Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

[darkendless]

Panda,

Not so, public schools are not allowed to teach scriptures of creation, if a pupil responds “ That is the way God created everything in a science test, he is failed, parents that wish to have their children educated in a religious environment send them to a private Catholic/Christian school, a private educational enterprise, they pay the teachers that will do their children education, thus they have all right to set the criteria for employment, that will include the condition that they can teach by knowledge and example.

They are still not allowed to each that.

The only class they teach this is a specific religion class. Evolution is taught in year 10 science.

Correct a Catholic/Christian school needs teachers that can teach Catholic/Christian’s moral values, this must be taught by the scriptures and example, this is what parents want from their school and as they pay for it, they have the right to demand it be so.
People that pay for private health insurances have the right to choose their treating doctors and nurses that will look after them using the criteria they choose to use. BTW as I have said before this is about senior position in a religious organization, those that are seen as representative of the organization. I hope that you get it this time! Janitors?

A lot has changed. This is because 5 years ago, kids going to university and doing science degrees including medicine were failing miserably because they weren't taught science properly. The drop out rate in engineering which is what i'm doing, is about 10% for publiuc school kids and about 25% for private school kids.

You pay for the name of the school, you don't pay for stupid, moronic, backwards beliefs systems to be taught as facts.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No one said i was talking about the entirety of England.

-Q

How about any of England?

Fun fact: Catholics are the only religious group who are barred by law from becoming monarch of Great Britain.

 

[emiliano]

They are still not allowed to each that.
The only class they teach this is a specific religion class. Evolution is taught in year 10 science.
A lot has changed. This is because 5 years ago, kids going to university and doing science degrees including medicine were failing miserably because they weren't taught science properly. The drop out rate in engineering which is what i'm doing, is about 10% for publiuc school kids and about 25% for private school kids.

You pay for the name of the school, you don't pay for stupid, moronic, backwards beliefs systems to be taught as facts.

Darkenless I am talking about Catholic/Christian schools and it seem that you thought of public schools, I am arguing for the rights of private schools to set the criteria for employment of their senior staff, the rights of parents to choose who teaches their son and daughter.

A lot has changed. This is because 5 years ago, kids going to university and doing science degrees including medicine were failing miserably because they weren't taught science properly. The drop out rate in engineering which is what i'm doing, is about 10% for publiuc school kids and about 25% for private school kids.

What changes are you talking about? The church nor the scriptures forbids studying science or medicine, I doubt the veracity of this data, where did you get it? It is well known that private school’s student always do better than public student at university I have lived 39 years in Australia! The last that I know is that in the school grading by performance (Ordered by the government) the private school results led the list and public schools were among the tailenders, the main reason for the universities dropout rate in universities is due to the student perception of what their chosen studies benefits are and the difficulty of some studies. You can do better than that, beside University students drop a course to take another that offers better prospect of employment , higher salaries and is easier, that according to their perception of which one meets their hopes and that varies with time.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There is a problem with wording here

In the UK fee paying (private) schools are called Public schools.
Government/council schools are free. they are often called local council schools ( never Public)

This is historic... Public schools were set up for the general population to use on a fee paying basis.
Gentlemen of worth employed teachers for their children ( and sometimes the children of their relatives) This was known as a private education.

There were very few free schools set up for the general population, but some charities ran schools as did a few towns and even companies.

My own family set up a school for the children of their workers in Ireland. These had to be authorised and inspected by the local authorities.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Darkenless I am talking about Catholic/Christian schools and it seem that you thought of public schools, I am arguing for the rights of private schools to set the criteria for employment of their senior staff, the rights of parents to choose who teaches their son and daughter.

Out of curiosity, do you believe this to be true of any private employer?

Should a butcher shop owner, for instance, be able to decide what religion his staff can and can't be?

 

[Autodidact]

No one said i was talking about the entirety of England.

-Q

Well what were you talking about?

 

[darkendless]

Darkenless I am talking about Catholic/Christian schools and it seem that you thought of public schools, I am arguing for the rights of private schools to set the criteria for employment of their senior staff, the rights of parents to choose who teaches their son and daughter.

I know, i'm saying though that they can't teach what ever they want these days though.

TBH private schools are full of students who go there because their parents wan't a good school on their kids resumes, not for the teaching methods.

It is proven in QLD that although OP's are higher for provate schools, once they get out into the big bad world of university, private school kids struggle.

It should be the right of the government to be able to enforce proper education upon kids. Especially if these kids are expected to make something out of themselves.

What changes are you talking about? The church nor the scriptures forbids studying science or medicine, I doubt the veracity of this data, where did you get it? It is well known that private school’s student always do better than public student at university I have lived 39 years in Australia! The last that I know is that in the school grading by performance (Ordered by the government) the private school results led the list and public schools were among the tailenders, the main reason for the universities dropout rate in universities is due to the student perception of what their chosen studies benefits are and the difficulty of some studies. You can do better than that, beside University students drop a course to take another that offers better prospect of employment , higher salaries and is easier, that according to their perception of which one meets their hopes and that varies with time.

Private schools are regulated as to how much they can teach religiously, what they can teach about religion, and how diverse the religions they teach should be. Kids on the Gold Coast (i work with 3 private school kids) are taught about world religions and not just one.

The reason that private schools do better is because they spoon feed kids information, they don't challenge them nearly enough. Thats why the university drop out rate for high banded courses like engineering, medicine, science, psychology ect are higher amoung private school students.

I know this because i go to university and i talk to the lecturers who have trouble explaining concepts in engineering to private school kids who are used to just being told what things are, instead of having to work it out themselves. Its a big shock.

 

[emiliano]

There is a problem with wording here

In the UK fee paying (private) schools are called Public schools.
Government/council schools are free. they are often called local council schools ( never Public)

This is historic... Public schools were set up for the general population to use on a fee paying basis.
Gentlemen of worth employed teachers for their children ( and sometimes the children of their relatives) This was known as a private education.

There were very few free schools set up for the general population, but some charities ran schools as did a few towns and even companies.

My own family set up a school for the children of their workers in Ireland. These had to be authorised and inspected by the local authorities.

Thanks for the clarifications, this will allow us to address the exchanges better, I was addressing Darkenless that I know as an Australian. I am sure that he understand that the Pope is directing his flock to oppose the inclusion of Catholic and Christian schools in this bill, semantics a part most people understand it as well, Catholic schools and universities are private and that is all the relation to the topic, he is asking for an exclusion on the ground that it is privately owned by the RCC.
Who owns these enterprises?
Is the British government thinking of the nationalisation of the educational system?

 

[emiliano]

Out of curiosity, do you believe this to be true of any private employer?

Should a butcher shop owner, for instance, be able to decide what religion his staff can and can't be?

As I say above these schools and enterprises are privately own.
We have cover this, I am surprise by this “Should a butcher shop owner, for instance, be able to decide what religion his staff can and can't be? What a question is this, are you kidding?
Have your brain taken a holiday? By the way Muslims demand that their butchers be Islamic as if the process involve that the product is touched by non-believes it will not be halal, is the government going to interfere with that?:no:

 

[Panda]

Thanks for the clarifications, this will allow us to address the exchanges better, I was addressing Darkenless that I know as an Australian. I am sure that he understand that the Pope is directing his flock to oppose the inclusion of Catholic and Christian schools in this bill, semantics a part most people understand it as well, Catholic schools and universities are private and that is all the relation to the topic, he is asking for an exclusion on the ground that it is privately owned by the RCC.
Who owns these enterprises?

Why should the RCC get an exclusion that no one else does?

Is the British government thinking of the nationalisation of the educational system?

Most Universities and schools in the UK are nationalised. I think the UK has one private University. Like I have already told you public schools (private) schools are still subject to the same inspections as state schools. They can not teach what ever they want they have to teach students properly.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As I say above these schools and enterprises are privately own.
We have cover this, I am surprise by this “Should a butcher shop owner, for instance, be able to decide what religion his staff can and can't be? What a question is this, are you kidding?
Have your brain taken a holiday?

Nice. :sarcastic I like how you couldn't even manage basic grammar (e.g. the rules of verb tenses and subject-verb agreement) while questioning my intelligence. It was wonderfully ironic.

By the way Muslims demand that their butchers be Islamic as if the process involve that the product is touched by non-believes it will not be halal, is the government going to interfere with that?:no:

You didn't answer the question, and everything I can find about halal practices disagrees with you.

Apparently, to be halal, the person who slaughters the animal has to be a Muslim (or, in some versions, any "person of the Book"). That's only one position, and most butcher shops get the meat delivered already slaughtered anyhow.

Again: Should a butcher shop owner be able to decide what religion his staff can and can't be? Apparently you think that Muslims should be free to hire only Muslims if so desire. What if someone just has a problem with Jews? If it's okay to hire only one religion, is it also okay to exclude one religion from hiring?

 

[emiliano]

[

quote=Panda;2051335]Why should the RCC get an exclusion that no one else does?

Because they are privately own, they offer an education that meets with the parents criteria, that is that they do it in a Christian environment, on the other side of the argument the government can set the criteria of government own schools.

Most Universities and schools in the UK are nationalised. I think the UK has one private University. Like I have already told you public schools (private) schools are still subject to the same inspections as state schools. They can not teach what ever they want they have to teach students properly.

[/quote]

I Google this and you are wrong, there are many Catholic schools and universities in the UK. I am Australian and for what I learned about the British legacy of appealing to the lowest common denominator and nationalisations of the private sector was abandoned long time ago, the reason been that produces lower quality workers and students, the Australian people believes that if you are worth more to a company they will pay you more, there was a time when the trade unions almost ruined the country with this philosophy of appealing to the lowest common denominator, I believe that in the UK there has been a change to go back to private enterprise.

 

[emiliano]

Nice. :sarcastic I like how you couldn't even manage basic grammar (e.g. the rules of verb tenses and subject-verb agreement) while questioning my intelligence. It was wonderfully ironic.


You didn't answer the question, and everything I can find about halal practices disagrees with you.

Apparently, to be halal, the person who slaughters the animal has to be a Muslim (or, in some versions, any "person of the Book"). That's only one position, and most butcher shops get the meat delivered already slaughtered anyhow.

Again: Should a butcher shop owner be able to decide what religion his staff can and can't be? Apparently you think that Muslims should be free to hire only Muslims if so desire. What if someone just has a problem with Jews? If it's okay to hire only one religion, is it also okay to exclude one religion from hiring?

So you didn’t understand the post, well at least you understood that this is an idiotic statement (you answered it)
“Should a butcher shop owner, for instance, be able to decide what religion his staff can and can't be? I was surprise of such a question.
Where do Muslim buy their meat? These butcher shops are own and run by Muslims that hire attendants that are Muslims, at least this is the case in Australia, shopping centres do cater for them and if they advertise it as halal meat there are specifics requirement to satisfy, they generally would not trust non muslins and do not buy from them. Do Muslims trust non Muslims to observe their laws?
The answer to your question is yes, they would do it, because they want their business success. Nobody can force them to hire non Muslims, a small business satisfies their customers specific demands, they offer a product that their client can trust, their clients want an assurance that all persons handling their meat know and believe in their laws. BTW Muslims also send their children to Islamic schools, they also have the right to set the criteria for trusting the school their children attend to, is the government planing to force them to hire homosexuals and known anti Islamic activists?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So you didn’t understand the post, well at least you understood that this is an idiotic statement (you answered it)
“Should a butcher shop owner, for instance, be able to decide what religion his staff can and can't be? I was surprise of such a question.
Where do Muslim buy their meat? These butcher shops are own and run by Muslims that hire attendants that are Muslims, at least this is the case in Australia, shopping centres do cater for them and if they advertise it as halal meat there are specifics requirement to satisfy, they generally would not trust non muslins and do not buy from them. Do Muslims trust non Muslims to observe their laws?
The answer to your question is yes, they would do it, because they want their business success. Nobody can force them to hire non Muslims, a small business satisfies their customers specific demands, they offer a product that their client can trust, their clients want an assurance that all persons handling their meat know and believe in their laws. BTW Muslims also send their children to Islamic schools, they also have the right to set the criteria for trusting the school their children attend to, is the government planing to force them to hire homosexuals and known anti Islamic activists?

In the UK large enterprises are obliged to follow the rules on who they can employ as regards religion, race colour sex etc. Small family businesses can employ who they like.

A friend who runs a restaurant and a small factory producing Halal chilled meals, buys all his sheep directly from the farm. These are slaughtered by his own staff, he even has a resident cleric to supervise and look after the needs of his staff... who are mostly Kashmiri. I am not sure how he selects his staff, but apart from his sister they are all males. The only non Kashmiri is his English accountant. He ( the owner) is a qualified Doctor.

 

[Panda]

Because they are privately own, they offer an education that meets with the parents criteria, that is that they do it in a Christian environment, on the other side of the argument the government can set the criteria of government own schools.

Yes but why are you only letting the RCC have this exemption when all other private companies have to follow it?
Like I said the government set the criteria for all schools. I think the only choice private schools in Scotland get is if they want to teach the Scottish Higher Still system or the English A level system. The school does not set the exam or have any power of what is in each course.

I Google this and you are wrong, there are many Catholic schools and universities in the UK.

You obviously failed at managing to work the internet:

The vast majority of British universities are state financed, with only one private university (the University of Buckingham) where the government does not subsidise the tuition fees.

I am Australian and for what I learned about the British legacy of appealing to the lowest common denominator and nationalisations of the private sector was abandoned long time ago, the reason been that produces lower quality workers and students, the Australian people believes that if you are worth more to a company they will pay you more, there was a time when the trade unions almost ruined the country with this philosophy of appealing to the lowest common denominator, I believe that in the UK there has been a change to go back to private enterprise.

What does any of that have to do with Education?

 

[emiliano]

Panda.

You are getting me more and more confused. You wrote: Yes but why are you only letting the RCC have this exemption when all other private companies have to follow it?

</SPAN>This is because the RCC is a Christian religious institution, we have discussed the rights and the reasons of the existence of specialities small business. Are private schools big business? Is the UK a dictatorship?
Panda wrote.
Like I said the government set the criteria for all schools. I think the only choice private schools in Scotland get is if they want to teach the Scottish Higher Still system or the English A level system. The school does not set the exam or have any power of what is in each course.
Then we are debating in vain, I thought that the OP stated &#8220;Pope Benedict XVI said the legislation "violates natural law" and could end the right of the Catholic Church to ban gay people from senior positions. And the piece is clear that it is a Bill not a law. I researched and find out to only 10% of it could pass, yet you a telling me that this is already the law.

You obviously failed at managing to work the internet:

</I>
I found this in:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_Act_2010#Bishop_opposition

a "Myth Busting" document released by the Government Equalities Office states that that "the Equality Bill will not change the existing legal position regarding churches and employment".[20]
There is lot more information. I took just a passing interest thank to statements like there is but one Catholic university in the UK &#8220;Like I said the government set the criteria for all schools&#8221; I guess you have strong reason to spread misinformation, like they say in country of origin &#8220; it is easier to catch a liar than a crippler &#8220;
Here you can find the way that it will go:
Parliament UK: Bills before Parliament

 

[emiliano]

Panda wrote, What does any of that have to do with Education?
It has to do with this bill attempting to force business (private schools are small business) to hire even those that do not meet the criteria for the job they apply for. The reason you don’t get it is because this is a response to darkenless that said “ A lot has changed. This is because 5 years ago, kids going to university and doing science degrees including medicine were failing miserably because they weren't taught science properly. The drop out rate in engineering which is what i'm doing, is about 10% for publiuc school kids and about 25% for private school kids” he is an Australian that said a falsehood. I went a long way in stating what I know of this country in which I have lived 39 years. The universities dropout rate in universities is due to the student perception of what their chosen studies benefits are and the difficulty of some studies. Why are you answering, he didn’t? I guess that he is thinking so as have a good replay or he just lost interest. In any case here in Australia we don‘t have this kind of troubles the government is a democratic government, they don‘t tell private enterprises who to hire and what criteria to set in place for the selection of their staff.

 

[Panda]

Panda.

</SPAN>This is because the RCC is a Christian religious institution, we have discussed the rights and the reasons of the existence of specialities small business. Are private schools big business? Is the UK a dictatorship?
Panda wrote.
Like I said the government set the criteria for all schools. I think the only choice private schools in Scotland get is if they want to teach the Scottish Higher Still system or the English A level system. The school does not set the exam or have any power of what is in each course.
Then we are debating in vain, I thought that the OP stated “Pope Benedict XVI said the legislation "violates natural law" and could end the right of the Catholic Church to ban gay people from senior positions. And the piece is clear that it is a Bill not a law. I researched and find out to only 10% of it could pass, yet you a telling me that this is already the law.
</I>
I found this in:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_Act_2010#Bishop_opposition

What are you havering about? I said regarding EDUCATION that ALL schools in Scotland MUST TEACH government approved courses. That is either the Scottish Higher Still system or the English A level system. This is not a new thing and has been around for a long time.

 

[Panda]

Panda wrote, What does any of that have to do with Education?
It has to do with this bill attempting to force business (private schools are small business) to hire even those that do not meet the criteria for the job they apply for. The reason you don’t get it is because this is a response to darkenless that said “ A lot has changed. This is because 5 years ago, kids going to university and doing science degrees including medicine were failing miserably because they weren't taught science properly. The drop out rate in engineering which is what i'm doing, is about 10% for publiuc school kids and about 25% for private school kids” he is an Australian that said a falsehood. I went a long way in stating what I know of this country in which I have lived 39 years. The universities dropout rate in universities is due to the student perception of what their chosen studies benefits are and the difficulty of some studies. Why are you answering, he didn’t? I guess that he is thinking so as have a good replay or he just lost interest. In any case here in Australia we don‘t have this kind of troubles the government is a democratic government, they don‘t tell private enterprises who to hire and what criteria to set in place for the selection of their staff.

As for university different people drop out for different reasons. Some drop out because they don't like the course, the university or the area. Others drop out because they can't do it.

What you seem incapable of understanding are that things like religion, sexual orientation, gender are not valid criteria for 99% of the jobs out there. A company does not have the right to discriminate just because they want to.

 

[Duck]

The Catholic Church hires more people than just priests. They've got plenty of lay people in all sorts of jobs. Apparently, they want to make sure that their accountants, janitors, teachers, social workers, etc., etc. are all straight.

Also, the article in the OP quotes the Pope as saying that the Equality Bill "violates natural law", which I take to mean that he thinks anyone should be able to discriminate against homosexual people.

Of course the Catholic church wants to make sure that everyone it employs is straight, they are of the opinion that all of the pedophiles they have sheltered for decades (if not centuries) are actually homosexuals. The Catholic church is also of the opinion that government recognition of same-sex relationships is at least a, if not a more, grave threat to society (and by extension humanity) than environmental destruction (such as seen in deforestation of rain forests in equatorial South America and Africa).

Why anyone with a shred of humanity listens to the Hitler-youth pedophile shelterer at the head of the Catholic church, I can't imagine.