Was Jesus killed on the cross?

[Bowman]

One example. I conceded the example because it didn't matter.

Why posit it if it does not matter?

I listed a handful of other examples, which still stand. I even defended my Lazarus example as showing it was the same as your claim that Muslims use only one verse for a belief of theirs. Maybe you would want to try again.

Let's give you another chance to defend your Lazarus example.

What is the verse, and what Christian doctrine revolves entirely around this one verse?

Good luck on that one...second time around...

So I show my evidence, and because it's on the internet, you dismiss it? There is no logic in that. The fact is, we live in a society where more and more information is becoming available on the internet. One would be a fool not to utilize that information, as it can be, and in many cases is, just as credible as what is found in books. Now, instead of just dodging what the evidence I provided, that supports what I've been saying all along, either show why it is wrong, or concede that you've been beaten. Stop dodging.

I even quized you regarding an excerpt from one of your googled links.

Your reply?

Nothing.

Zero.

You are not even reading what you google, brother.

Complete ownership.

I can defend it all since you've yet to actually debate me. Instead, you dodge the information I give, the responses I give, and the evidence I give. I've provided an argument you've yet to even address. Instead, you dismiss it outright, for no real reason at all. The evidence supports me. Now, maybe instead of dodging what I've said, you may want to take some time to actually defend your case. Because as of now, you have no ground to stand on.

Take debate 101 next semester...

 

[fallingblood]

As you are refusing to actually debate the points I've already made, the evidence I've provided for those points, and the information I've posted, I see there is no need to continue on with this thread.

As to why the Lazarus example didn't matter though, it was simply because I've given a handful of other examples, which you have not, will not, and probably can not refute.

Why I didn't respond to your senseless question about the link I provided? It added nothing. You have not, will not, and probably can not refute the evidence I provided. Instead, you tried to dodge them by shifting the attention.

Finally, I was in debate and student congress in high school. I've taken college level classes on debate. However, even without all of that, I would still be able to see that you are not debating anyone here.

Now, once you actually respond to evidence I've provided, and the points I made quite some time back, I see no need to continue with this thread. It seems like there really are two choices for you. Either continue dodging the information, or pony up and actually debate. I have a feeling the former will happen.

 

[love]

Quote:
Originally Posted by love
Was it a terrible death that He suffered being ridiculed and mocked by the very ones who claimed to be His people's path to God? Yes

Incorrect. It was the Romans who crucified him, not the Jews. The Jews did not crucify people. Jesus committed a crime against Rome and got the punishment that fit the crime.

I did not say the Jews crucified Him. I said they ridiculed Him and even His disiples turned their back on Him saying they did not know Him. The Romans found no fault with Him and crucified Him to keep the peace with the Jewish religious sect.

Quote: posted by love
Had any man opened her thighs before Him? No.

Now this can't be historically proven. It would be considered a miracle, and by definition, is the least likely thing to occur. However, if you want to accept this virgin birth, why not the virgin birth of the Emperor Augustus? He was from the same time and had the same form of story.

Quote: by love
Did He, In His short ministry speak with absolute authority? Yes

Meaning what? He really didn't have a large following. He wasn't important enough to make a large impact during his life to be recorded by anyone. He was just one more failed Messiah.

What would you consider a success? He spoke with absolute authority. His Words of love and forgiveness changed the world forever. Even the winds obeyed His Word. He did not raise large armies to impose His will. His followers were sent out as sheep among the wolves and today they number in the billions.

Quote: by love
Did His passage through our death open the doors for us to get busy living and not worry about dying? Yes

One should not have been worried about death even before that. His death simply signified that he failed. The only difference between him and the numerous other failed Messiahs is that he ended up having a following that eventually wrote about him.

I think men since the begining have wondered and worried about their own mortality. And then you add a little sin and hell fire damnation in to the mix and some people get really concerned. He passed through it, came out the other side, and came back to tell us not to worry He had it covered.

Quote: by love
Those who try to omit "The Sacrifice"try to take away the very foundation of the followers of Christ.
If the One who holds the keys to understanding prays "Father forgive them they know not what they do." sticks up for us even when we are driving nails into His body, most of us shouldn't have any thing to worry about.
But if one has understanding and deliberately leads the flock down the path to destruction they should have plenty to worry about

Or maybe those who are leading the flock down a different path, are leading them more to a historically accurate Jesus and making those individuals much more mature in their belief system.

There are many paths laid out before each of us. I look back in my life and sometimes ask what if I had chosen a different path at some point or another? Would my children as I know them now be different or even exist? The possibilities are mind boggling. I know that this vessel of flesh that carries me through this life will return to the earth. But will my essence that make me different from all other individuals continue or retreat forever into darkness? We must all wait until our journey ends to find out beyond a shadow of doubt.

 

[love]

Woops! I was replying to Fallingblood as if he were a Muslim.
What a dufus.
If I was paying attention I would have known that Muslims believe in the virgin birth. I have deleted my reply concerning the virgin birth.
I hope I have offended no one but Fallingwaters

Just kidding FW . I almost always offend more than one.

 

[fallingblood]

I did not say the Jews crucified Him. I said they ridiculed Him and even His disiples turned their back on Him saying they did not know Him. The Romans found no fault with Him and crucified Him to keep the peace with the Jewish religious sect.

The disciples didn't turn their back on him. Yes, they fled. However, there was nothing they could have done. If they had stayed, they would have been crucified as well. There was supposedly only one disciple who claimed he did not know Jesus, but even then, he repented.

If you look at the Gospels, they don't even agree with the Jews turning on him or ridiculing him. Actually, the opposite is probably true. The main reason we can be sure about this is because we see a gradual evolution of how the Jews are shown to be evil.

The fact is, Pilate would have had no problem killing another failed messiah. He had no problems killing Jews, even if they were innocent. And looking at even what the Bible says, it is very clear that Jesus was in fact a criminal under Roman law, and thus he suffered the death of a criminal. The fact is that Rome would not have succumbed to the pressure of the Jews.

To sum up, Jesus was a criminal and died a criminal death.

What would you consider a success? He spoke with absolute authority. His Words of love and forgiveness changed the world forever. Even the winds obeyed His Word. He did not raise large armies to impose His will. His followers were sent out as sheep among the wolves and today they number in the billions.

First, there is no evidence that the winds would obey his words. Again, that is a miracle, and by definition the least likely thing to occur. If you want to believe something like that though, you might as well believe the many other myths floating about other people during that time.

The fact is, he made very little impact during his time. We know this because there is no a single word written about him until quite some time later. We have evidence of other historical figures, and even other messiahs, but not a single word about him until quite some time later. So we know that he didn't make a very large impact as no one mentions him.

More so, if we look at the history of Christianity, and the Jesus movement, we can see that it really didn't even start to kick off until the second century, and that was the cause of people like Paul. And even many times then, the teachings differed from what Jesus would have taught.

The fact that they number in the billions today means absolutely nothing about Jesus and the original Jesus movement. It simply means that it later caught on, and that is what history shows.

I think men since the begining have wondered and worried about their own mortality. And then you add a little sin and hell fire damnation in to the mix and some people get really concerned. He passed through it, came out the other side, and came back to tell us not to worry He had it covered.

Check out the history of Judaism, and the evolution of the idea of hell. It will go a long way. Jesus died a failure. It was only later that his death gain significance when his followers, because of a need, interpreted his death to mean something else. It was either that or accept that their leader, who claimed to be the messiah, and they followed blindly, died a failure.

If you look at the course of evolution of Christianity, you will see that not all Christians looked at the death of Jesus as modern people do. Paul even states that the death and resurrection of Jesus simply signified the beginning of the general resurrection. We know that Paul was now wrong.

 

[Bowman]

Or the idea that God had Noah fill the ark with 2 of each kind of animal (even though another verse shortly later contradicts that idea)? .

You were given two separate chances to show how your Lazarus example somehow turned into a Christian doctrine...but you failed on both accounts.

So...let's move onto your next example.

Please show me the single solitary Biblical verse and the Christian doctrine that revolves directly around this single verse.

Again....good luck...

 

[fallingblood]

What about the idea that Jesus raise Lazareth from the dead? Or the idea that God had Noah fill the ark with 2 of each kind of animal (even though another verse shortly later contradicts that idea)? That God created Eve from one of Adams ribs? That Jesus was a carpenter? That Jesus could read or even write? That Jesus fled to Egypt? That Jesus taught in the synagogue when he was only 12? A lot of the ideas of Jesus's birth are simply based on a couple of verses even.

Remember this? I posted this a few pages back.

As for the Lazarus example, the theological belief that is presented in that account is that Jesus can raise the dead. I believe that belief is equal to the belief that Muslims have about Jesus.

I'm hoping you will actually continue on with what I posted.


Just an addition to my above list too. The first verse of the Bible. "In the beginning God created the Heaven and Earth."

The fact is, much of Christian theology is based on single attestations. More so, what you haven't realized is that Islam is more of an oral religion. The Quran is part of an oral tradition. There is more than just the Quran though. And the additional writing helps explain and adds to what is in the Quran.

 

[Bowman]

Remember this? I posted this a few pages back.

So...you want to skip your Ark example as well...?

As for the Lazarus example, the theological belief that is presented in that account is that Jesus can raise the dead. I believe that belief is equal to the belief that Muslims have about Jesus.

With which of the eleven Biblical verses do you want to use, brother?

Have you already forgotten that you stated ONE verse...or none!

And no...Lazaraus being raised from the dead is not the basis for any Christian doctrine.

Jesus Himself is.

Try again...

Just an addition to my above list too. The first verse of the Bible. "In the beginning God created the Heaven and Earth."

The fact is, much of Christian theology is based on single attestations.

Creation is not based upon one verse, brother.

More so, what you haven't realized is that Islam is more of an oral religion.

Who cares about islam?

We are discussing what the Koran states.

The Quran is part of an oral tradition.

Once it is written down, it is no longer oral, brother...

There is more than just the Quran though. And the additional writing helps explain and adds to what is in the Quran.

lol....no brother....you cannot use ahadiths...

 

[fallingblood]

So I'm taking your last post as an omission that you can't actually refute what I'm saying. All you are doing is nitpicking in order to dodge the information provided.

But please, do try again, because your last post failed. You refuted absolutely nothing. And actually basically made your own point moot, as Jesus's non-death in the Quran really don't make up any theological doctrine by the definition you are suggesting.

 

[Bowman]

So I'm taking your last post as an omission that you can't actually refute what I'm saying. All you are doing is nitpicking in order to dodge the information provided.

But please, do try again, because your last post failed. You refuted absolutely nothing. And actually basically made your own point moot, as Jesus's non-death in the Quran really don't make up any theological doctrine by the definition you are suggesting.

We are systematically dismantling your 'argument' one salient point at a time...

 

[fallingblood]

We are systematically dismantling your 'argument' one salient point at a time...

And again, more evidence to show that you in fact can't even build an argument against me. Dismantling? You haven't proposed a single rebuttal. Please try again.

 

[Bowman]

So I'm taking your last post as an omission that you can't actually refute what I'm saying. All you are doing is nitpicking in order to dodge the information provided.

But please, do try again, because your last post failed. You refuted absolutely nothing. And actually basically made your own point moot, as Jesus's non-death in the Quran really don't make up any theological doctrine by the definition you are suggesting.

When asked about Jesus’ Crucifixion, Muslims will invariably reference one ayah from the Koran, to support their conviction.

Islam bases an entire doctrine regarding Jesus’ crucifixion & death upon the cross, on a single solitary Koranic ayah.

And in this single solitary ayah, the entire doctrine teeters upon the rendering of a single solitary word (wama) – which Islam has misinterpreted as a negative.


The correct rendering of this ayah is as thus…




وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.


To overcome the Muslim mindset, we need to first define the Arabic word that has been misinterpreted by Islam.

Here is the classic Arabic definition for "ma"...

ما = “ma”

“ma” definition:

Conjunctive pronoun. That; which; that which; whatsoever; what; as; as much; in such a manner as; as much as; as for as; any kind; when; how. Does not, as a rule, refer to reasonable things, but instances to the contrary sometimes occur. It is one of those particles, which, in conditional propositions, govern the verb in the conditional mood; it is frequently a mere expletive. It is also a negative adverb, Not; in general it denies a circumstance either present, or of past, but little remote from the present; it governs the attribute in the accusative, thus it is a negative particle when placed before the perfect as in 53.2; or before a pronoun as in 68.2; or before an demonstrative noun as in 12.31. The particle, when joined to the perfect, denies the past; when joined to the imperfect, the present.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3016
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 2, p. 300
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 523 - 524
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 135 - 136



As we can see below..."ma", when joined to "wa", is simply a filler-word in this ayah...


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



As witnessed by the plethora of positives in this ayah, the conditional mood is only positive.

Couple this, to the very next ayah, as thus…



بل رفعه الله إليه وكان الله عزيزا حكيما

Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman

4.158 But “allah”, he raised Him to him, and “allah” mighty, wise.




4.157 & 4.158 tell us of its most likely Biblical source...


This One given to you by the before-determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you having taken by lawless hands, having crucified Him, you killed Him. But God raised Him up, loosing the throes of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it. (Act 2.23 - 24)


As we can see, 4.157 & 4.158 are simply parroting NT material...


Thus, context is clear that in 4.157 “wama” is simply governing the verb in the conditional mood – which is positive….NOT negative.


Further, rendering this Islamic one-hit-wonder ayah as a negative would force other Koranic ayahs into contradiction

 

[fallingblood]

Answering Qadianis: Jesus (PBUH) did not die according to Quran A detailed explanation on why you're wrong, including the explanations of scholars.

Also, what you miss is that the Hadiths go on to further answer the question of the death of Jesus. You can't simply ignore them.

 

[Bowman]

Answering Qadianis: Jesus (PBUH) did not die according to Quran A detailed explanation on why you're wrong, including the explanations of scholars.

There is absolutely no exegesis performed on your googled website which refutes anything that I presented, brother.

Try again...

Also, what you miss is that the Hadiths go on to further answer the question of the death of Jesus. You can't simply ignore them.

Who cares about ahadith?

You can't even understand the very Koran that you said that you read and studied in Arabic....lol...

 

[fallingblood]

There is absolutely no exegesis performed on your googled website which refutes anything that I presented, brother.

Try again...

Actually there is. It explains why Jesus never died on the cross. Actually, it refutes your whole argument about only one verse being used to support the idea that Jesus didn't die on the cross, as that site shows multiple verses proving the same point. So your entire argument falls through the ground.

So it should be you who should try again.

Who cares about ahadith?

You can't even understand the very Koran that you said that you read and studied in Arabic....lol...

So an unjustified attack? Shows once again you can't debate.

If you understood Islam, you would see that the hadiths are important. You simply can't ignore them when it comes to the Quran. You trying to do so just shows that you are standing on very weak ground and you know that if you did more research, you would see you are wrong.

 

[Bowman]

Actually there is. It explains why Jesus never died on the cross. Actually, it refutes your whole argument about only one verse being used to support the idea that Jesus didn't die on the cross, as that site shows multiple verses proving the same point. So your entire argument falls through the ground.

So it should be you who should try again.

Show us this one verse, brother...

So an unjustified attack? Shows once again you can't debate.

You claimed to have studied the Arabic.

Its painfully clear you have not...

If you understood Islam, you would see that the hadiths are important.
You simply can't ignore them when it comes to the Quran. You trying to do so just shows that you are standing on very weak ground and you know that if you did more research, you would see you are wrong.

This is about the Koran....not islam...not ahadith...

 

[fallingblood]

First, look at the link I provided. It's all there.

Second, you've never shown whether or not I read the Quran in the original Arabic. The fact is, now my Arabic is extremely rusty as I've had no use for it for a number of years as I'm not longer a Muslim, and I find the English just well enough. I also used to read Spanish and French, but now barely understand either. Don't use it, you loose it.

Finally, hadiths are helpful tools in understanding the Quran and therefore are useful in this discussion. To ignore them is to ignore important information.

 

[Bowman]

First, look at the link I provided. It's all there.

Nope.

There is nothing there, brother.

You can do better than to google a link as your pathetic answer.

Second, you've never shown whether or not I read the Quran in the original Arabic. The fact is, now my Arabic is extremely rusty as I've had no use for it for a number of years as I'm not longer a Muslim, and I find the English just well enough. I also used to read Spanish and French, but now barely understand either. Don't use it, you loose it.

I've already quized you numerous times in the Arabic.

You were owned each and every time.

You have nothing.

Finally, hadiths are helpful tools in understanding the Quran and therefore are useful in this discussion. To ignore them is to ignore important information.

Ahadiths are garbage.

What are you going to do now....google us a link and say go there and be refuted...?

rotflol....!

 

[fallingblood]

Again, the link provides everything that is needed. It's not my fault you either don't read it, or dismiss it off hand. That's your problem.

Second, I think you quizzed me once, I told you it was a waste of time, and that was pretty much it. I've also explained why I don't bother with Arabic anymore. You might want to read more carefully from now on.

Finally, you can claim hadiths are garbage, but all you then show is that you don't care to debate. If you understand what a hadith is, then that would go a very long way.

Oh, and you still haven't addressed the majority of what I've stated. Such as how there are a plethora of different Christian beliefs based on one or no verses.

P.S. Just because I know you aren't going to actually do the work, I will quote just a couple of verses showing you have no ground to stand on.

“When Allah said: ‘O Isa , I am to take you in full (mutawaffeeka) and to raise you towards Myself, and to cleanse you of those who disbelieve, and to place those who follow you above those who disbelieve up to the Day of Doom. Then to Me is your return, whereupon I shall judge between you in that over which you have differed.’” (3:55)

The part requiring special consideration is the sentence; “I will take you back (mutawaffeeka) and raise you up to Me.”

And indeed Quran 5:117 also goes on the same lines.

“I have not said to them anything but what You have ordered me to say, that is, ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord‘ and I was a witness over them as long as I was with them. But when You recalled me (tawaffaitani), You were the One watching over them. You are a witness over everything.” (5:117)

A close examination reveals a most important truth: The verb carries a sense that differs from what is normally meant by “to die.” The word translated into English as “to die” comes from the Arabic root waffaa derived from the verb tawaffaa, which does not imply death, but rather taking the soul, or surrender.

Maybe you want to actually start debating now.

 

[Bowman]

Again, the link provides everything that is needed. It's not my fault you either don't read it, or dismiss it off hand. That's your problem.

Here, brother...let's try this again...and expose your utter ignorance of Arabic...

This excerpt is directly from your slavishly googled website.

What word does Mirza Ahmed base his idea upon that Jesus dies a natural death...?

إذ قال الله يعيسى إني متوفيك ورافعك إلي ومطهرك من الذين كفروا وجاعل الذين اتبعوك فوق الذين كفروا إلى يوم القيمة ثم إلي مرجعكم فأحكم بينكم فيما كنتم فيه تختلفون​