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Causation and a suposed god.

logician

logician

Well-Known Member
If there is no causation, then there is no need for a god;

If there must be causation, then what was the cause of a supposed god?

What say you?
 
Last edited:
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
logician said:
If there is no causation, then there is no need for a god;

If there must be causation, then what was the cause of a supposed god?

What say you?
Click to expand...
It is like the ultimate unanswerable question:
How many licks does it take to get to center of a tootsie roll pop?
​
 
Caladan

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
logician said:
If there is no causation, then there is no need for a god;

If there must be causation, then what was the cause of a supposed god?

What say you?
Click to expand...
Another interesting concept is that the universe is the root from which 'causations' grow into many branches. the universe is and processes grow and manifest from it. the question is, do you search for purpose or final cause. does the universe or natural environment need more than causality or 'purpose' for the sake of growth.
 
fallingblood

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
The question really provides nothing at all. The religious will answer this by saying that God is outside of our understanding. The non-religious will criticize that idea.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
logician said:
If there is no causation, then there is no need for a god;

If there must be causation, then what was the cause of a supposed god?

What say you?
Click to expand...
Why does God need a cause? Are you assuming that either all things must have a cause or their is no cause at all?
 
Baydwin

Baydwin

Well-Known Member
logician said:
If there is no causation, then there is no need for a god;

If there must be causation, then what was the cause of a supposed god?

What say you?
Click to expand...
Cause and effect is a phenomena within our universe, it doesn't necessarily follow that it applies to entities beyond.
Anyway, I know you believe in the multiverse which is full of causation.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Baydwin said:
Cause and effect is a phenomena within our universe, it doesn't necessarily follow that it applies to entities beyond.
Anyway, I know you believe in the multiverse which is full of causation.
Click to expand...
It seems to be a common flaw to believe that things outside this universe behave the same as things in it.
 
Karl R

Karl R

Active Member
logician said:
If there is no causation, then there is no need for a god;
Click to expand...
I would say that the universe existed before logician was conceived and the universe will continue to exist after logician is gone. In fact, the universe would have existed this entire time even if logician had never been conceived.

Since there is clearly no need for logician to exist, does that mean that logician doesn't exist?
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Karl R said:
I would say that the universe existed before logician was conceived and the universe will continue to exist after logician is gone. In fact, the universe would have existed this entire time even if logician had never been conceived.

Since there is clearly no need for logician to exist, does that mean that logician doesn't exist?
Click to expand...
Wasn't the question whether Logician has a cause?
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
sandy whitelinger said:
Why does God need a cause?
Click to expand...
The argument is that because of the complexity of the universe, there has to be a cause for said complexity.
The cause for said complexity is supposed to be God.
Yet that rule is tossed out the window when applied to God.

sandy whitelinger said:
Are you assuming that either all things must have a cause or their is no cause at all?
Click to expand...
No, that assumption is made by the one who claims that the complexity had to come from God.
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
sandy whitelinger said:
It seems to be a common flaw to believe that things outside this universe behave the same as things in it.
Click to expand...
Seems to be an even more common flaw to make completely unsubstantiated claims of beings that supposedly exist outside this universe.
 
logician

logician

Well-Known Member
Baydwin said:
Cause and effect is a phenomena within our universe, it doesn't necessarily follow that it applies to entities beyond.
Anyway, I know you believe in the multiverse which is full of causation.
Click to expand...

I'm talking aout original causation, i.e. did somthing "Cause" the multiverse to begin.

I suggest no, it has existed forever in one phase or another, with no original causative mechanism.
 
Zadok

Zadok

Zadok
logician said:
I tend towards the "no causation" thought, i.e. matter and energy have existed forever, with no need for a supposed god to tinker around.
Click to expand...

Actually the fact that we can conceive of tinkering around with matter and energy is the foundation of scientific and other kinds of knowledge. If we can tinker with such things – is it not unreasonable to imagine and consider that someone smarter than us could do with such things on a proportionately larger or longer scale?

If man can evolve in this universe with how long this universe has existed – what greater beings could evolve if we but think outside the little box that this universe is; in what we imagine as forever and ever?


Zadok
 
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