• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Here ya' go creationists...everything you wanted

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
We're all familiar with the creationists' mantras, "No transitional fossils", "The fossil record doesn't show Darwinism", "The fossil record supports creation more than evolution"...blah, blah, blah. And sure, whenever we go through the trouble of providing examples of transitional fossils, the creationists generally ignore them.

Well, recently I became aware of a long-term study that in a sane world, should put an end to the whole "no transitional fossils" crapola from creationists.

Evolution at Sea: Complete Fossil Record from the Ocean Upholds Darwin's Gradualism Theories

In recent years, however, scientists began revisiting the oceans, curious about how certain sea fossils fit models of evolutionary theory synthesized almost entirely from scattered, often puzzling evidence recovered from dry land. Some intriguing results turned up recently in the laboratories of two Florida State University (FSU) marine paleontologists.

Tony Arnold and Bill Parker compiled what may be the largest, most complete set of data on the evolutionary history of any group of organisms, marine or otherwise. The two scientists amassed something that their land-based colleagues only dreamed about: An intact fossil record with no missing links.

"It's all here--a virtually complete evolutionary record," says Arnold. "There are other good examples, but this is by far the best. We're seeing the whole picture of how this group of organisms has changed throughout most of its existence on Earth."

The organism that Arnold and Parker study is a single-celled, microscopic animal belonging to the Foraminiferida, an order of hard-shelled, planktonic marine protozoans...

...The species collection also is exceptionally well-preserved, which accounts largely for the excitement shared by Parker and Arnold. "Most fossils, particularly those of the vertebrates, are fragmented--just odds and ends," says Parker. "But these fossils are almost perfectly preserved, despite being millions of years old."

By being so small, the fossil shells escaped nature's grinding and crushing forces, which ovet the eons have in fact destroyed most evidence of life on Earth. The extraordinary condition of the shells permits the paleontologists to study in detail not only how a whole species develops, but how individual animals develop from birth to adulthood...

...Darwin termed the process gradualism, a theory that invokes the slow accumulation of small evolutionary changes over a large period of time, as a result of the pressures of natural selection. What Arnold and Parker found is almost a textbook example of gradualism at work.

We've literally seen hundreds of speciation events," syas Arnold. "This allows us to check for patterns, to determine what exactly is going on. We can quickly tell whether something is a recurring phenomenon--a pattern--or whether it's just an anomally. This way, we cannot only look for the same things that have been observed in living organisms, but we can see just how often these things really happen in the environment over an enormous period of time...

...Transitional forms between species are readily apparent, making it relatively easy to track ancestor species to their descendents. In short, the finding upholds Darwin's lifelong conviction that "nature does not proceed in leaps," but rather is a system prepetually unfolding in extreme slow motion...

<more at link>​

Of course, I harbor no illusions that this will have any impact on any creationist. It will however be interesting to observe the different excuses they craft to try and wave away this data and pretend it doesn't exist. But at the very least, hopefully this will give a lot of you something to quickly refer to upon seeing a creationist shout "No transitional fossils".

As I said, if this were a sane world, this data would put a definitive end to any arguments over whether transitional fossils exist or whether gradualism is ever observed in the fossil record. But since we're dealing with creationism, sanity is not the format we're working in.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I've noticed they usually avoid these types of threads. Can't very well keep insisting there's no convincing evidence if you go around looking at the evidence, can you.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Show me a bird that gives birth to a dog.
400_F_2783546_nbyU9fxcQE1uQD1XhMeJ7z9WBzeIbl.jpg


How about a dog diving birth to birds;)
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
That's it? I'm embarressed for you. It's not only creationists that are saying the fossil record lacks the evidence, it is scientists that believe in evolution also that are saying it.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
LOL! I love it. Show a creationist a study of a complete fossil record that shows gradual evolution, multiple speciation events, and transitions galore and the creationist responds, "So there's no evidence eh?"

In other news, black is white, up is down, and the sky is plaid.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
So I wonder what the creationist interpretation of this data is. Did God create species A, destroy it, create a similar species B, destroy it, create a similar species C, destroy it, etc.?

Is this evidence of God going, "There...oops, no that's not quite right. Erase. There...oops, that's not quite right either. Erase. There...dang it!!!"
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
MoF: can you explain how this data is not consistent with ToE? Or how it is consistent with your hypothesis, whatever that may be?
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
We're all familiar with the creationists' mantras, "No transitional fossils", "The fossil record doesn't show Darwinism", "The fossil record supports creation more than evolution"...blah, blah, blah. And sure, whenever we go through the trouble of providing examples of transitional fossils, the creationists generally ignore them.

Well, recently I became aware of a long-term study that in a sane world, should put an end to the whole "no transitional fossils" crapola from creationists.
Evolution at Sea: Complete Fossil Record from the Ocean Upholds Darwin's Gradualism Theories

In recent years, however, scientists began revisiting the oceans, curious about how certain sea fossils fit models of evolutionary theory synthesized almost entirely from scattered, often puzzling evidence recovered from dry land. Some intriguing results turned up recently in the laboratories of two Florida State University (FSU) marine paleontologists.

Tony Arnold and Bill Parker compiled what may be the largest, most complete set of data on the evolutionary history of any group of organisms, marine or otherwise. The two scientists amassed something that their land-based colleagues only dreamed about: An intact fossil record with no missing links.

"It's all here--a virtually complete evolutionary record," says Arnold. "There are other good examples, but this is by far the best. We're seeing the whole picture of how this group of organisms has changed throughout most of its existence on Earth."

The organism that Arnold and Parker study is a single-celled, microscopic animal belonging to the Foraminiferida, an order of hard-shelled, planktonic marine protozoans...

...The species collection also is exceptionally well-preserved, which accounts largely for the excitement shared by Parker and Arnold. "Most fossils, particularly those of the vertebrates, are fragmented--just odds and ends," says Parker. "But these fossils are almost perfectly preserved, despite being millions of years old."

By being so small, the fossil shells escaped nature's grinding and crushing forces, which ovet the eons have in fact destroyed most evidence of life on Earth. The extraordinary condition of the shells permits the paleontologists to study in detail not only how a whole species develops, but how individual animals develop from birth to adulthood...

...Darwin termed the process gradualism, a theory that invokes the slow accumulation of small evolutionary changes over a large period of time, as a result of the pressures of natural selection. What Arnold and Parker found is almost a textbook example of gradualism at work.

We've literally seen hundreds of speciation events," syas Arnold. "This allows us to check for patterns, to determine what exactly is going on. We can quickly tell whether something is a recurring phenomenon--a pattern--or whether it's just an anomally. This way, we cannot only look for the same things that have been observed in living organisms, but we can see just how often these things really happen in the environment over an enormous period of time...

...Transitional forms between species are readily apparent, making it relatively easy to track ancestor species to their descendents. In short, the finding upholds Darwin's lifelong conviction that "nature does not proceed in leaps," but rather is a system prepetually unfolding in extreme slow motion...

<more at link>
Of course, I harbor no illusions that this will have any impact on any creationist. It will however be interesting to observe the different excuses they craft to try and wave away this data and pretend it doesn't exist. But at the very least, hopefully this will give a lot of you something to quickly refer to upon seeing a creationist shout "No transitional fossils".

As I said, if this were a sane world, this data would put a definitive end to any arguments over whether transitional fossils exist or whether gradualism is ever observed in the fossil record. But since we're dealing with creationism, sanity is not the format we're working in.

Firstly, Darwin was not a scientist. He never really practiced scientific method. He saw some finches, noted differences and thought up a hypothesis (which he likely didn't even dream up himself).

Secondly, given the fully functional intricacies of all organisms, there simply isn't enough time in the Cosmos for the supposed earliest lifeforms to have developed, let alone transform into us...
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Firstly, Darwin was not a scientist. He never really practiced scientific method. He saw some finches, noted differences and thought up a hypothesis (which he likely didn't even dream up himself).
Yes, he was. And yes, he did.
However your attack on Darwins character does not eradicate the overwhelming empirical evidence of evolution.

Secondly, given the fully functional intricacies of all organisms, there simply isn't enough time in the Cosmos for the supposed earliest lifeforms to have developed, let alone transform into us...
Incorrect. Unless you hold to the entirely pseudoscientific notion of a 6,000 to 10,000 yr old earth.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
So I wonder what the creationist interpretation of this data is. Did God create species A, destroy it, create a similar species B, destroy it, create a similar species C, destroy it, etc.?

Is this evidence of God going, "There...oops, no that's not quite right. Erase. There...oops, that's not quite right either. Erase. There...dang it!!!"

GOD created specific kinds. These kinds have wide variability within strict limits. Example: cattle, horses, cats, dogs, beetles, spiders, ants, frogs, sheep, crabs, whales, shrimp, sharks, monkeys, apes, and humans.

Now, humanity is a kind. The Bible is clear in that. There are very tall humans and very short humans. There are very light complexioned humans and very ruddy humans. There are very smart humans and those that think they are smart. There are very hairy humans and hairless humans. But they are all human. They were always human, and they always will be human. The range simply illustrates the uniqueness of GOD. Every living organism that ever lived and will ever live will be unique in some way, but each organism will never shift out of its kind to establish another kind.
 
Last edited:

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Yes, he was. And yes, he did.
However your attack on Darwins character does not eradicate the overwhelming empirical evidence of evolution.


Incorrect. Unless you hold to the entirely pseudoscientific notion of a 6,000 to 10,000 yr old earth.

The earth only needs to be 6000 to 10000 years old given the fact that GOD designed and created everything ---- you've proven nothing to support evolution mathematically.

Charles Darwin was didn't do well in medical school and became a geologist. Charles Darwin got his inspiration from Alfred Wallace for evolution.
 

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
Here's a thought...

For those who don't accept scientific facts like evolution, it should be required that the forfeit the benefits of scientific advancements as well.

No vaccines... no protection against polio, diphtheria, tetanus, measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, flu, hepatitus, etc.

No insulin, penicillin, antibiotics, medicines, pain killers, vitamin supplements of any kind.

No X rays, CT scans, MRIs, artificial implants, pace makers, joint replacements, organ transplants or operations of any kind.

And on the non-medical front, no technology of any kind, including automobiles, air transportation, communication equipment like telephones, radios, TVs, house hold appliances, and especially no computers or internet access.

If you deny scientific facts, you should also deny yourself the benefits of the very thing you so desperately try to undermine with your faith-blinded worldview and intentional scientific ignorance.

Science has helped stupid people survive for much too long... I think the herd would benefit from a little "culling".

IMO :D

BTW.. I think we could make an exception for birth control advancements... but the problem is, that's the one thing they don't want.
 
Last edited:

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
All we are looking at are varieties of the same type of organism. If scientists want to call them new species that's fine but they are the same type of organisms.

There are 30,000 species of butterflies, what does that prove? That proves evolution within types is all. Creationists accept that.
 
Top