Saudi school lessons in UK concern government

[Panda]

That's not for you to say. You can't strip citizens out of their identity and kick them out of the country just because you don't like their religion.

You also can not let them impose their religion and their religious laws on others.

Sheesh! Muslim citizens don't have as much rights as you to practice their right to voice their opinion as an act of free speech?

They do but they also have the same restrictions on free speech that the rest of us have and if their religious beliefs are in violations of these laws then that is their problem (obviously different if laws are specifically enacted to prevent a specific religion). The law in question in fact protects religious groups from hate crimes.

What I do not understand though is why would you move to a country who's laws and way of life you do not agree with?

If it is not secular what is it? What religion do "Western" governments follow?

 

[TashaN]

You also can not let them impose their religion and their religious laws on others.

How are they imposing it? Can you give me some examples please?

They do but they also have the same restrictions on free speech that the rest of us have and if their religious beliefs are in violations of these laws then that is their problem (obviously different if laws are specifically enacted to prevent a specific religion). The law in question in fact protects religious groups from hate crimes.

What I do not understand though is why would you move to a country who's laws and way of life you do not agree with?

Is this somehow related to the OP?

The OP states that some English schools are teachings saudi outdated lessons on Shariah laws. Do you think merely teachings aspects of religion is a threat or it will somehow magically change the law of the country?

If it is not secular what is it? What religion do "Western" governments follow?

I have no idea. Maybe it's a religion called self-righteousness.

 

[England my lionheart]

Quote Tashan:

The OP states that some English schools are teachings saudi outdated lessons on Shariah laws. Do you think merely teachings aspects of religion is a threat or it will somehow magically change the law of the country?

Teaching Children something that denigrates either Race Religion or sexuality is illegal here and would be considered as hate speech,really its as simple as that.

 

[TashaN]

Quote Tashan:

The OP states that some English schools are teachings saudi outdated lessons on Shariah laws. Do you think merely teachings aspects of religion is a threat or it will somehow magically change the law of the country?

Teaching Children something that denigrates either Race Religion or sexuality is illegal here and would be considered as hate speech,really its as simple as that.

Fair enough. Sue them and anyone who teach anything about the bible too.

 

[kai]

Fair enough. Sue them and anyone who teach anything about the bible too.

you have a point there!

 

[England my lionheart]

Fair enough. Sue them and anyone who teach anything about the bible too.

If the Bible was to teach that Homosexuals Apostates etc should be killed or denigrates anyone then yes,personally i think we should sue them anyway.

 

[TashaN]

If the Bible was to teach that Homosexuals Apostates etc should be killed or denigrates anyone then yes,personally i think we should sue them anyway.

Cool.

Leviticus 18 and 20

Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus, which form part of the Holiness code, contain the following verses:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.(Leviticus 18:22 KJV)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.(Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

The two verses have traditionally been interpreted by Christians as blanket prohibitions against homosexual acts.
Traditional Jewish sources view these verses as prohibitions against anal sex between males.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality#Leviticus_18_and_20


Now go a head and ban the bible and sue all churches in UK.

 

[beenie]

Then what is the point in sending Prophets if we human beings could do just fine with man-made laws?

Your statement goes against the universality of the message of Islam. most of the western world want to impose or advertise at least their secular systems and values and i don't blame them because these are their values in life. Nevertheless, we Muslims believe in the unseen and we don't necessarily have to understand certain laws in order to enforce them, because we believe in the revelation.

It's alright. No need to apologize sister, and hey, i'm a brother.

oh jeez. :facepalm i didn't know you were a brother.


My dear sister, don't you think that the idea of the separation between religion and other affairs are a pure secular idea?

I don't recall anything in Muslim history which state that there are two types of laws, spiritual and civil. Can you please help me to find some examples since the time of Prophet Mohamed till now of such a thing?

I would really appreciate it.

well there may not be an example of one, but there is no example of a pure Shari'a government either. i'm not so sure our world is ready for a complete Shari'a given our current circumstances. in any government there should be a difference between civil law because we are NOT God.

are you seriously asserting that we should lash and kill homosexuals if they admit they're homosexual in public? putting aside whether we agree with their lifestyle or not, is this what Allah wanted? i don't think so.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Cool.

Leviticus 18 and 20

Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus, which form part of the Holiness code, contain the following verses:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.(Leviticus 18:22 KJV)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.(Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

The two verses have traditionally been interpreted by Christians as blanket prohibitions against homosexual acts.
Traditional Jewish sources view these verses as prohibitions against anal sex between males.


The Bible and homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Now go a head and ban the bible and sue all churches in UK.

But then again, these two cases are not exactly the same. In one case you have things being taught to children which are supposed to be followed, in another case you have embarrassing passages from a part of the Bible very few Christians or Jews read or follow anymore. Show me the Christian school in the UK where children are taught homosexuals ought to be put to death, where children have to list the "reprehensible" characteristics of a minority group, etc. as in the OP -- then you will have a stronger argument. If they did that, then indeed I hope such a school is punished under UK law exactly as the Saudi school. But is that what the Christian schools in the UK are doing?

I went to a Catholic school, those passages are buried somewhere in the Bible and no one thinks children should be taught these things as if they apply today. The school in the OP is sponsored by a country which actually puts these intolerant teachings into bloody practice. They truly believe gays should be put to death and that Jews have reprehensible characteristics which children ought to memorize. I know many very devout Christians, every one of them would consider this intolerant and hateful.

 

[England my lionheart]

Cool.

Leviticus 18 and 20

Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus, which form part of the Holiness code, contain the following verses:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.(Leviticus 18:22 KJV)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.(Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

The two verses have traditionally been interpreted by Christians as blanket prohibitions against homosexual acts.
Traditional Jewish sources view these verses as prohibitions against anal sex between males.


The Bible and homosexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Now go a head and ban the bible and sue all churches in UK.

The Bible isn't the Law here,we are secular so religious outdated Laws are not applicable,what the Bible says about Homosexuals doesn't mean diddly squat here.

 

[Panda]

How are they imposing it? Can you give me some examples please?

The act of teaching the homosexuals should be killed and tha jews are evil.

Is this somehow related to the OP?

Yes. I was saying the OP can been seen as a hate crime. The second part more just general curiosity on my part.

The OP states that some English schools are teachings saudi outdated lessons on Shariah laws. Do you think merely teachings aspects of religion is a threat or it will somehow magically change the law of the country?

It was teaching that certain people should be killed. How can you claim this would not effect the behaviour of the children as well as introducing prejudices.

I have no idea. Maybe it's a religion called self-righteousness.

How exactly is it self-righteous?

 

[TashaN]

well there may not be an example of one, but there is no example of a pure Shari'a government either. i'm not so sure our world is ready for a complete Shari'a given our current circumstances. in any government there should be a difference between civil law because we are NOT God.

I'm really curious, ssainhu, from where did you get the idea that there are two laws, a civil and spiritual one? Is it based on your own reading for the Quran, or based on some sources like scholars, school of thought, etc?

are you seriously asserting that we should lash and kill homosexuals if they admit they're homosexual in public? putting aside whether we agree with their lifestyle or not, is this what Allah wanted? i don't think so.

I really don't know what to do with them, it's up to the court to decide that. How about you? how do you know what God want? what if ALL the respected scholars of Islam condemned sodomy and agreed that it should be punished, whatever the punishment was, will you still disagree? but based on what?

 

[kai]

The Bible isn't the Law here,we are secular so religious outdated Laws are not applicable,what the Bible says about Homosexuals doesn't mean diddly squat here.

Ah but England the Quran isnt the law here either.

Spinkles has it right though no one really takes those passages seriously any more. And if there was a school promoting that point of view i am sure it would be viewed the same as the Islamic ones.

 

[TashaN]

But then again, these two cases are not exactly the same. In one case you have things being taught to children which are supposed to be followed, in another case you have embarrassing passages from a part of the Bible very few Christians or Jews read or follow anymore. Show me the Christian school in the UK where children are taught homosexuals ought to be put to death, where children have to list the "reprehensible" characteristics of a minority group, etc. as in the OP -- then you will have a stronger argument. If they did that, then indeed I hope such a school is punished under UK law exactly as the Saudi school. But is that what the Christian schools in the UK are doing?

I don't live in UK, so i can't answer this question.

I went to a Catholic school, those passages are buried somewhere in the Bible and no one thinks children should be taught these things as if they apply today. The school in the OP is sponsored by a country which actually puts these intolerant teachings into bloody practice. They truly believe gays should be put to death and that Jews have reprehensible characteristics which children ought to memorize. I know many very devout Christians, every one of them would consider this intolerant and hateful.

As i said earlier, the text books being used in these schools were outdated and they are no longer being taught in Saudi schools, and even if it been taught in Saudi Schools, so how that would be relevant to Islam itself, or the opinion of Muslims in UK?

I didn't see these text books and i wouldn't agree myself to teach the students these things as it been explained in the OP.

 

[TashaN]

The Bible isn't the Law here

The Quran is not the law there either. Your point?

 

[TashaN]

The act of teaching the homosexuals should be killed and tha jews are evil.

I didn't see these text books so i don't know what does it say. Does it say Sharia should be implemented in the UK and that Jews are evil? You have read it yourself?

Yes. I was saying the OP can been seen as a hate crime. The second part more just general curiosity on my part.

I really wish if someone could give us passages from that book, because we can't judge it based on just what the media have said. Media is full of projection and exaggeration.

It was teaching that certain people should be killed. How can you claim this would not effect the behaviour of the children as well as introducing prejudices.

I disagree with their methods of teachings and the content and context of these text books and i was just wondering how was what they did would over night change the law in UK from a secular to an Islamic one. Again, we don't know these books and we have not read them.

How exactly is it self-righteous?

You said:
If people move to a country and aren't happy with the laws there why would they move there?

and i answered you saying:
Sheesh! Muslim citizens don't have as much rights as you to practice their right to voice their opinion as an act of free speech?

It seems to me that the West is not secular, after all.

Which you then replied to by saying:
If it is not secular what is it? What religion do "Western" governments follow?

 

[Sahar]

The Quran is not the law there either. Your point?

Great point!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

As i said earlier, the text books being used in these schools were outdated and they are no longer being taught in Saudi schools, and even if it been taught in Saudi Schools, so how that would be relevant to Islam itself, or the opinion of Muslims in UK?

I'm not sure. I was just pointing out the difference between a church which pays zero attention to the nasty parts of Leviticus, and the teachings of the school in the OP.

I didn't see these text books and i wouldn't agree myself to teach the students these things as it been explained in the OP.

Well then, you leave me no choice but to agree with you. Curses!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Sheesh! Muslim citizens don't have as much rights as you to practice their right to voice their opinion as an act of free speech?

What gives you this impression? I didn't notice Panda expressing this view. Should I ask the Muslim Student Association at my college, or the Islamic community center downtown, or the Muslim boys choir I saw singing Islamic songs at the park, whether they have free speech? Ask the people who responded to the thread about what it's like being Muslim in the U.S. if there are special restrictions on Muslim free speech.

 

[beenie]

I'm really curious, ssainhu, from where did you get the idea that there are two laws, a civil and spiritual one? Is it based on your own reading for the Quran, or based on some sources like scholars, school of thought, etc?

they are my thoughts, period. why are you questioning my opinion so much? i am quite literate and i am very capable of having my own opinions; i don't rely on scholars much these days, especially when it comes to these topics. i don't live in a shari'a based country.

I really don't know what to do with them, it's up to the court to decide that. How about you? how do you know what God want? what if ALL the respected scholars of Islam condemned sodomy and agreed that it should be punished, whatever the punishment was, will you still disagree? but based on what?

why do you think a court has to deal with homosexuals at all SO LONG AS THEY'RE NOT HARMING PEOPLE? i don't know what God wants; i asked if YOU think God wants us to punish harmless people.

why do people think we Muslims all have to think exactly alike? the Qur'an has many interpretations, and i have a hard time believing our Prophet would condone about 99.9999% of our behavior these days. we have taken a lot of flexibility and respect for others out of our religion.