My problem with religion.

[Wombat]

My suspicion is that the first and formative religious inculcation is that which occurs in the family-
absorbing the families values, principles, morals and narratives/beliefs. Our family was non practicing, non denominational Christian with strong left leaning political beliefs...social justice was central and essential.
My ‘conversion’ from politics to religion came during the recession of the early 80’s. I was (and remain) a Welfare Worker and lived in an impoverished working class inner suburb of a major city. The much anticipated newly elected Federal Government had clearly failed to provide any effective (promised) reform or enhanced social welfare net and service provision.
Looking around my neighbourhood I could see few if any effective grass roots government agencies but could easily identify-
The Sisters of Mercy, (Catholic) Providing a range of accommodation, good/cheap meals and support.
The Sisters of the Back Streets and Alleyways, (Anglican) Care/support to homeless
The Uniting Church Soup Kitchen, Free food and support.
Salvation Army....and the list goes on...
Over the years and through my work I came to meet and know many people from diverse denominations (including Moslems, Sikhs and Krishna’s) and became familiar with their beliefs.
The paradox (for me) was that it was often the ones with the flakiest and most unappealing doctrine that provided the most embracing and effective sense of community and social services...while those with the most appealing (to me) doctrines and beliefs often weren’t up to doing much if anything at all.
Then...when I got down to the matter/issue of what was ‘spiritual’....I found that those who talked about it most imbued it the least...and those who could recite scripture chapter and verse didn’t seem capable of living out The Golden Rule at even the most basic level.
In short...the most religious struck me as the least spiritual...and the most spiritual (calm, loving, accepting and active) more often turned out to be those who did not speak of religion even if they had one.
Often I would find myself in the company of an alcoholic, disabled, drug addicted, homeless client who radiated and lived a more ‘spiritual’ life than the Priest or SA Major looking after him.
There are many more aspects to this religion/spirituality paradox that still perplex me...but I’ll leave it at that for now.
Rod

 

[Thesavorofpan]

My suspicion is that the first and formative religious inculcation is that which occurs in the family-
absorbing the families values, principles, morals and narratives/beliefs. Our family was non practicing, non denominational Christian with strong left leaning political beliefs...social justice was central and essential.
My ‘conversion’ from politics to religion came during the recession of the early 80’s. I was (and remain) a Welfare Worker and lived in an impoverished working class inner suburb of a major city. The much anticipated newly elected Federal Government had clearly failed to provide any effective (promised) reform or enhanced social welfare net and service provision.
Looking around my neighbourhood I could see few if any effective grass roots government agencies but could easily identify-
The Sisters of Mercy, (Catholic) Providing a range of accommodation, good/cheap meals and support.
The Sisters of the Back Streets and Alleyways, (Anglican) Care/support to homeless
The Uniting Church Soup Kitchen, Free food and support.
Salvation Army....and the list goes on...
Over the years and through my work I came to meet and know many people from diverse denominations (including Moslems, Sikhs and Krishna’s) and became familiar with their beliefs.
The paradox (for me) was that it was often the ones with the flakiest and most unappealing doctrine that provided the most embracing and effective sense of community and social services...while those with the most appealing (to me) doctrines and beliefs often weren’t up to doing much if anything at all.
Then...when I got down to the matter/issue of what was ‘spiritual’....I found that those who talked about it most imbued it the least...and those who could recite scripture chapter and verse didn’t seem capable of living out The Golden Rule at even the most basic level.
In short...the most religious struck me as the least spiritual...and the most spiritual (calm, loving, accepting and active) more often turned out to be those who did not speak of religion even if they had one.
Often I would find myself in the company of an alcoholic, disabled, drug addicted, homeless client who radiated and lived a more ‘spiritual’ life than the Priest or SA Major looking after him.
There are many more aspects to this religion/spirituality paradox that still perplex me...but I’ll leave it at that for now.
Rod

Your going to find hypocrites where ever you go.
The world will always have a slum side because society today can't function without some type of currency.

 

[AxisMundi]

When "charity" is attached to an agenda, it ceases to be charity and becomes that agenda, in this case simple proselytization.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Hypocrisy is everywhere. It's oh-so-easy to be a cynic but much harder to believe in something.

 

[jmvizanko]

Hypocrisy is everywhere. It's oh-so-easy to be a cynic but much harder to believe in something.

Cynicism does not imply nihilism. I'm pretty cynical and idealistic, and I don't see a contradiction there.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Cynicism does not imply nihilism. I'm pretty cynical and idealistic, and I don't see a contradiction there.

Cynicism is kissing-cousins with nihilism, and there is totally a contradiction between being a cynic and being an idealistic. One is posiitve, the other is negative.

 

[BruceDLimber]

When "charity" is attached to an agenda, it ceases to be charity and becomes that agenda, in this case simple proselytization.

Not necessarily, no!

For example, the members of the Baha'i Faith run a soup kitchen in the Pacific Northwest (as I live on the East Coast, I don't know further details of the location).

But the Baha'is are VERY CAREFUL not to force religion on anyone, the more so given that we're explicitly prohibited from proselytization!

So there's always a break of at least a half hour between the time the serving line closes and when the Baha'is present information about the Baha'i Faith to any interested folks, so that somebody who's not interested is fully able--and welcome--to finish eating and leave without hearing the talk!

Thus, it's eminently possible to separate the two!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[arthra]

Often I would find myself in the company of an alcoholic, disabled, drug addicted, homeless client who radiated and lived a more ‘spiritual’ life than the Priest or SA Major looking after him.
There are many more aspects to this religion/spirituality paradox that still perplex me...but I’ll leave it at that for now.

Rod makes a good point! Of course.... the problem is that it gets complicated when we set ourselves up in judging someone else's spirituality.. While a priest or SA major may not appear that spiritual it may be they're just exhausted from having served a lot of people.. or maybe we have ourselves a "jaundiced" eye.. only God knows..

 

[AxisMundi]

Not necessarily, no!

For example, the members of the Baha'i Faith run a soup kitchen in the Pacific Northwest (as I live on the East Coast, I don't know further details of the location).

But the Baha'is are VERY CAREFUL not to force religion on anyone, the more so given that we're explicitly prohibited from proselytization!

So there's always a break of at least a half hour between the time the serving line closes and when the Baha'is present information about the Baha'i Faith to any interested folks, so that somebody who's not interested is fully able--and welcome--to finish eating and leave without hearing the talk!

Thus, it's eminently possible to separate the two!

Peace,

Bruce

Absolutely yes, every time.

When one gives and it is attached to prosetylization efforts, say bible versus in shoe boxes or sermons during soup kitchen hours, it is absolutly is not charity.

Your example would be closer to true charity if NO sermons were given at all.

 

[Wombat]

...the problem is that it gets complicated when we set ourselves up in judging someone else's spirituality.. While a priest or SA major may not appear that spiritual it may be they're just exhausted from having served a lot of people.. or maybe we have ourselves a "jaundiced" eye.. only God knows..

These days my measure of 'spirituality' is down to one commandment-

“Thou shalt not treat others like ****

When I made mention (judgement?) on the ‘Priest/ SA Major’ I was thinking of those I have worked with who breached that commandment every day, week in week out, for years. Espousing religion while treating people like crap.

When I speak of the spirituality of homeless/drug addicted I again have this commandment in mind...because they often tend not to breach it. (Perhaps because they know fullwell what it feels like to be so treated)
I believe this to be the case for a couple of reasons....

1/ The wound is the aperture through which the light of God shines. And it shines both ways- into the person via the wound and out of the person because of the wound.

2/ Community...or ‘True Community’ often arises in response to disaster. In fire, flood, earthquake and war people, often total strangers, will go out of their way or sacrifice themselves to help others. There is often greater compassion and sensitivity to the needs of others in such circumstances and it is this (comradeship) that soldiers miss (not war).

For alcoholics, drug addicts, psych disabled and homeless the ‘disaster’ of relapse is ever pending (Damocles Sword)and as a result the True Community (short lived during/after natural disaster) is often protracted or constant.

Perhaps the bottom line for my judgement/measure of spirituality is- those who live by “Let deeds, not words, be your adorning”
;-)


Rod.

 

[arthra]

“Let deeds, not words, be your adorning”

I think I've heard that before... Who said that?

 

[Wombat]

But the Baha'is are VERY CAREFUL not to force religion on anyone, the more so given that we're explicitly prohibited from proselytization!

Bruce

To quote-
"Not necessarily, no!"

I lay claim to having (along with several other Baha'is) spent an uncomfortable Sunday afternoon (following a 'Deepening') with a member of the Oz NSA who insisted we all go down to the nearby Botanic Park to make 'Cold Contact' with strangers and introduce them to the Baha'i faith.

Five, under pressure, went...I and another declined.

One of many proselytization episodes I could recount.

Rod.

 

[arthra]

To quote-
"Not necessarily, no!"

I lay claim to having (along with several other Baha'is) spent an uncomfortable Sunday afternoon (following a 'Deepening') with a member of the Oz NSA who insisted we all go down to the nearby Botanic Park to make 'Cold Contact' with strangers and introduce them to the Baha'i faith.

Five, under pressure, went...I and another declined.

One of many proselytization episodes I could recount.

Rod.

Yeah.. I wouldn't do that myself..

Did you confront or share your feelings with the guy from OZ? or were you silent? and was that episode what soured you on religion?

 

[Wombat]

Yeah.. I wouldn't do that myself..

Did you confront or share your feelings with the guy from OZ? or were you silent? and was that episode what soured you on religion?

I made clear the reasons for my unwillingness, but he clearly wasn't happy, the push for 'Entry by Troops' was on, still, allways.

Don't recall saying I was "soured on religion"...have stated I have "problem" with many a paradox.......but "soured"?...no....that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Rod.

 

[arthra]

"I made clear the reasons for my unwillingness"

I think that was very important for you to do that..and indicates your willingness to consult. Too many times people don't say anything and silence implies consent.. Good for you!

 

[Midnight Pete]

Not necessarily, no!

For example, the members of the Baha'i Faith run a soup kitchen in the Pacific Northwest (as I live on the East Coast, I don't know further details of the location).

But the Baha'is are VERY CAREFUL not to force religion on anyone, the more so given that we're explicitly prohibited from proselytization!

So there's always a break of at least a half hour between the time the serving line closes and when the Baha'is present information about the Baha'i Faith to any interested folks, so that somebody who's not interested is fully able--and welcome--to finish eating and leave without hearing the talk!

Thus, it's eminently possible to separate the two!

Peace,

Bruce

Good on ya, Bruce!

 

[jmvizanko]

Cynicism is kissing-cousins with nihilism, and there is totally a contradiction between being a cynic and being an idealistic.

How is it a contradiction to be a realist about the unfortunate number of bad people and level of evil in the world, yet still have ideals that you encourage and hope humanity will converge toward through better understanding?

One is posiitve, the other is negative.

Because there aren't both positive and negative things in the world and life...

 

[Muffled]

My suspicion is that the first and formative religious inculcation is that which occurs in the family-
absorbing the families values, principles, morals and narratives/beliefs. Our family was non practicing, non denominational Christian with strong left leaning political beliefs...social justice was central and essential.
My ‘conversion’ from politics to religion came during the recession of the early 80’s. I was (and remain) a Welfare Worker and lived in an impoverished working class inner suburb of a major city. The much anticipated newly elected Federal Government had clearly failed to provide any effective (promised) reform or enhanced social welfare net and service provision.
Looking around my neighbourhood I could see few if any effective grass roots government agencies but could easily identify-
The Sisters of Mercy, (Catholic) Providing a range of accommodation, good/cheap meals and support.
The Sisters of the Back Streets and Alleyways, (Anglican) Care/support to homeless
The Uniting Church Soup Kitchen, Free food and support.
Salvation Army....and the list goes on...
Over the years and through my work I came to meet and know many people from diverse denominations (including Moslems, Sikhs and Krishna’s) and became familiar with their beliefs.
The paradox (for me) was that it was often the ones with the flakiest and most unappealing doctrine that provided the most embracing and effective sense of community and social services...while those with the most appealing (to me) doctrines and beliefs often weren’t up to doing much if anything at all.
Then...when I got down to the matter/issue of what was ‘spiritual’....I found that those who talked about it most imbued it the least...and those who could recite scripture chapter and verse didn’t seem capable of living out The Golden Rule at even the most basic level.
In short...the most religious struck me as the least spiritual...and the most spiritual (calm, loving, accepting and active) more often turned out to be those who did not speak of religion even if they had one.
Often I would find myself in the company of an alcoholic, disabled, drug addicted, homeless client who radiated and lived a more ‘spiritual’ life than the Priest or SA Major looking after him.
There are many more aspects to this religion/spirituality paradox that still perplex me...but I’ll leave it at that for now.
Rod

I still don't know what problem you have with religion.

First of all, God did not ordain a religion for the sole purpose of helping the poor. The first commandment is to love God and the second is to love others. Thus when a woman uses an expensive ointment to anoint Jesus someone took exception saying it could be sold to help the poor but Jesus in effect reiterated the fact that God needed to be loved before the love of others.

Second spiritaulity is not a measure of godliness. The devil is spiritual also.

I have read posts by Buddhists who admit that Buddhism is long on panhandling and short on helping people.

Even Hindus admit that Christians do many good things for the people of India.

 

[Muffled]

Often I would find myself in the company of an alcoholic, disabled, drug addicted, homeless client who radiated and lived a more ‘spiritual’ life than the Priest or SA Major looking after him.
There are many more aspects to this religion/spirituality paradox that still perplex me...but I’ll leave it at that for now.

Rod makes a good point! Of course.... the problem is that it gets complicated when we set ourselves up in judging someone else's spirituality.. While a priest or SA major may not appear that spiritual it may be they're just exhausted from having served a lot of people.. or maybe we have ourselves a "jaundiced" eye.. only God knows..

Why should he who feeds spiritual bread to the spritually hungry be considered inferior to the person who feeds the physically hungry with physical bread>

 

[Muffled]

Absolutely yes, every time.

When one gives and it is attached to prosetylization efforts, say bible versus in shoe boxes or sermons during soup kitchen hours, it is absolutly is not charity.

Your example would be closer to true charity if NO sermons were given at all.

There is an old saying that you can feed a man a fish and the next day he will be hungry but if you teach a man to fish he can feed himself. Many people on the down and out are there because they brought problems on themselves through sin. Bread alone can't save such a person.