tell your friends and family that are Christian what you've said here. See the look on their face and pretend you didn't know you were going to insult them after being a Christian yourself for 15 years.
I don't believe in leprechauns for the same reason you don't. (I don't have a reason to) But I do have a reason to believe in God, I've met him and unlike someone who was raised with Christian beliefs I wasnt and didn't become one until I was in my 30's and probably wouldn't be one had I not known for a fact that God exist.

Just because God means something to you doesn't mean it means anything to anyone else. You're just as guilty for insulting us by inferring God.

Do you think we should be allowed to be insulted by your beliefs just as you are by ours?