How can any true Christian accept an Appointing of a gay bishop ?

[kejos]

Are you serious?!:areyoucra

This seems to be capitulation at the first sign of serious theological opposition.

 

[sojourner]

This seems to be capitulation at the first sign of serious theological opposition.

Capitulation??? I don't think so. I just can't believe you seriously wonder what context has to do with interpretation! Or are you just hoping to be provocative?

 

[kejos]

Capitulation??? I don't think so. I just can't believe you seriously wonder what context has to do with interpretation!

On the contrary- 'context is everything'.

How about this idea? sojourner leaves off the personal pronouns tack, and actually gets down to some proper explanation?

Or is there actually capitulation here?

How does the full theological perspective of the Bible change the 'text-proofing' alleged?

 

[sojourner]

On the contrary- 'context is everything'.

How about this idea? sojourner leaves off the personal pronouns tack, and actually gets down to some proper explanation?

Or is there actually capitulation here?

How does the full theological perspective of the Bible change the 'text-proofing' alleged?

Because the full theological perspective of the Bible inculcates forgiveness, hospitality, mercy, kindness, inclusion.

Even though humanity sinned, God still took care of us, and spared us. Those who, by virtue of birth order (primogeniture) merited no account, were always chosen. Isaac over Ishmael (who was, likewise, spared); Jacob over Esau; Joseph over his older brothers. If God has no truck with sin, why were murderers and idolators chosen to lead God's people home? Why were adulterers, liars and thieves chosen to continue God's covenant? (BTW, aren't thieves, adulterers and liars included in Paul's list?)

The point is that if God can act magnanimously in the lives of these people and, in fact, elevate them to positions of high calling -- in spite of their sin, why should God treat homosexuals any differently?

By your reasoning, Jesus should never have been "Son of God," since he was born into poverty, and since he was a confirmed blasphemer...

 

[Duck]

I know this one. As long as he rails against gay sex, it doesn't matter whether he has it on a regular basis. Cuz, y'know, we're all sinners and subject to the bonds of flesh, especially man-whore flesh. So basically he's Christian, as long as he remains a hypocrite and a liar. But if he were to suddenly start living a life of integrity and love true to his nature as God made him, he would stop being a Christian.

That is so true.

 

[sojourner]

I know this one. As long as he rails against gay sex, it doesn't matter whether he has it on a regular basis. Cuz, y'know, we're all sinners and subject to the bonds of flesh, especially man-whore flesh. So basically he's Christian, as long as he remains a hypocrite and a liar. But if he were to suddenly start living a life of integrity and love true to his nature as God made him, he would stop being a Christian.

And what do we do when we're backed into a corner?
That's right! We get banned.

 

[Duck]

Because the full theological perspective of the Bible inculcates forgiveness, hospitality, mercy, kindness, inclusion.

Even though humanity sinned, God still took care of us, and spared us. Those who, by virtue of birth order (primogeniture) merited no account, were always chosen. Isaac over Ishmael (who was, likewise, spared); Jacob over Esau; Joseph over his older brothers. If God has no truck with sin, why were murderers and idolators chosen to lead God's people home? Why were adulterers, liars and thieves chosen to continue God's covenant? (BTW, aren't thieves, adulterers and liars included in Paul's list?)

The point is that if God can act magnanimously in the lives of these people and, in fact, elevate them to positions of high calling -- in spite of their sin, why should God treat homosexuals any differently?

By your reasoning, Jesus should never have been "Son of God," since he was born into poverty, and since he was a confirmed blasphemer...

Well, obviously, because the right wingers find gay sex to be both oddly compelling and completely icky.

I mean really, the right wingers spend more time railing against (and more money fighting against) gays, gay sex, gay marriage, gay adoption and gay-ole-paree than the gays spend having gay sex. Seriously, the right wingers spend more time thinking about gay sex than gay men do, its no wonder that it is considered to be the one unforgivable sin in modern christianity. I could axe-murder an entire kindergarten class and a puppy, walk into a SBC church with the axe still dripping, claim that the debil made me do it, express my remorse, accept jesus as my savior and be assured that I would be going to heaven as a sinless saint (after my death-penalty execution attended and cheered by fellow congregants) but the gay couple that wants to file income taxes jointly, while running a soup kitchen, half-way house and foster parenting 5 special needs kids are hell bound without recourse, all of course because they love each other instead of pumping out more babies in a loveless marriage to a woman.

 

[kejos]

Because the full theological perspective of the Bible inculcates forgiveness, hospitality, mercy, kindness, inclusion.

With respect, that is precisely half the Biblical perspective- far less than that much, if human heads are counted- "many are called, few are chosen." The mercy of God extends to those who fear him, to those who obey him. To those who do not fear him, who ignore his just demands of humanity for justice and mercy on earth, his punishment awaits.

If God has no truck with sin, why were murderers and idolators chosen to lead God's people home?

They weren't. Those who worshipped the golden calf were put to the sword. The consistent theme of Israel was that disobedience was met with the promised retribution, retribution promised at Sinai. Moses just got faithless, and was not allowed into Canaan. Saul failed to carry out divine commands, and lost out badly. David counted his chickens, and got the due reward.

Why were adulterers, liars and thieves chosen to continue God's covenant?

Which Bible is this from?

(BTW, aren't thieves, adulterers and liars included in Paul's list?)

In his list of those doomed to hell, along with homosexuals, yes.

 

[sojourner]

With respect, that is precisely half the Biblical perspective- far less than that much, if human heads are counted- "many are called, few are chosen." The mercy of God extends to those who fear him, to those who obey him. To those who do not fear him, who ignore his just demands of humanity for justice and mercy on earth, his punishment awaits.

The mercy of God extends to humanity. God so loved the world...

They weren't. Those who worshipped the golden calf were put to the sword. The consistent theme of Israel was that disobedience was met with the promised retribution, retribution promised at Sinai. Moses just got faithless, and was not allowed into Canaan. Saul failed to carry out divine commands, and lost out badly. David counted his chickens, and got the due reward.

Moses was a murderer. Aaron threw the gold into the fire and out came the calf for them to worship.

Which Bible is this from?

Jacob was a liar and a thief. David was an adulterer -- and more.

In his list of those doomed to hell, along with homosexuals, yes.

Hmm. So Eve, Isaac, Jacob, David, Moses, Aaron, the prostitute, the prodigal, and Jesus are all doomed to hell???

 

[Autodidact]

With respect, that is precisely half the Biblical perspective- far less than that much, if human heads are counted- "many are called, few are chosen." The mercy of God extends to those who fear him, to those who obey him. To those who do not fear him, who ignore his just demands of humanity for justice and mercy on earth, his punishment awaits.

I guess you're doomed then--what with being opposed to justice and mercy and everything.

I'm confused though. I thought in your theology all are sinners, and Jesus saves all who repent and accept Him as their savior. Now you seem to be imposing additional requirements, such that hardly anyone gets saved.

Wait, are you a Calvinist?

In his list of those doomed to hell, along with homosexuals, yes.

So basically heaven is like a two-room apartment, and none of the Biblical patriarchs are getting in?

 

[kejos]

The mercy of God extends to humanity. God so loved the world...

'God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but have eternal life.' Jn 3:16-17

'Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather be afraid of God, who can destroy both body and soul in hell.' Mt 10:28 GNB

Moses was a murderer.

But he repented.

Aaron threw the gold into the fire and out came the calf for them to worship.

But he repented.

Jacob was a liar and a thief.

At first.

David was an adulterer

And got severely punished.

-- and more.

And more.

Those who want punishment, who wish to perish alive, be unrepentant homosexuals. Or tell people that homosexuality is acceptable.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Boy this thread died with truth.

 

[Autodidact]

'God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but have eternal life.' Jn 3:16-17

This seems to be the opposite of what you're saying. This seems to say that everyone who believes in Jesus gets saved, including gay people. I don't see any exclusionary clause there.

'Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather be afraid of God, who can destroy both body and soul in hell.' Mt 10:28 GNB

You better start worrying.

Those who want punishment, who wish to perish alive, be unrepentant homosexuals. Or tell people that homosexuality is acceptable.

So basically your religion is all about whether you're gay or not? Everyone is saved except gay people?

btw, I'm still waiting for the part of the Bible prohibiting lesbianism. Since it doesn't exist, where the heck do you get off calling it a sin? Who do you think you are, God?

 

[Duck]

Those who want punishment, who wish to perish alive, be unrepentant homosexuals. Or tell people that homosexuality is acceptable.

So, you are all for the killing of gays then? Cause that is what I get out of this.

How do you feel about the recent bill brought before the Ugandan Parliament? The one known commonly as the 'kill the gays bill'? Supportive of the death penalty for 'unrepentant' gays? Mandatory jail sentences for people that don't report gays to the authorities so the gays can be punished?

Do you support the GOP platforms calling for the secular punishment of people for violating your religious rules? Do these punishments only apply to gays?

Are you willing to work for the criminalization of other things condemned within the bible? When can I expect to attend the execution (or at least trial) of my neighbors really annoying, disobedient, and disrespectful 9 year old? Can I expect to find segregation facilities for women on their periods outside of town, in a major metropolitan area such as New York City, what exactly would qualify as out of town? I mean NYC covers a very large area and would represent a large inconvenience to folks to have to travel outside of town (do suburbs count?) when menstruating, or would you define individual boroughs as a 'town' and set up segregation areas that way?

What about other things acceptible in the bible besides execution for gays? I really need someone to clean my house, would it be inappropriate to use the current troy-ounce price of silver to correlate to a shekel, or should we just use the MONEX rates for modern Isreali currency? I mean, assuming that different states would count as 'surrounding people' I need a manservant, how much for your son? I mean you would be willing to sell him as a bondservant right? I promise not to beat him so much that he dies immediately, instead I will make sure he lingers for 3 or 4 days before he dies. If you really need to, and since I am attracted to men, maybe it would be a better thing, I will accept purchasing your daughter but only if the price is lower than for your son.

 

[Duck]

This seems to be the opposite of what you're saying. This seems to say that everyone who believes in Jesus gets saved, including gay people. I don't see any exclusionary clause there.

You better start worrying.

So basically your religion is all about whether you're gay or not? Everyone is saved except gay people?

btw, I'm still waiting for the part of the Bible prohibiting lesbianism. Since it doesn't exist, where the heck do you get off calling it a sin? Who do you think you are, God?

Yep, like much of modern christianity. Like I said before, the only unforgivable sin is being gay. Unless you feel really bad about it and enter into a marriage with a woman to pump out future tithers. Then you might actually be ok, but only if you feel really really bad.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm am currently barred from sprinkling sparkly frubals about Duck's head and shoulders, as he so richly deserves. For some reason a google image search for frubal brought up this, so I hereby bestow it on you.

Moderator cut: image removed

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yep, like much of modern christianity. Like I said before, the only unforgivable sin is being gay. Unless you feel really bad about it and enter into a marriage with a woman to pump out future tithers. Then you might actually be ok, but only if you feel really really bad.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Those who want punishment, who wish to perish alive, be unrepentant homosexuals. Or tell people that homosexuality is acceptable.

It's telling when you stop discussing something and flatly tell your opponent that he/she is going to hell.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Those who want punishment, who wish to perish alive, be unrepentant homosexuals. Or tell people that homosexuality is acceptable.

Eat my shorts.

 

[kejos]

the recent bill brought before the Ugandan Parliament?

Christians think that appalling, and very disappointing, too, that Uganda has become so unspiritual in half a century. Imposed morality is not the gospel, the following of which is always voluntary, and is usually a minority. It is always pseudo-Christians who attempt to impose their ideas of what is moral behavior on others. They do this because they wish to counterfeit Christianity in order to evade it.

But this thread concerns outsiders to the church (or what passes for the church) attempting to tell Christians what to do, which seems no less objectionable than what the Ugandans are doing, if with less serious physical consequences.