Amazing just how many people (like yourself) think that the OT was written in English.
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Was Jesus killed on the cross?
- Thread starter Yaqub
- Start date
Amazing just how many people (like yourself) think that the OT was written in English.
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
The OT was written in English. The Tanakh was written in Hebrew. The oldest translation of the Torah was written in Greek, it's called the Septuagint. Amazing just how many people (like yourself) think that the OT was written in Hebrew.
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fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Would it honestly matter? Now, I don't agree with dogsgod on nearly anything; however, he seems to have a pretty good understanding of the Bible. He may not be able to go to the originals, or the oldest versions of the books of the OT, but that really doesn't matter in this case as the message is still the same for the point he is making.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Why would that be wrong? Should we look at the Bible and see how much of the theology is based on just one verse, or even no verse at all?
The fact is that the Quran clearly states that Jesus did not die on the cross. For the most part, that is what Islam teaches. So yes, in this case, according to the Quran, the Bible is incorrect. And really, you have no position to complain about Muslims dismissing the Bible, as it seems as if you dismiss the Quran.
Here is one more fact; both the Quran and Bible are wrong on many cases. Much of Christianity and Islam is based on single verses, or no verses at all. That is religion. Being a Christian, you have no real ground to stand on with your argument.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Have you read the Arabic? They are not misinterpreted. The verses do in fact contradict the Bible, but the Bible itself contradicts the Bible. Science and history in many aspects contradict the Bible. Christian theology, many times, contradicts the Bible. Contradicting the Bible does not mean that the other account is false.
Also, if you disclaim the Quran, then you have no reason to say much about Muslims disclaiming the Bible. They do say different things. They both do have good messages that can be taken from them. However, both fail to give a very good picture of Jesus.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Why do you discredit the "Holy" Quran? What makes your Bible better than the Quran? Both are said to come from God. Both are "Holy" books. Would it not be possible you are doing the same thing that you accuse Muslims of doing?
Again though, your whole argument is built on very shaky ground. The main reason being that many Christians beliefs are based on one single verse, or in other cases, on no verses at all. Some of the Christian beliefs even contradict the Bible, and more so, contradict the teachings of Jesus. Unless you reject many of Christianity's belief, otherwise you admit that those beliefs, the one that you hold, are simply ludicrous.
Basically, you destroy your entire argument from the get go.
Give me one example, brother.
Nope.
Islam is not the Koran, brother.
Have you read and studied both books in the original languages, brother?
Show me...
The Holy Bible is the source of the Koran, brother.
If you had read both books, then you would already know this...
Show me one Koranic ayah which has the god "allah" stating, in the first-person singular, that it was divinely inspired directly by him.
Good luck.
Show us...
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
What about the idea that Jesus raise Lazareth from the dead? Or the idea that God had Noah fill the ark with 2 of each kind of animal (even though another verse shortly later contradicts that idea)? That God created Eve from one of Adams ribs? That Jesus was a carpenter? That Jesus could read or even write? That Jesus fled to Egypt? That Jesus taught in the synagogue when he was only 12? A lot of the ideas of Jesus's birth are simply based on a couple of verses even.
Just saying nope doesn't make it so. The consensus among scholars is that the Quran states that Jesus did not die on the cross. The Quran even clearly states this, both in English and Arabic.
Never said it was. But Islam is based off of the Quran and thus what they believe does state quite a bit about the Quran, especially when that belief comes directly from the Quran.
Have you? Now I've studied and read the Quran in the original Arabic. I've also studied it in English, and compared the both and thus made notes. More so, I've also studied what scholars have said about the Quran.
For the Bible, I have studied parts of it in the original language. My Greek and Hebrew are very rough though, so I have taken to reading what the scholars have to say about it and comparing that to what I know about the original language.
The Bible is wrong in the case of creation. The Bible is wrong about a global flood. The Bible is wrong about the formation of the nation of Israel. I think three examples are good enough. The idea of the trinity is not fully founded in the Bible as you will not find any verses speaking of it. And I've shown the one verse examples.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
You may want to check your history again. Yes, the Quran definitely borrowed ideas from the Bible, and it even admits that the Bible has some merit. However, to say that the Bible is the complete source of the Quran can not be proven. Especially since there is such huge discrepancies, as in the Quran contains a lot that is not found in the Bible.
I never said that the Quran was directly inspired. I said that it is said to be directly inspired. Even the majority of the books of the Bible do not say they were inspired which is important as they were never intended to be in the Bible, and over time, there have been books that were considered Jewish and Christian scripture that were are not included in the Bible. More so, some of the early collections that would one day form the Bible had many different books in them than we do now.
The fact is, both books are written by humans for humans. If God did inspire them, then he is incompetent.
What about it?
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Did you forget what you requested?
It was your assertion that Christian theology was based upon single verses, and no verses.
Thus...this being your first example, please demonstrate what specific theology is build upon this one verse.
Good luck.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Fine, throw it out. I honestly don't care. But if you have a problem like that, what specific theology is built upon the one verse of the Quran that states Jesus was not crucified? I think it's basically the same.
Pick one of your googled 'scholars' and show his (or her) reasoning.
If you can't do this, then you have a merit-less assertion.
No it does not.
Bring forth the Arabic for a word-by-word rendering of it brother.
If you can't do this, then you have yet another a merit-less assertion.
love
tri-polar optimist
Was Jesus killed on the cross? Yes.
Was it a terrible death that He suffered being ridiculed and mocked by the very ones who claimed to be His people's path to God? Yes
Was Jesus flesh and blood? Yes.
Did He come into the world from between the thighs of a woman? Yes
Had any man opened her thighs before Him? No.
Did Jesus eat, drink, defecate, and stink if He didn't have a bath? Yes
Did He, In His short ministry speak with absolute authority? Yes
Was His spirit directly from and guided by God? Yes
Did His passage through our death open the doors for us to get busy living and not worry about dying? Yes
Did He leave His spirit to guide all those who love and respect their fellow man? Yes
Those who try to omit "The Sacrifice"try to take away the very foundation of the followers of Christ.
If the One who holds the keys to understanding prays "Father forgive them they know not what they do." sticks up for us even when we are driving nails into His body, most of us shouldn't have any thing to worry about.
But if one has understanding and deliberately leads the flock down the path to destruction they should have plenty to worry about
Was it a terrible death that He suffered being ridiculed and mocked by the very ones who claimed to be His people's path to God? Yes
Was Jesus flesh and blood? Yes.
Did He come into the world from between the thighs of a woman? Yes
Had any man opened her thighs before Him? No.
Did Jesus eat, drink, defecate, and stink if He didn't have a bath? Yes
Did He, In His short ministry speak with absolute authority? Yes
Was His spirit directly from and guided by God? Yes
Did His passage through our death open the doors for us to get busy living and not worry about dying? Yes
Did He leave His spirit to guide all those who love and respect their fellow man? Yes
Those who try to omit "The Sacrifice"try to take away the very foundation of the followers of Christ.
If the One who holds the keys to understanding prays "Father forgive them they know not what they do." sticks up for us even when we are driving nails into His body, most of us shouldn't have any thing to worry about.
But if one has understanding and deliberately leads the flock down the path to destruction they should have plenty to worry about
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Are you serious? I don't use Google to find my information. I'm a theology major in school. I have the books. I have the classes. The reason the consensus is this way is because both in the Arabic, and even in the English, it clearly states this.
Have you done any study on this? Word-by-word renderings don't work. That is not how a translation works. Arabic does not translate easily to English. It does not translate perfectly.
Read the Quran. The English is clear enough. If you look at what the scholars are saying, the consensus is what I'm saying. That Jesus did not die on the cross. So the burden of proof is not on me to prove something that is considered basically fact.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Incorrect. It was the Romans who crucified him, not the Jews. The Jews did not crucify people. Jesus committed a crime against Rome and got the punishment that fit the crime.
Now this can't be historically proven. It would be considered a miracle, and by definition, is the least likely thing to occur. However, if you want to accept this virgin birth, why not the virgin birth of the Emperor Augustus? He was from the same time and had the same form of story.
Meaning what? He really didn't have a large following. He wasn't important enough to make a large impact during his life to be recorded by anyone. He was just one more failed Messiah.
One should not have been worried about death even before that. His death simply signified that he failed. The only difference between him and the numerous other failed Messiahs is that he ended up having a following that eventually wrote about him.
Or maybe those who are leading the flock down a different path, are leading them more to a historically accurate Jesus and making those individuals much more mature in their belief system.
Busted.
Your assertion is without merit.
Yes...I have...and yes, it does...
Care to give it a go....'mr. theology major'....?
Busted again, brother.
Come back when you can deliver a answer instead of an excuse...