There is no [compassionate] God.

[djewleu]

I've seen it three times in recent years: There is no compassionate God.
Three of several of my friends have died in terribly agonizing circumstances;
in terrible pain and dishonour, with no human dignity.
Cancer is a very cruel disease, determined to kill you by intense suffering.
Is it all that necessary to die?
I repeat: there is no compassionate God!

 

[Riverwolf]

The Supreme Reality (call it whatever you want) works in odd ways. I don't know if it's conscious or not, but I can tell you this: it does not embody any one attribute. Just as humans have several attributes (we can be cruel and compassionate at the same time), how much more so is the Supreme Reality?

However, I am sorry for your friends. But why complain to God about it? After all, you don't believe in God, therefore the argument already falls flat on its face.

Without Death, there cannot be Life. If our bodies didn't die on their own, there would be FAR greater pain, and there'd be a surplus of people, unless there wasn't any sex, and therefore no genders, and therefore... stagnation, which could be worse than death. Think about this: when you're dying in terrible agony from cancer, which is better: to die or to live?

By the way, I notice you use the terms "human dignity" and "dishonor." Are you of Warrior blood? You're passionate enough, for sure.

 

[imaginaryme]

But there are compassionate people. We don't "lose" loved ones for as long as there is love; but they lose their suffering.

 

[cottage]

The Supreme Reality (call it whatever you want) works in odd ways. I don't know if it's conscious or not, but I can tell you this: it does not embody any one attribute. Just as humans have several attributes (we can be cruel and compassionate at the same time), how much more so is the Supreme Reality?

I guess that's a perfectly adequate answer, if the question was 'Why is there suffering.' But of course we're addressing the assertion that there is no compassionate God, and on the face of it that assertion seems to be correct. Now, just as you say, humans can be both cruel and compassionate, but if God has compassion as one of his necessary attributes then that is what is must be. We don't contradict ourselves in any way when we say 'humans are cruel and compassionate', but it cannot logically be the case that a compassionate God isn't compassionate.

However, I am sorry for your friends. But why complain to God about it? After all, you don't believe in God, therefore the argument already falls flat on its face.

But surely it is a conclusion as part of an argument, or a simple observation, rather than a complaint? One doesn't need to believe in God in order to argue the concept.

Without Death, there cannot be Life. If our bodies didn't die on their own, there would be FAR greater pain, and there'd be a surplus of people, unless there wasn't any sex, and therefore no genders, and therefore... stagnation, which could be worse than death. Think about this: when you're dying in terrible agony from cancer, which is better: to die or to live?

That has to be a fairly accurate summary. However, that explanation doesn't let God off the hook if (and only if) he is benevolent and all loving.

 

[Thief]

I've seen it three times in recent years: There is no compassionate God.
Three of several of my friends have died in terribly agonizing circumstances;
in terrible pain and dishonour, with no human dignity.
Cancer is a very cruel disease, determined to kill you by intense suffering.
Is it all that necessary to die?
I repeat: there is no compassionate God!

Can imagine a planet wherein no one dies?

There are 6billion people on this earth now.
Only 3billion, forty years ago.

If I live to the age of my dearly departed grandfather...
there will be 12billion people on this earth.

Of course you're going to die.
One of two possibilities....
Prematurely...as by accident.
Or....some disease will eat at you until you can't take it anymore.

Either way...your going.
Are you ready?
Doesn't seem like it.

 

[Riverwolf]

I guess that's a perfectly adequate answer, if the question was 'Why is there suffering.' But of course we're addressing the assertion that there is no compassionate God, and on the face of it that assertion seems to be correct. Now, just as you say, humans can be both cruel and compassionate, but if God has compassion as one of his necessary attributes then that is what is must be. We don't contradict ourselves in any way when we say 'humans are cruel and compassionate', but it cannot logically be the case that a compassionate God isn't compassionate.

Why not?

But surely it is a conclusion as part of an argument, or a simple observation, rather than a complaint? One doesn't need to believe in God in order to argue the concept.

Of course not. But I don't see a very well-founded argument here.

That has to be a fairly accurate summary. However, that explanation doesn't let God off the hook if (and only if) he is benevolent and all loving.

If those were God's only attributes, then, yes, it would not. It also would not if God were a separate being from us.

 

[cottage]

Why not?

Because he cannot both be and not be a thing. Like a human he can of course be sometimes compassionate, sometimes not, but then he will not be a compassionate God.

Of course not. But I don't see a very well-founded argument here.

I think the case is made by logical and evidential arguments. The logical argument is that if God is all benevolent then there can be no suffering, and the evidential argument gives innumerable instances of suffering in experience. The conclusion that follows is a valid and reasonable one.

If those were God's only attributes, then, yes, it would not. It also would not if God were a separate being from us.

But he cannot have contradictory qualities. And if he was not immanent, but completely outside the world of cause and effect, then the terms 'benevolent' and 'all loving' would in that case be meaningless. Surely.

 

[Storm]

I think the case is made by logical and evidential arguments. The logical argument is that if God is all benevolent then there can be no suffering, and the evidential argument gives innumerable instances of suffering in experience. The conclusion that follows is a valid and reasonable one.

Except that argument isn't iron-clad. There are valid rebuttals.

Anyway, there most certainly are compassionate God-concepts, and they're no more falsifiable than any other.

 

[Riverwolf]

Because he cannot both be and not be a thing. Like a human he can of course be sometimes compassionate, sometimes not, but then he will not be a compassionate God.

I still don't get it. Humans can be two things at the same time; how can this not apply to God?

I think the case is made by logical and evidential arguments. The logical argument is that if God is all benevolent then there can be no suffering, and the evidential argument gives innumerable instances of suffering in experience. The conclusion that follows is a valid and reasonable one.

Hence the logical fallacy of "all benevolent" being attributed to God. I never disagreed with that.

But he cannot have contradictory qualities. And if he was not immanent, but completely outside the world of cause and effect, then the terms 'benevolent' and 'all loving' would in that case be meaningless. Surely.

Surely, except, as a Sage once noted, God cannot separate Himself from us. Therefore, as the world is full of paradoxes, as is God.

Tell me: when a white light hits a prism, what happens?

 

[cottage]

Except that argument isn't iron-clad. There are valid rebuttals.

Anyway, there most certainly are compassionate God-concepts, and they're no more falsifiable than any other.

We shouldn't infer from what I wrote that God cannot be compassionate. If we assume for the sake of argument that 'God is exists' is true, then the statement 'God is benevolent' can be falsified because suffering exits. But why should it ever be imagined that God (again assuming existence) must be all compassionate and loving? And with that in mind, the statement 'God is sometimes compassionate, sometimes not' makes perfect sense because no contradiction is evident and it fits perfectly with what we see in experience.

 

[Storm]

We shouldn't infer from what I wrote that God cannot be compassionate.

OK.

If we assume for the sake of argument that 'God is exists' is true, then the statement 'God is benevolent' can be falsified because suffering exits.

See, I don't think it can. I tend to favor the idea that suffering benefits us, and is thus allowed by Godly wisdom (assuming theism).

But why should it ever be imagined that God (again assuming existence) must be all compassionate and loving? And with that in mind, the statement 'God is sometimes compassionate, sometimes not' makes perfect sense because no contradiction is evident and it fits perfectly with what we see in experience.

That's one fair perspective. I presented another above.

 

[Charity]

I've seen it three times in recent years: There is no compassionate God.
Three of several of my friends have died in terribly agonizing circumstances;
in terrible pain and dishonour, with no human dignity.
Cancer is a very cruel disease, determined to kill you by intense suffering.
Is it all that necessary to die?
I repeat: there is no compassionate God!

I lost my husband to esophageal cancer and watched him deterioriate into nothing but skin and bones. I found God to be compassionate, comforting and faithful.

He didn't say everything would always be perfect but he said He would be there with me. When your on the mountain top and everything is fine you think you can soar with the eagles, but when your down in a valley facing the mountain its then that you need strength for the climb. God made that climb with me, I came through and it increased my faith.

I'm sorry that your experiences have not been the same as mine.
The morning of my husband's funeral I prayed" How do you say goodbye to someone you have spent all these years with?" In my spirit the answer came...."Don't say goodbye, say goodnight". For our loved ones are only sleeping and remember weeping may endure for the night but joy comes in the morning.......
I'm sure you will not understand but I had to share this with you.....

 

[cottage]

I still don't get it. Humans can be two things at the same time; how can this not apply to God?

Well of course even humans cannot be two things at the same time. We can be angry and we can be happy, but while we're being angry we're not being happy. But God is immutable and necessary. He cannot not be what he is. If he is compassionate, then there isn't a single instant when he isn't such, in the same way that he cannot not be the Creator.

Hence the logical fallacy of "all benevolent" being attributed to God. I never disagreed with that.

Then we're in agreement that there is no necessarily compassionate God.

Surely, except, as a Sage once noted, God cannot separate Himself from us. Therefore, as the world is full of paradoxes, as is God.

The world is full of paradoxes because it is material contingent and finite.

Tell me: when a white light hits a prism, what happens? [/quote]

It emits coloured light by means of refraction, the light's wavelength isn' it?

 

[Riverwolf]

Well of course even humans cannot be two things at the same time. We can be angry and we can be happy, but while we're being angry we're not being happy. But God is immutable and necessary. He cannot not be what he is. If he is compassionate, then there isn't a single instant when he isn't such, in the same way that he cannot not be the Creator.

Again, that can only be if God is a separate being with only a single attribute. With this logic, if God is compassionate, he cannot be a Creator.

Then we're in agreement that there is no necessarily compassionate God.

That God isn't all-compassionate. However, I believe in a multi-attribute God.

The world is full of paradoxes because it is material contingent and finite.

Oh, IT is not. Our perception of it is. The world is not how we perceive it.

It emits coloured light by means of refraction, the light's wavelength isn' it?

Nothing happens to the light; it remains white. However, to our eyes, it becomes many colors.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not everyone calls there god a compassionate one. And then some of us believe that "god" doesn't play much of a role in the lives on humans.

 

[cottage]

I lost my husband to esophageal cancer and watched him deterioriate into nothing but skin and bones. I found God to be compassionate, comforting and faithful.

He didn't say everything would always be perfect but he said He would be there with me. When your on the mountain top and everything is fine you think you can soar with the eagles, but when your down in a valley facing the mountain its then that you need strength for the climb. God made that climb with me, I came through and it increased my faith.

I'm sorry that your experiences have not been the same as mine.
The morning of my husband's funeral I prayed" How do you say goodbye to someone you have spent all these years with?" In my spirit the answer came...."Don't say goodbye, say goodnight". For our loved ones are only sleeping and remember weeping may endure for the night but joy comes in the morning.......
I'm sure you will not understand but I had to share this with you.....

That is a very moving account, and you have my condolences. I once worked on a helpline, and took a call from a young man who had just lost his father. The young man (who I shall call ‘John') was trying to come to terms with the death of his father. He spoke with an engaging frankness about his loss and the terrible numbness that he felt, the shock, disbelief and a whole range of conflicting emotions.

Anyone who loses somebody, which of course means all of us at some stage in our lives, will know what John meant. He asked how can it be that a person who was so real and such a part of his life could be taken from him in a way that is so cruel and so final? You can never prepare yourself, he said, for the vicious blow that knocks the stuffing out of you and turns lives upside down. The overwhelming and immediate sense of loss is made worse by the unbearable thought of never seeing the loved one again. It is the seemingly impossible concept of nothingness, replacing the warm smile and familiar features that is so unbearable.

Now I'm a religious sceptic, an atheist, but I recognise that such is the inestimable power and enduring nature of the human spirit, it seems almost absurd to think of those who by their very existence have contributed much to our lives must, at their deaths, suddenly become nothing. For example, parents who have tragically lost a baby will describe the almost countless things that made their baby special, for only months, or even weeks’ old, that tiny infant will have already made its mark on the world. So in the case of John’s father, who had lived a very full and extended life, it is unsurprising that his presence should still be felt so strongly. The pain will lessen with the passage of time but the memory stays strong.

It is frequently reported that a deceased person is remembered with great clarity, and yet more youthful than in their final days. Unlike the living, time cannot age them. Some people derive much comfort from a sense that the person is near them, not only in the case of the recently bereaved, but often many years after the death, even in some cases carrying on conversations with the long departed.

There is of course no blueprint for the grieving process. The passing days and weeks may be difficult beyond words, together with a whole range of emotions to deal with following the loss. And yet somewhere among those feelings there are always gentle, guiding hands. I guess it's just being human.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Some feel great satisfaction in decrying the idea of a compassionate God.

Others feel sincere gratitude for the very presence of compassion.

 

[Charity]

Thank you so much for your post Cottage and I am glad that we can talk about these emotions even though we are so diverse. That's the way it should always be people willing to help each other with understanding and thoughtfulness....Thank you again.

 

[djewleu]

We have to INVENT gods that succor us in times of affliction, that's all.
And in our pain, we do invent gods, and then go promote them to other people in the same suffering.
It is human nature.
But as for a compassionate God out there, present with us in our hour of suffering, forget it.
If that compassionate God ever existed, IT would have, in the course of human history, been present in so many tragedies that would have turned IT into the most desensitized brutal deity!
Tell me about a compassionate God, and I will tell you about a God present in the very first case of human agony and suffering ignoring it.
Then came the second and the following millions and billions!
What an insensitivity!
We are ignored by gods.

 

[Riverwolf]

Some feel great satisfaction in decrying the idea of a compassionate God.

Others feel sincere gratitude for the very presence of compassion.

The water is either half full or almost empty, eh?

Personally, I think the wise simply state that there's water in the glass, and be grateful however much there is.